What english is best for the 8-ball second ball break?

[peppersauce]

Watch Corey's 2nd ball break here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzFm_kyn1p0

And Corey vs. Shane here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqzMx4v09cU

This is exactly what I attempt to do every time I break the 2nd ball.

I really prefer a head ball break with more power but most of the places I play 8-ball at either have mismatched ball sets, flimsy racks, a rack area that has been beat to death, or I'm playing against someone who either can't or won't give a good rack. Under those conditions, I get MUCH better results with a 2nd ball break.

If it's a bad rack, for whatever reason, you're going to have clusters regardless of where you break from or how hard you break. At least with the 2nd ball break I make a ball most of the time.

 

[chefjeff]

I tend to look and see if the rack is turned to expose more of the 2nd ball. It has a bearing on which side I'll break from though I prefer the right side although I'm right handed

I used to do that when my opponent racked but now in VNEA we rack our own and I make a square, tight rack so there is no advantage to either side.

Give the left side a try. I was surprised when I switched as to how much more natural it seemed to be. Besides, Miz would kick my ass so I listen to him.

Jeff Livingston

 

[justadub]

Pat, it depends on who you are playing. If you spread them wide open, and don't make a ball, against a good player you just lost. With the second ball break, the balls will tend to stay more in the lower half of the table with a lot of clusters.

If you aren't making balls with a solid break, then try the second ball break IF you are a decent 14.1 player. Especially if your opponent does not play 14.1. You will have many more clusters that you will be able to deal with, while your opponent will have a lot of difficulty with the clusters should he get to the table. The odds will be more in your favor.

In my league play, there are more than a few folks that shoot pretty well, but aren't very patient. I like to use the second ball break vs them, because of the clusters it can create. Not that I'm great at breaking out clusters, but the impatient players try to do too much and make my job easier.

Plus the occasional cheap win by making the 8 is nice too

 

[poolguy4u]

What english is best for the 8-ball second ball break?

I use low-outside and try to get the cue ball to play off the long rail and back into the rack. I've also been thinking about trying to use center-inside to give the cue ball a chance to run three rails and possibly come out to the center of the table.

What do most people prefer?

:smile:


On every table, it is a little different. Just because the tables look all the same and the balls are the same, when it comes to breaking, different English is different on every table if you want to make the eight ball.

And I really don't care what anyone else says. Yes, sidespin matters left or right. you can do all the test you want, but it does make a difference.

 

[Cory in DC]

When I break the second ball, I stay away from low inside, because more often than not, the cueball becomes trapped down by the foot rail.

Center with a tip of low, works best for me. I find it easier to make a ball or two on the break more consistently with the second ball break, however this break tends to leave more clusters than a head ball break.

I agree about low inside tending to trap the cueball by the foot rail. When I'm not breaking well, and I'm giving someone a spot, I use that strategically. If I make a ball, then even from the foot rail, I can usually find a shot, a safe, or a way to leave only the less attractive suit. If I don't make a ball on the break, then my opponent has a tough start.

This often works well for me when I'm playing, say, a 5 or 6 in APA.

Cory

 

[Grantstew]

Who cares about making the 8 on the break, that does not win you the frame.

 

[ShootingArts]

been there!

Back in the mid 80's I was playing in a bar for 5.00 a rack. I kept the table all night. When every one got tired of challenging me an old man who had been sitting by the table all night got up and said he would play me some.

I broke and ran a few balls and he ran the table. He then proceeded to make the 8 on the break 5 times in a row and I said I quit. I then asked him how he was making the 8 every time .

He told me ...one tip below center and a tip inside. I tried it several times but kept scratching or not making it so I never tried any more.

I do t know how many times be could have done it but 5 in a row at 5.00 a rack I was not willing to find out. He put a dent in my winnings real quick like.

Been there! A youngster came through the little bar I was in that I had never heard of, kid named Johnny Archer. He was known a bit then but got known a little better afterwards! Seven foot Valley, He won the flip and showed me the eight on the break three times, calling the pocket. It was costing me five a game and I had broken a twenty when I lost the first.

I was well known in the bar and everyone was telling me to quit. I said I was going to see this one more time. Maybe that caused him to intentionally or unintentionally take a little off the cue ball. After calling the corner pocket on the first break and the side the next two he called the side again and the eight slow rolled towards it yet again. It stopped an inch or less shy of the side pocket, partially in the jaws and dead in line to fall. He was using a second ball break with the cue ball just off the rail at the first diamond and breaking across the corner pocket.

A couple games later I let him shoot again and that shot scared the hell out of me too!

I never had much luck with a second ball break myself. I used one ball off center, right or left, with a bunch of low and a little left hitting the head ball. Pulled the cue ball back out of the way of traffic and usually something fell. If not I went to the edges of the table with the same spin, it was pretty much the only spin I used breaking on a bar table. All else failed straight up the middle and rip the rack open. Like others, I often found taking a little off of my break speed dropped balls when blasting didn't.

Hu

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Why would low inside increase your chances of making the 8?

Because people like to say things without having a lot of info. They heard it from someone, and even though there are multiple variables involved, they only heard about 1 variable and thing that is the answer.

The best way to increase your odds of making the 8 on the break is to carefully inspect the rack. There are 6 gaps to look at, with some secondary contacts that matter under certain combinations of those 6. How full you hit the second ball is probably the next most important thing. Generally speaking, the main purpose of draw is for cueball position. I have become quite good at making the 8 on the break on a bar table. On a big table, I don't think that break is the most effective. Left or right on the cue ball has almost no impact on where the 8 ball goes.

Best bet, learn to hit the 2nd ball extremely accurately with straight draw. Once you can do that, you can experiment with the fullness of hit. Where the spaces in the rack are determines which side to break from and how full to hit the 2nd ball.

Think about it

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

It wouldn't. These sidespin stories are old wives' tales.

Your best bet is to get as much power into the break as possible, so hit as close to centerball as possible while still controlling the CB. I don't think the second ball break is best for this.

pj
chgo

Not true Patrick. Hitting the 2nd ball is extremely effective at making the 8 on the break. My first match at this years APA 8 Ball singles was against Brian Parks. The very first shot of the tourney, I made the 8 on the break. Brian proceeded to make it twice that match! Including (painfully) at hill hill! He pretty much broke exactly like I did. So we both apparently figured out the same type of break (both hitting the second ball from the same spot at roughly the same speed with mild draw). That resulted in 3 8oB out of 9 breaks. Not too bad I'd say. I probably make the 8 on the break about once in a hundred breaks crushing the head ball. Spaces in the rack make all the difference of course. Although even with a Magic Rack, the 2nd ball break is vastly more effective for making the 8 on the break.

Although I agree completely that left or right english has little or no effect. Follow and draw has slightly more influence, but not nearly so much as the fullness of hit and the condition of the rack.

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

It may move the 8 ball more, but at what cost? How many times is any ball made both ways? I'm betting less with the 2nd ball break, simply because CB power is wasted with the non-square hit on the OB and putting spin on the CB. Does the 8 ball go in enough times to make up for the extra dry breaks? I doubt it.

I think the stats would show that a simple head ball break with no spin gives the best chance to win.

pj
chgo

I think you are wrong. Certainly on a Valley bar box. I think the odds of making a ball are at least as good if not better with the second ball break. The second ball break seems to produce better results with a wider variety of racks. Another thing you may not be considering: for some reason with the second ball break, it seems that when you make a ball the rack spreads out pretty good, and when you don't it stays clustered. I think the advantage of this perceived phenomenon is readily apparent.

As someone who has devoted a LOT of time to dialing in the various breaks on bar tables for 8 ball and 9 ball, I can assure you that the evidence I've witnessed does not support your assumption. If you can hit the head ball REALLY hard (say 27mph+), sometimes you can get away with really smashing the front ball and consistently making something.

On a 9' table, everything I just said is out the window. I prefer the head ball break there.

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

This.

You can hit the 2nd ball pretty full with a little practice and about a tip below center will take you to the side rail, then back into the pack again.

"Back into the pack"....why do people say this? It is a terrible way to break, and has almost zero impact on making the 8 ball. It does, however, radically increase the chances of scratching in one of the rack end corners or coming up hooked even on a great spread.

In pool, you want to *limit* the number of collisions, not increase them. Most balls *intentionally* made on the break go straight in. One in is enough.

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

I will have to agree with this view after attending the accu stats 8 ball invitational and re watching the matches on dvd. Earl, darren, shane, alex p, francisco busta, and mika all broke strong and with full hit dead on the head ball. A couple of eight off the break, but all racks exploded open with zero clusters. A ton of break and runs. Quite impressive and proved to me once and for all how professional 8 ball is played.

...on a 9' table. Pro's playing on a bar table almost exclusively hit the 2nd ball. Why do they do that?

KMRUNOUT

PS (search youtube for "USBTC 8 ball")

 

[KMRUNOUT]

On most BB tables I use one tip of low with 1/2 a tip inside, hitting the 2nd ball. On 9' a table I place CB in center of table and 1/2 tip of low hitting head ball square, trying to leave CB near center of table. Johnnyt

On a big table, you don't hit it low or you don't leave it in the center of the table, unless you break *really* soft. Maybe you cue up low but you don't hit it there.

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Under what rules is making the 8-ball on the break desirable? Does APA count that as a win?

Yes. Although interesting thing: the 8 ball is a ball, and making a ball on the break is desirable in all rules I can think of.

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

I believe the reason this works is, the CB is swerving into the second ball. This is one of the reasons it works at a slightly slower speed. I've had better luck on the 8ft and BB with this, than on the 9ft.
Using just inside wont get the same results.It has to have low inside with a very slight elevation.

At medium break speed, how much do you think the ball swerves? Do you think it is even remotely close to the squirt imparted by the lowest deflection cue out there?

I strongly doubt your assumption.

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is what Miz said in that video I mentioned and that is a right handed player should break from the left side of the kitchen, not the right side as most seem to do.

That helps make a better bridge, imho.

Jeff Livingston

The rack determines which side to break from most effectively.

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

This is exactly what I attempt to do every time I break the 2nd ball.

I really prefer a head ball break with more power but most of the places I play 8-ball at either have mismatched ball sets, flimsy racks, a rack area that has been beat to death, or I'm playing against someone who either can't or won't give a good rack. Under those conditions, I get MUCH better results with a 2nd ball break.

If it's a bad rack, for whatever reason, you're going to have clusters regardless of where you break from or how hard you break. At least with the 2nd ball break I make a ball most of the time.

Very well said. This, in a nutshell, is why I use the 2nd ball break on Valley 7'ers. That and of course the occasional free win of making the 8 on the break.

Wells said.

KMRUNOUT

 

[(((Satori)))]

I think you are wrong. Certainly on a Valley bar box. I think the odds of making a ball are at least as good if not better with the second ball break. The second ball break seems to produce better results with a wider variety of racks. Another thing you may not be considering: for some reason with the second ball break, it seems that when you make a ball the rack spreads out pretty good, and when you don't it stays clustered. I think the advantage of this perceived phenomenon is readily apparent.

As someone who has devoted a LOT of time to dialing in the various breaks on bar tables for 8 ball and 9 ball, I can assure you that the evidence I've witnessed does not support your assumption. If you can hit the head ball REALLY hard (say 27mph+), sometimes you can get away with really smashing the front ball and consistently making something.

On a 9' table, everything I just said is out the window. I prefer the head ball break there.

KMRUNOUT

I disagree on the second ball break giving a better spread. The reason I preferthe head on break is 100% because of the better spreads. The second ball break tends to send all of the balls to one side of the table.

 

[peppersauce]

"Back into the pack"....why do people say this? It is a terrible way to break, and has almost zero impact on making the 8 ball. It does, however, radically increase the chances of scratching in one of the rack end corners or coming up hooked even on a great spread.

In pool, you want to *limit* the number of collisions, not increase them. Most balls *intentionally* made on the break go straight in. One in is enough.

KMRUNOUT

I never break 8-ball with the intention of making the 8...just like I never break 9 or 10 ball with the intention of making the 9 or 10. I don't break one pocket with the intention of making the wing ball either. I read the OP as, what english do you prefer to use when using a second ball break in 8-ball? Then everyone started talking about making the 8 on the break.

It's funny...I've had guys actually get mad at me for making the 8 on the break. I apologized to a guy a while back because it was a pivotal match for our two teams and I snapped it in on him. I said sorry and he angrily replied, "Why? That's what you were going for!" Actually...not so much. It's a nice bonus when it goes, but no.

Why do people like to assume you're trying to make the 8 when hitting the second ball? I don't play a lot of league but Iplayed in a BCA league years ago where an 8 on the break didn't count and lots of guys used the 2nd ball break.

JMO, but I don't think making the money ball on the break should be a win in any game.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

I disagree on the second ball break giving a better spread. The reason I preferthe head on break is 100% because of the better spreads. The second ball break tends to send all of the balls to one side of the table.

Besides you, who said the 2nd ball break gives a *better* spread? Not me. I agree the head ball break spreads the balls more evenly.

KMRUNOUT