what does taper roll mean?

S

stomper

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
What does taper roll mean? It seems like i have a couple cues that have what im guessing is a taper roll and have some variation when rolled but when bolted up seem to roll pretty straight despite the taper roll. And does taper roll mean warped? I do have a few cues that are dead staright with no variation at all together or apart so i think i have a good idea what straight is but a little confused here :confused:
thanks for the help.
 
According to my understanding . It would be a variation in the amount of space between the table and the middle of the shaft when rolled.

I personally like to screw a cue together and roll it with the forearm on the rail with the butt resting on the table. Then watch for variation at the tip as you roll it back and forth. Much more accurate IMO
 
I'm Gonna Get Flamed For This..... Taper Roll, Is When The Shaft Is Straight, But Has Been Finish Tapered By Hand, Or Hand Tapered Through The Years Of Cleaning/sanding. The Shaft Will Spin True In A Lathe, But Because Of Different Pressures At Different Points On The Shaft During Hand Sanding, There Are High/low Spots That Can Be Seen When The Shaft Is Rolled On The Table. But When The Shaft Is Rolled Elevated On The Rail, The Tip Doesn't Move, And When Spun In A Lathe It Is Straight.

Just Because The Light Under A Shaft Varies A Little, Doesn't Mean The Shaft Isn't Straight.

For Example..... A Cuemaker Finishes A "perfect" Shaft, A Player Choose To "clean" The Shaft With Fine Sandpaper, But Applies More Pressure To One Side Of The Shaft, Than He Does To The Other. Causing A Low Spot. If You Were To Roll It On A Table, The Light Under It Would Vary, But If Spun In A Lathe The Tip Still Wouldn't Wobble, Hence The Shaft Is Straight, But Shows A Taper Variance. This Taper Variance Is What I Call Taper Roll. I Would Say Taper Variance But Most People Would Just Look At Me All Confused.

To Me That Is The Proper Way To Use The Term "taper Roll", Although I Have Seen It Used By Unscrupulous Charachters To Describe A Warped Cue.


THERE WAS A GOOD DISCUSSION ABOUT THIS HERE....http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=101737&page=3&highlight=TAPER+ROLL
 
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Most of the time "taper roll" does mean slightly warped, but I also agree with Marcus above, that it could also describe an inconsistency brought about by other means. E.g., hand sanding and maintenance. I would say that over time, most cues are not PERFECTLY straight.

Rolling a cue with the handle on the rail and the tip on the table is a way to observe a cue with a compound taper like a SouthWest, but spinning the cue on a lathe is the best way to see how straight it really is. IMO you should not freak out if the cue has a little "character."
Mr H
 
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what does taper roll mean?

There is no such thing.

It was a big fat lie somebody came up with to confuse people that didn't think it out far enough, into buying a cue that is warped or has some other issues. fully believing the cue is just fine.

A wobble can be caused by a few different things, but if it is round and straight it will not wobble no matter what number of various taper angles were used.
The two things i find most often that cause a wobble are: some warping in varying degrees, and a joint that needs to be faced off squarely to the butt and or shaft.
VERY few things other than those two examples can even be seen with the naked eye.

Ive heard all kinds of excuses though..uneven finish..uneven wrap..compound taper...:rolleyes:
 
stomper said:
What does taper roll mean? It seems like i have a couple cues that have what im guessing is a taper roll and have some variation when rolled but when bolted up seem to roll pretty straight despite the taper roll. And does taper roll mean warped? I do have a few cues that are dead staright with no variation at all together or apart so i think i have a good idea what straight is but a little confused here :confused:
thanks for the help.
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There is straight and there is not straight, and there is only one way to be certain which you have and that is have the butt and shaft separately placed between centers on a lathe and rotated. If between centers they are not straight then they are warped to some extent, wood moves sometimes. However, in many cases this will not effect the playability of a cue, unless you allow it to effect you mentally.

There is no such thing as taper roll, this term is just another way that sellers are telling you that the cue is warped, without saying warped. This way those who do not understand the difference will pay full price for something that should be discounted. Any shaft or butt that supposedly has a taper roll that is placed between centers and turned will have run out when using a dial indicator, that run out is a warp by the very term.

Just my thoughts
 
Marcus is correct in his description of taper roll.. although some use this description to sell a slightly warped shaft . Many shafts are straight.. but show small variances when observed by rolling them and looking for light shining underneath..
FAST_N_LOOSE said:
I'm Gonna Get Flamed For This..... Taper Roll, Is When The Shaft Is Straight, But Has Been Finish Tapered By Hand, Or Hand Tapered Through The Years Of Cleaning/sanding. The Shaft Will Spin True In A Lathe, But Because Of Different Pressures At Different Points On The Shaft During Hand Sanding, There Are High/low Spots That Can Be Seen When The Shaft Is Rolled On The Table. But When The Shaft Is Rolled Elevated On The Rail, The Tip Doesn't Move, And When Spun In A Lathe It Is Straight.

Just Because The Light Under A Shaft Varies A Little, Doesn't Mean The Shaft Isn't Straight.

For Example..... A Cuemaker Finishes A "perfect" Shaft, A Player Choose To "clean" The Shaft With Fine Sandpaper, But Applies More Pressure To One Side Of The Shaft, Than He Does To The Other. Causing A Low Spot. If You Were To Roll It On A Table, The Light Under It Would Vary, But If Spun In A Lathe The Tip Still Wouldn't Wobble, Hence The Shaft Is Straight, But Shows A Taper Variance. This Taper Variance Is What I Call Taper Roll. I Would Say Taper Variance But Most People Would Just Look At Me All Confused.

To Me That Is The Proper Way To Use The Term "taper Roll", Although I Have Seen It Used By Unscrupulous Charachters To Describe A Warped Cue.


THERE WAS A GOOD DISCUSSION ABOUT THIS HERE....http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=101737&page=3&highlight=TAPER+ROLL
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Mr Hoppe said:
Most of the time "taper roll" does mean slightly warped, but I also agree with Marcus above, that it could also describe an inconsistency brought about by other means. E.g., hand sanding and maintenance. I would say that over time, most cues are not PERFECTLY straight.

Rolling a cue with the handle on the rail and the tip on the table is a way to observe a cue with a compound taper like a SouthWest, but spinning the cue on a lathe is the best way to see how straight it really is. IMO you should not freak out if the cue has a little "character."
Mr H
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WELL SAID. precious few cues are dead straight.
 
stomper said:
What does taper roll mean? It seems like i have a couple cues that have what im guessing is a taper roll and have some variation when rolled but when bolted up seem to roll pretty straight despite the taper roll. And does taper roll mean warped? I do have a few cues that are dead staright with no variation at all together or apart so i think i have a good idea what straight is but a little confused here :confused:
thanks for the help.
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In my opinion, when someone tells me a shaft has a taper roll I immediately think that's a nice way to say the shaft is "Warped". Now that doesn't mean that the shaft isn't a playable descent shaft, but it does mean it's not dead straight.

James
 
cashin said:
Marcus is correct in his description of taper roll.. although some use this description to sell a slightly warped shaft . Many shafts are straight.. but show small variances when observed by rolling them and looking for light shining underneath..
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WOOOHOOO..... I'M GLAD SOMEBODY UNDERSTANDS WHAT I'M SAYING.

WE ALL KNOW THAT THE TERM HAS BEEN USED TO ALSO SELL WARPED SHAFTS, BUT THE DEFINITION AND EXPLANATION I GAVE IS WHAT THE ACTUAL TERM MEANS.

MARCUS<----- WILL TAKE AN OLD SCHOOL NON-PERFECT HAND TAPERED SHAFT ANYDAY.
 
Marcus is correct.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of the time when "taper roll" is used to describe a cue, the shaft is, in fact, warped.

I would estimate that 90% of the time I see "taper roll", it's a misnomer for a cue with some kind of problem.

As previously posted, LATHES do not lie. Regardless of tapers, hi/low spots, etc., the shaft must turn true on a lathe. If not, it's warped. Plain and simple.

-von
 
What about when the tip does not lift off the table at all?
There may be a difference in the amount of light you see, mid shaft, but the rest of the shaft is dead level on the table all the time.


Would that be a definition of taper roll?
 
stomper said:
What does taper roll mean? It seems like i have a couple cues that have what im guessing is a taper roll and have some variation when rolled but when bolted up seem to roll pretty straight despite the taper roll. And does taper roll mean warped? I do have a few cues that are dead staright with no variation at all together or apart so i think i have a good idea what straight is but a little confused here :confused:
thanks for the help.
Click to expand...
In my opinion, when someone tells me a shaft has a taper roll I immediately think that's a nice way to say the shaft is "Warped". Now that doesn't mean that the shaft isn't a playable descent shaft, but it does mean it's not dead straight.

James
 
Marcus's post is the perfect Webster's dictionary description.

I have to disagree with Jayman . I have seen wraps that make a perfectly straight cue roll funny. Put in a lathe and they are perfect.

I would say that if you have concerns when buying at a show like the SBE just walk it down to one of the repair guys and pay them to spin the cue . I had to do this once with a high end cog that I took on trade. Rolled funny on the table..... dead nuts in the lathe.
 
Several nicely answered and well-thought out posts here.

A lot of cue buyers don't understand or accept a cue having a shafts that's a few thousandths out. Wood is "alive", especially shaftwood, and tends to move around a little. When properly aged and treated, hopefully the amount it moves is very little. That's the whole point of selecting quality shaftwood and prepping it, giving it enough time to settle and see what it's gonna do. In my book many shafts with a little "taper roll" are still perfectly playable shafts. Dead straight is not the norm....shafts being a few thousandths out is.

Funny story....one time we took in an old Black cue that had three shafts. Two were out just a touch and one....well it had no fewer than 4 separate crooks in it. It looked much worse than the butt of Jay's old zebrawood Ginacue that's one ebay right now. That freakin shaft looked like a crankshaft. Now that certainly didn't have a "taper roll" !! :)
 
Call it what you want, but I have never seen a cue that rolled dead nuts straight with no variance of light under the shaft taper. It can happen many ways besides warpage, some have been posted already. A lathe is the only way to know for sure. In my experiences, joint facing has been the number one culprit for "roll". I have seen cues that roll great on the table, but show a little wobble when rolled on the rail, then perfect roll when rolled separately. IMO, taper roll can be caused by an unperfect taper, not warpage. It can also be used to describe a slight warp in the taper of a shaft. Either way, it's a foggy area between buyers & sellers. I for one would never try selling any cue to a guy who thinks the cue should be dead nuts perfect. Those guys nit pick everything & it's usually due to some ignorance, inexperience. It's just not worth the frustration. Anybody who truly knows cues will know what to look for & where, and know what's acceptable & what's not. Those guys are easy to deal with. There are several ways to use the term, "taper roll". I always thought of it as a generic, common way of describing very minor run-out in the cue that is neglegent but polite to point out.
 
FAST_N_LOOSE said:
I'm Gonna Get Flamed For This..... Taper Roll, Is When The Shaft Is Straight, But Has Been Finish Tapered By Hand, Or Hand Tapered Through The Years Of Cleaning/sanding. The Shaft Will Spin True In A Lathe, But Because Of Different Pressures At Different Points On The Shaft During Hand Sanding, There Are High/low Spots That Can Be Seen When The Shaft Is Rolled On The Table. But When The Shaft Is Rolled Elevated On The Rail, The Tip Doesn't Move, And When Spun In A Lathe It Is Straight.

Just Because The Light Under A Shaft Varies A Little, Doesn't Mean The Shaft Isn't Straight.

For Example..... A Cuemaker Finishes A "perfect" Shaft, A Player Choose To "clean" The Shaft With Fine Sandpaper, But Applies More Pressure To One Side Of The Shaft, Than He Does To The Other. Causing A Low Spot. If You Were To Roll It On A Table, The Light Under It Would Vary, But If Spun In A Lathe The Tip Still Wouldn't Wobble, Hence The Shaft Is Straight, But Shows A Taper Variance. This Taper Variance Is What I Call Taper Roll. I Would Say Taper Variance But Most People Would Just Look At Me All Confused.

To Me That Is The Proper Way To Use The Term "taper Roll", Although I Have Seen It Used By Unscrupulous Characters To Describe A Warped Cue.
quote )

Very well said, Originally the term taper roll was used to describe certain makers cues with compound tapers, The term just grew from there.
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me too

lenoxmjs said:
Marcus's post is the perfect Webster's dictionary description.

I have to disagree with Jayman . I have seen wraps that make a perfectly straight cue roll funny. Put in a lathe and they are perfect.

I would say that if you have concerns when buying at a show like the SBE just walk it down to one of the repair guys and pay them to spin the cue . I had to do this once with a high end cog that I took on trade. Rolled funny on the table..... dead nuts in the lathe.
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I'm in with Marcus, CLEAR as the description can get. I am also in with the statement that there may be no word abused more in the cue world by unscrupulous sellers.

The lathe does not lie, and rolling the cue on the table and rail, are as close as you can get without one. IMHO
 
stomper said:
Sorry if i posted this in wrong section
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You know, This used to be a fine section on the forum. A place where you could come to buy and sell. Ask information about an unknown cue, Best way to ship or accept payment, Talk about specs and what you should have done with your new cue that's being built. Even ask questions like yours.

Used to be...

I don't know if it's from new members or seasoned members who became rough. It's just not what it used to be.

Seems like it's now a hard, If you're not buying or selling then don't say anything section.

I still like the section but do not spend no where near as much time in it as I used to.

Pretty sure others can appreciate what I'm saying and agree with me.
 
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