You're very welcome. And thank you for letting me explain myself, not that I should need to.
Regards,
Dave
What is feel aiming?
- Thread starter JoeyA
- Start date
Regards,
Dave
Yes. If you say that "aiming by feel" = "aiming by memory", and that "aiming by memory" is a system, then you have a different definition of the word "system" than I have. Or is it just a different way of saying that in the end everybody has to hit the objectball at the right spot in order to make it?
You missed the point of what I was saying. "Geometrical correctness" does not necessary equate to superiority due to human perception (which is different for everyone). We often get caught up in the red herring arguments, imo, of this and that having to do with exactness. The point I tried to make was even though I believe pivot systems are exact, it's a moot point if people can't perceive this and that.
It's the method that helps the shooter BEST PERCEIVE (I bolded this for you) this and that in a repeatable way is king. There is no one method that's best for everyone - since everyone perceives differently.
Logically, we should shift our online discussions to just that. That's why "feel" is a common answer because we all see/feel differently and the shooter usually can't describe it because it's unique to the way they see/perceive (and that can't be conveyed).
Dave
If your belief is math-based, then you should be able to show it.
pj
chgo
Or if he'd just lined up dead center and stayed there...that might have worked, also. :thumbup::thumbup:
Working on it.
Sent from my SPH-M910 using Tapatalk
Sent from my SPH-M910 using Tapatalk
It seems to me by this post that you didn't take the dvd to the table and work with it. WHY NOT? Forget about your number 2 above. The alignment and pivot are pretty obvious with any pool knowledge, so if it doesn't look right after the pivot, stand up realign using a different reference line. 6 different lines of aim cover all the shots you will want to shoot, without adjustments.
Also have you tried to implement the system in reality?
I am not buying the "memory" comments.
I don't think you need to memorize shots to be able to make them.
You can however... memorize a method of alignment and make shots you have never seen before.
Methods of alignment are simply tools that help a person gain feel to make a shot.
Everyone ultimately shoots by feel....Everyone also uses some sort of method to gain that feel.
The real trick in all this is to find the right tool....Some tools are real easy to use but are not accurate enough to be consistent.....Others may be real accurate, but are so complicated to use that they end up distracting you from being able to gain the proper feel.
I use the "Bass Ackwards Alignment Method" to gain feel...it is simple and accurate.......:wink:
I don't think you need to memorize shots to be able to make them.
You can however... memorize a method of alignment and make shots you have never seen before.
Methods of alignment are simply tools that help a person gain feel to make a shot.
Everyone ultimately shoots by feel....Everyone also uses some sort of method to gain that feel.
The real trick in all this is to find the right tool....Some tools are real easy to use but are not accurate enough to be consistent.....Others may be real accurate, but are so complicated to use that they end up distracting you from being able to gain the proper feel.
I use the "Bass Ackwards Alignment Method" to gain feel...it is simple and accurate.......:wink:
It seems that "feel aiming" is something that most people believe you kind of learn as you do.
There is a method, a "system" to feel aiming just like any other aiming system. The pre-shot routine to feel aiming is not really any different than some other aiming system like CTE/Pro One. You just consciously choose "different" things to look at/ "aim at" and combine that with where you want the cue to hit and where you want it to go after contact is made.
The actual execution isn't much different either, except for the manual pivoting that is part of the manual part of CTE/Pro One. You aren't thinking about much of anything once you bear down on the shot. I guess some people think there is a lot more to CTE/Pro One than there really is. For me, I don't really see but one large difference between feel aiming and CTE/Pro One aiming and that is the pivot. In one respect the pivoting is an opportunity for the shooter to get his cue tip behind the most important part of the cue ball, that being the center of the cue ball, at least the vertical center. The only downside if it can be considered a downside is that there are specfic steps that CTE/Pro One requires where as the "feel aiming" is such that you just keep on moving around until you find the right alignment and the right aim line for the cue ball.
I believe that for people who have trouble aiming (sending the cue ball where it needs to go in order to make the ball), will probably have an easier time using CTE/Pro One than "feel aiming".
I don't have any trouble using either one and that doesn't make me special, I guess I put in the time on CTE/Pro One and it seems relatively easy, finite and accurate to me. The manual movements of pivoting have a plus and a minus. The minus is it is an extra step but the plus is you make a special effort to get the cue tip to the center of the cue ball. Like Mike mentioned earlier, some of these steps help "occupy" the conscious mind, yet allow the subconsious to go ahead and pull the trigger when all is good.
There is a method, a "system" to feel aiming just like any other aiming system. The pre-shot routine to feel aiming is not really any different than some other aiming system like CTE/Pro One. You just consciously choose "different" things to look at/ "aim at" and combine that with where you want the cue to hit and where you want it to go after contact is made.
The actual execution isn't much different either, except for the manual pivoting that is part of the manual part of CTE/Pro One. You aren't thinking about much of anything once you bear down on the shot. I guess some people think there is a lot more to CTE/Pro One than there really is. For me, I don't really see but one large difference between feel aiming and CTE/Pro One aiming and that is the pivot. In one respect the pivoting is an opportunity for the shooter to get his cue tip behind the most important part of the cue ball, that being the center of the cue ball, at least the vertical center. The only downside if it can be considered a downside is that there are specfic steps that CTE/Pro One requires where as the "feel aiming" is such that you just keep on moving around until you find the right alignment and the right aim line for the cue ball.
I believe that for people who have trouble aiming (sending the cue ball where it needs to go in order to make the ball), will probably have an easier time using CTE/Pro One than "feel aiming".
I don't have any trouble using either one and that doesn't make me special, I guess I put in the time on CTE/Pro One and it seems relatively easy, finite and accurate to me. The manual movements of pivoting have a plus and a minus. The minus is it is an extra step but the plus is you make a special effort to get the cue tip to the center of the cue ball. Like Mike mentioned earlier, some of these steps help "occupy" the conscious mind, yet allow the subconsious to go ahead and pull the trigger when all is good.
Lol, as if feel players don't aim by sight.
So what do you call when you're using your systems, methods and CTE, and you still miss?
From another post
Methods/Systems - Today, 04:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson
It could work by feel without a mathematical basis. In fact, I think it does. That's much simpler and more believable than "we're positive it's mathematically exact even though nobody can prove it and even though the instructions for pivoting are vague and inexact".
pj
chgo
You forgot "and anybody questioning CTE just doesn't and wont ever get it even if their questions are completely reasonable
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From 336robin
I dont see cte as a system but more as a method because of the very facts in Patricks post.
What strikes me about the system and Patricks post is that one would summize that now we have this all boiled down to the fact that after the systematic pivots, adjustments etc we are back to a visual system after all.
There is just a whole lot easier way to be visual than all this twisting and turning. I was showed this system at a strictly introductory level but what struck me in the head was I felt out of square or alignment with correct delivery position while Im pivoting and I personally cant deal with not being lined up correctly on center ball. All of my alignments were out which put my head spinning because the human gyroscope seemed to be on its side. Why would someone put themselves through that? Was beyond me but I went along.
How about we create a system to understand why proper alignment works and give ourselves a way to know we are doing right.
More importantly Patrick, what the heck is that on that fish? Yuck!!
336Robin
aimisthegameinpool@yahoo.com
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JoeyA,
I understand what you are doing in your game being able to cross reference your way and cte. That is pretty powerful in my opinion that you are able to do that. I understand from reading your posts that is what you are doing until you get thrown something youre unsure of then you cte it.
Youve found something that obviously works for JoeyA and its become a reference guide. I understand why you stand behind your methods.
Thats what my whole book is about. Reference Systems, ways to make sure you are right. Within my methods all of them relate to one another. These reference systems make me understand everything I do and from what I read here are basically in result than your cte. What is different is the complete approach. One does pivots. Mine walks up in correct delivery position and uses the reference to make sure youre right.
The basic difference you have between the cte camp and the natural feel camp seems to me to be that due to obvious comments that we are both dealing with a visual system at a point.
I think there are a few people like yourself that after all the steps in the system can still "Feel there way." I dont have the time to devote to all that studying and dont enjoy feeling out of line. I dont argue that what what you are doing is working from your posts I understand exactly why they do. Perhaps I dont understand cte perfectly but my stuff is working so I dont need to and from what I gather is no worse than cte.
From the author standpoint I would bet that Stan is very proud of what he has discovered and the successes he has had and should rightly be so.
I would not say that anything he has done isnt valid. I will say that nothing is perfect, but everything has levels of workability.
As authors I think a large motivating factor is helping people and that is where we all join together.
I think what I hear going on in "pool world" or at least what I understand is two camps trying to communicate with one another and arriving at the same conclusions to wit I say one thing.
Why does the method, whatever method we decide on as right that does have visual properties relating to the understanding of feel have to be so complicated?
It doesnt, it isnt.
I am not asking this question to you as much as I am asking this question to pool and if you want to get specific----American USA pool.
Ive had a top player tell me he believed the Philippine players are using cte and Im not so sure about that,-----another point to argue about I guess---- there may be some historical data to support that but from watching them approach shots and deliver balls Im just not so sure. Im thinking well maybe some do but just like us that might be just another cross reference check some do just like our monster killer JoeyA.
Could it be that the tightlipped, strong playing and simple people of the phillipines are doing something so basically simple that pales in simplicity to this thing we are doing that is fairly complicated?
Yes I think so and if this is true that would explain a lot things.
Mainly that their view of the game is simpler, more finite a feel due to simplicity and therefore the quality of how they hit balls is so very good.
Thats how I see it we are arriving at the same point but we are going around our elbow to do it so to speak.
You know its just not that complicated but first you have to look at ball making reference points just like you do everything else.
Make is Simple Stupid, is the phrase that I try to ask myself when I find myself in a mess. It works more times than not.
I just doubt that these two camps of thought are going to ever be able to converge in my lifetime but I would sure like to see it. I think the effects would be positive and then maybe we could argue about how to play the shot instead of how to make the ball and that would be a really good thing.
Making the ball isnt as complicated as you think if both camps are resolute on the fact that at a point feel is involved. Maybe we all need to reexamine the simplicity of our reference system and maybe we ought to have a reference system that doesnt exist in the clouds, is subject to the meditation of kungfu masters and is something you just know.
What would be wrong with a template telling you exactly how to know?
A simple one!!
336Robin :thumbup: http://274928807619529663.weebly.com/
aimisthegameinpool@yahoo.com
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Still called a miss there genius but thanks for asking.
Please feel free to jump in and expose your intelligence level at any time.
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I was wondering do you guy's that use feel as a way of lining your body to the shot. Do you find yourself falling on the right line going down on the shot with little movement once down or do you find yourself moving a lot after
your down.
The only reason i say this i have seen a some players approach the shot
fall down in there shooting position and have seen there bodies moving once down.
your down.
The only reason i say this i have seen a some players approach the shot
fall down in there shooting position and have seen there bodies moving once down.
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Sure thing 8pack,
Any settling that occurs when you get down might put you thick or thin on the shot. If youre using center ball you might have to adjust.
You also have to make the decision if you want to manipulate the shot with certain English's which may dicate if you want to thick or thin on the shot.
Absolutely thats what its all about, getting right. Its a much minor version of the pivot in my opinion where all the clues a visual which after a short time of keying off a template makes you able to know whether youre on or off.
Just because you know doesnt mean you can execute if you are in a bind or just not fully adjusting.
All that preshot routine and shot routine being the same helps with the consistency.
336robin :thumbup: http://274928807619529663.weebly.com/
aimisthegameinpool@yahoo.com
It is only in very rare occasions I adjust my setup once I've dropped down into the shooting position. For me, it's because I'm too lazy to stand up and realign myself. It's usually on a simple shot that I didn't set up on correctly in the first place because it looked too easy to miss. Laziness kills. I've also thrown a little extra english on a shot so I didn't have to do ALL the effort it takes to stand up and realign. That sounds pathetic because it is!
I agree ,i feel i do the exact same thing's.I have probably lost 10 times more
game from easy shot's than hard ones.
You are not alone, I'm ashamed to say. :embarrassed2:
Many of my runs in 14.1 were stopped by knowing I needed to adjust and was too lazy.
Johnnyt
Many of my runs in 14.1 were stopped by knowing I needed to adjust and was too lazy.
Not to kill this thread but one of the things that CTE/Pro One helped me with is finding the center of the cue ball and sticking there.
When I use feel aiming and don't line up accurately, I will, like a lot of people, maybe, just slant the cue and put a little spin on the cue ball to throw the object ball in. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.
Now, whether I am using CTE/Pro One, Perfect Aim, feel or any other aiming method, I put more effort in getting to that center of the cue ball. I genuinely think that has helped my pool game.