What is deamed as a solution?

SC02GTP

SC02GTP

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
A cue gets sent back to you with a roll in the butt. This cue was worked on previously by yourself to fix this by the customer. The customer paid in full for the repair work and it has been a year since. The cost of repair was as much as the retail value of the cue after adding up all of the other repair work and extras that were ordered. This is also one of your own cues and only you have worked on it.

The cue has never been abused, never left in a vehicle for more than an hour, and stored in a case and in a controlled enviorment. Other than a few nicks in the finish, the cue still looks as it did over a year ago with no indicators like dents, big chips of finish missing, or, pieces of wood missing.

How would you handle this situation with the customer as a cue maker that stands behind his work? Do you think a replacement of the butt is asking for too much? Should this roll be the owner's deal? What is the best solution?
 
Is this a hypothetical or is this a case that you are actually involved in?
There is no blanket solution and no one else can dictate how a particular CM should handle this.
Popular opinion via the peanut-gallery means little here. This is btwn the builder & the client.
We have the benefit of your side of the issue but what about the other side?
You don't state whether the cue was bought new or acquired on the secondary market.
I'm sure that there is more to this story than what is contained in your post. There usually is.

See, what a lot of people fail to realize is that most CMs will go out of their way to please and
accommodate a client and resolve any issues that arise.
The client has no right to make unreasonable demands or to use summoned peer pressure to get their way.

There are 2 points that I would submit here to put this in perspective.
#1 - There is nothing written in stone as to how the CM should respond. There is no binding set of rules.
It's up to the builder and how he chooses to respond to the issue. He knows the issue better than the
peanut-gallery and maybe even the owner of the cue.

#2 - A cue is made mostly of wood, an organic, nature-made material. It's subject to move at will.
No CM in his right mind will guarantee that a piece of wood will stay straight in every environment.

From what I've read in your post, this issue was addressed once already and is now repeating itself.
Could it be that your environment is substantially different than that of the CMs?
I know you spoke of a controlled-environment for storing the cue when not in use.
It causes me to chuckle whenever I read of a cue and a controlled-environment in the same sentence.
Sir, we don't live in a controlled-environment and neither does this cue.
A cue needs to and will acclimate to it's environment.
Periodically storing a cue in a controlled-environment may actually be compounding the problem.

I'm not shooting from the hip in my response to your post as I'm actually involved in a similar situation.
A cue of mine was purchased over 2 yrs ago and was sent to S. Carolina. To the best of my knowledge, the
cue remained straight for that period of time.
Then after 3 hurricanes rolled through back to back to back, the cue decides enough is enough and starts to move.
This is a wrapless cue with a Hi-fig. BEM wrap area. It's not a cheap cue.
The cue is sent back to the point of purchase, shown to me and I agree to 'fix' it.
Since my workload has doubled since Thanksgiving, I can't get at it right away so I leave it to hang (in my shop).
A month or two later, I take the cue down and chuck it in the lathe to see exactly where the problem lies.
Guess what??? The cue is now 95% back to being perfectly straight and I haven't touched it.
My shop is by no means a controlled-environment. It's more like real-world conditions for my area.
I run the furnace in the winter and A/C in the summer. Sometimes it's dry and sometimes the roof leaks.
Point being, these cues see a wide range of environmental changes and for the most part, they love it here.
Unfortunately, there are no hurricanes on Lake George, otherwise the cues would be subjected to them also.
Discovering that the cue went back to nearly straight was not really a surprise. I somewhat expected it.
What it did do was to complicate how I would proceed from here, knowing that the cue had to go back to
S. Carolina and would be subject to a similar environment that caused it to move in the first place.
The cue went back on the hook until I could figure a solution.
The solution I chose was to install a cored handle/wrap-area. Nothing else on the cue had moved.
I'm not a fan of coring but I do realize that it has it's place and this instance was one of those times/places.
I'm not suggesting that this is the cure for your cue and far be it from me to tell your CM what to do.
My decision to core was based on the idea that I wanted the cue to have the best chance at staying straight
once the cue is sent back to it's southern environment. That's probably the best I can do and all I can do.
The cue is close to 3 yrs old now so it's considered used. I'm not going to replace the cue nor will I guarantee it forever.
 
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As a cuemaker I have no idea what kind of treatment any cue has been subjected to. Also, every customer will assure the maker that they did not abuse the cue. VERY often I find out that they LIED. A case in point; I made & sold a cue to a local player. A year later he brings me the butt & it is warped. I assure him I will replace it, but asked for the shaft, also. BOTH the shaft & butt are warped in the same place. After asking around I find out this cue was in the trunk of his car. He had a flat tire & forgot that the cue was in there too. 3 days latter he found his cue, with the flat tire on it. It had bowed where the tire layed on it. Since then, I make it very clear to all customers, that my cues are guaranteed against warpage ...til you reach your car. I have been lied to so many times, I feel like a preist. I can't tell you how many cues have a permanent home, in the trunk of a car. NO GUARANTEE...JER
 
This is a hard one. As a cuemaker myself, I stand behind all my work. However, like BHQ said, you never know how the stick is treated once it leaves the shop. Most do stay in the trunk to be banged around and exposed to all the elements. I live in Michigan so the elements are not in my favor, ever! On the other hand, if it is an inexpensive cue, make him another one and replace it for free. If you do right he might tell a few friends and that might lead to more sales. HOWEVER, if you dont make it right, he could tell everyone he knows not to shop at your store or buy any products or services from you. This is a touchy subject that has no real winner. Sorry to hear for your misfortune and good luck.
 
There was much discussion about warranty on cues back when the Blue Book of Pool Cues second edition came out. Many cuemakers decided that the wording of something like "Lifetime limited warranty against manufacturer defects not including the finish, warpage or abuse."
With wood being wood I feel that is probably still a valid way to go. I noticed Joss still has something similar on their site. McDermott warranties against warpage. But then reasonable roll is open to interpretation.
 
2 cents worth from a cue user not a maker
the customer paid for the first repair
he didnt press for a replacement at that time shows his intentions were good
if you cant figure out why the butt warped in the first place
i would replace the butt for good will with the understanding
no guarantees no warranty
 
SC02GTP said:
A cue gets sent back to you with a roll in the butt. This cue was worked on previously by yourself to fix this by the customer. The customer paid in full for the repair work and it has been a year since. The cost of repair was as much as the retail value of the cue after adding up all of the other repair work and extras that were ordered. This is also one of your own cues and only you have worked on it.

The cue has never been abused, never left in a vehicle for more than an hour, and stored in a case and in a controlled enviorment. Other than a few nicks in the finish, the cue still looks as it did over a year ago with no indicators like dents, big chips of finish missing, or, pieces of wood missing.

How would you handle this situation with the customer as a cue maker that stands behind his work? Do you think a replacement of the butt is asking for too much? Should this roll be the owner's deal? What is the best solution?
Click to expand...

It is governed by 'Reasonable expectations". A cue is an organic piece work that under even the best of treatment will not stay perfect. In most all cases these future imperfections will have little to no bearing on the playability of the cue. It's value may suffer but the cue was not an investment in the first place, it is a tool to be used and so being is subject ware from use and environment.
 
Hi,

At this point the solution is a tough one because the cue is at final dimension. Fixing that cue means changing the dimensional geometry at least a little. A very difficult place for both CM and player. The best solution is prevention of the warp in the first place. Below, is described what I feel helps in that area and my experience, for what that's worth::duck:

About 6 years ago one of my first 50 beta test A-Joint cues went out from forearm wood movement. I built a new cue and that was it. It was my 2nd warped cue. From that day on I changed to full coring my cues which I had been beta testing for over a year.

Today not one out of the 80+ cored cues I have built has had a problem after they arrived in the field in the player guardianship. If one on my cored cues comes up lame with no signs of abuse today, I would gladly build a new cue to protect my brand.

Customers must come first 100% of the time. There are too many horror stories out there knocking CMs ability to stand behind their work. No need for that. Even if you are 100% right, bad mouthing can't help anyone.

Quite frankly today knowing what I know now, I would quit cue making if my handle and forearm were joined via an A- Joint again and not on a 29" dowel because I don't like to work for free and I could never refuse to stand behind a cue I build. If the forearm or the handle wood moves, the honeymoon is over.

I built my last A-Joint cue 3 years ago because the customer requested it but guess what, "I got it in writing that it was not guaranteed for no warp. I sleep very good at night and if that cue came back to be I would honor my contract and tell him that I build full cored cue and he got what he requested. After 3 years I think I am safe and will not have that conversation.

Also I don't get involved with to many woods that are problematic as far as movement goes and pretty much stick to about 8 to 10 woods only. Except for a few types of wood, I buy my wood kiln dried and let them acclimate in my shop only a minimum of a few weeks before coring and turning and I never have to go through the hassle of taking turns over time. Everything is turned on the core.

Points are installed after the forearm is on the dowel after the centers and taper are established. They stay real even this way which is also a big plus as I see it.

I know many CMs that have aged a lot of wood and have a process for building fine cues with A-Joints and I respect that. I am not saying it is a bad way to do it. That would be stupid. I am saying that full coring from my seat gives me the peace of mind after a sale and I love the quite hit produced by the maple core which defines the hit of my cue.

JMHO,

Rick
Here is a cue being built at this time in my shop. The forearm was tapered between centers on a straight seasoned 3/4" maple dowel.

IMG_4103.jpg

V grooves milled while the dowel is being held within the 5C indexer as the headstock.

IMG_4183.jpg

IMG_4269.jpg

Milling gaps filled with epoxy for stability during milling

IMG_4272.jpg

Because everything is cut between centers or the collet chuck, the point start even and stay even until final turn dimension. This cue was just turned down from .940 to .900 and all points ( low, high and intermediate ) did not move because the tapering was done on the dowel between established centers from the get go. The points on this cue will stay even to final with out any shimming or re centering. Even the slightest variation of concentricity during joining will tend to make points move on an A Joint cue
IMG_4273.jpg

IMG_4274.jpg

IMG_4278.jpg

I did not change to full coring because my a-joints were not dead on. I did so because they were dead on and I just don't like trusting wood in a cue without and stable skeleton structure anchored with polyurethane expanding glue. Last A-Joint Cue I made at customer's request and no guarntee!
IMG_3251-2.jpg

IMG_3261.jpg
 
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IMG_3251-2.jpg

Sorry but those are some nasty threads Rick.
That configuration is a rattle waiting to happen imo.
The steel becomes a crowbar inside that veneered forearm imo.
Wood to wood or to phenolic there would be much sturdier and safer from rattles imo.

But, this thread is about a repair job that went bad.
I asked if the handle was replaced and warped.

Right now, we don't know what warped.
 
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cuemaker.mi said:
This is a hard one. As a cuemaker myself, I stand behind all my work. However, like BHQ said, you never know how the stick is treated once it leaves the shop. Most do stay in the trunk to be banged around and exposed to all the elements. I live in Michigan so the elements are not in my favor, ever! On the other hand, if it is an inexpensive cue, make him another one and replace it for free. If you do right he might tell a few friends and that might lead to more sales. HOWEVER, if you dont make it right, he could tell everyone he knows not to shop at your store or buy any products or services from you. This is a touchy subject that has no real winner. Sorry to hear for your misfortune and good luck.
Click to expand...
this BHQ never said nuttin'
is there another BHQ? BHQ 2.0 :p
 
JoeyInCali said:
Sorry but those are some nasty threads Rick.
That configuration is a rattle waiting to happen imo.
The steel becomes a crowbar inside that veneered forearm imo.
Wood to wood or to phenolic there would be much sturdier and safer from rattles imo.

But, this thread is about a repair job that went bad.
I asked if the handle was replaced and warped.

Right now, we don't know what warped.
Click to expand...

Hey Joe,

I like nasty threads. Those threads are 1/2" 13 tpi and that A Joint is a dowel A-Joint, not a handle. I did not rely on the threads to create the strength of the A-Joint but the high tensile epoxy in combo with the treading which acts as keyways of sort.

When using a dowel for the A- joint joinery instead of the tenoned handle, I have found that you do not have to leave a inner face gap and buzz ring system. Because the handle and ring is installed after on the dowel you never get an end grain based buzz. Just fill with glue with a tenon hydraulic relief groove and tighten it down all of the way to the inner faces are slammed making sure the boring and tenon is a close fit. The extra tolerance in the tapped treading allows the glue to get in there. I would never want to have a tight fitting thread interface in that area. And without weight at the a joint the cue needs the forward weight which the wood tenon is without. In my full cored cues I embed a weight bolt behind my pin for that reason alone. JMO

I know that you like to live thread and yes my threads are tapped, but I bet you can't pull them apart with 2 men and a boy unglued. After the high tensile HY-Sol epoxy is in there, that joint's strength doesn't care if those threads are tapped or live threaded because the yield of the epoxy is much higher than the modulus of the wood threads.

A warp is a warp is a warp. There are ways to reduce or avoid the incidence of this happenstance. That is why I have shared my take on the subject. I don't care how anybody else joins a cue, or how they thread a hole, I am just wasting some time while processing shafts into my automatic tapering machine and practicing peer check and review. Who knows maybe I'll learn something from a meaningful rebuttal.

Good cue making,

Rick
 
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A warp is a warp is a warp. There are ways to reduce or avoid the incidence of this happenstance. That is why I have shared my take on the subject.

Rick
Click to expand...
Do you know if the forearm or the handle warped ?
Or the A-joint moved ?
 
JoeyInCali said:
Do you know if the forearm or the handle warped ?
Or the A-joint moved ?
Click to expand...

Joe,

What ever it was you are looking at major surgery and some time in ICU, ie refinish, rewrap and the works after the job is done.

Not a fun place to be for sure. Sometimes it is easier to build a new cue.

Rick
 
scdiveteam said:
Joe,

What ever it was you are looking at major surgery and some time in ICU, ie refinish, rewrap and the works after the job is done.

Not a fun place to be for sure. Sometimes it is easier to build a new cue.

Rick
Click to expand...

So, we really don't know what warped.
Any construction advice now is moot.

He is asking for a deemed solution.
 
The particular instance that I talked about, was a painful lesson. I replaced the cue, then found out that the guy was bragging about how it happened & how he screwed me out of a new cue. THAT, was when I stopped giving a guarantee...JER
 
A few more facts

This cue was bought off of the secondary market with the existing problem. The cue was 10 yrs old before getting sent for back for a repair.

The "A" joint is in question, the forearm moves up and down below the pin a few 16th of an inch. When joined with a shaft, this issue is magnified 100 times. The shafts with this cue are either original or were built for the cue when the repair work was ordered.

The climate is different where the cue lives than where the cue was constructed. Here, it is a 4 season year, there, lucky to get 2 true seasons a year. Humidity is highter here in the summer.

The owner of the cue could have had a new cue constructed for less than the work and extras ordered, the owner wanted THIS cue because they felt like the cue was going to be a life time player based on the feel and hit of the cue. The owner wanted THIS cue to be fixed and straight. No mentions were made that the repair for the warp would not be perminent.

The owner does not and is not looking for a hand out, only to be made whole on the deal. The CM will not be thrown under a bus or a nasty thread started with the results of the outcome, this is not the intent of the owner or this thread. The owner put out over 2k in repair work that could have been better spent on a new cue from the same builder if there could have been an issue with the wood moveing again down the road.
 
The "A" joint is in question, the forearm moves up and down below the pin a few 16th of an inch. When joined with a shaft, this issue is magnified 100 times. The shafts with this cue are either original or were built for the cue when the repair work was ordered.
The cue wobbles below the joint pin ?
That's not the A-joint.
That's the nose.
It's not repairable.
 
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