What is force follow?

[CaptainJR]

Actually, Willie, in straight pool, the term "force follow" is occasionally used to describe the powerful follow shot that is required to get the cue ball to burrow through the pack on a break shot. Tony Robles is particularly skilled at this kind of stroke, in which the cue ball hits the pack and then seems to catch a second gear, enabling it to power its way through the whole pack.

sjm
That is the powerful shot I was referring to in post #6 on this thread and is what I had always thought was force follow.

But I do now remember who I heard say 'force follow' when they were talking about a normal follow shot. It was Janette Lee.

 

[Nostroke]

What I think of force follow is when the cue ball is struck in a with enough follow spin to cause it to continue in a forward direction because of the spin and not the momentum.

So, the cue ball for example may hit an object ball, hesitate or even stop, then continue forward after impact.

In other words, the follow spin of the cue ball is what drives it's ongoing forward momentum, not it's inertia.

Chris

I think spin is the only thing that ever makes a ball go forward. Inertia, if that is the right word, will transfer to the object ball or take place along the tangent line. The exception might be if the cue ball leaves the table.

I think a ball hesitatiing is merely spinning in place til it 'catches'

 

[CaptainJR]

I think spin is the only thing that ever makes a ball go forward. Inertia, if that is the right word, will transfer to the object ball or take place along the tangent line. The exception might be if the cue ball leaves the table.

I think a ball hesitatiing is merely spinning in place til it 'catches'

Inertia is the correct term. The tendency of a moving object to continue to move in the same direction until acted upon by another force, such as friction. Even if it was a perfectly straight shot, not all of the momentum will transfer to the second ball. Leaving some of the momentum(inertia) in the cue ball and moving forward some. Sometime or other we've all seen the little knick-knack with the five hanging silver balls, where you pull the ball away on one side and when it hits the second ball the opposite end ball flies out. lt repeats for a while, but then losses it's momentum because all the momentum doesn't transfer. Because of this if there was just two balls, it wouldn't work. The first ball would continue a little after the impact being out of position when the second comes down. They would eventually end up swinging the same direction.

 

[Rude Dog]

Force-Follow=Forcing a Ball to go forward without top spin. That's how I've always interpreted it. You can also force a CB to the left or right with the same kind of stroke when you don't quite have the angle desired. Or, I just slam it real hard and hope it goes into one of the 6 pockets.

 

[CaptainJR]

Force-Follow=Forcing a Ball to go forward without top spin. That's how I've always interpreted it. You can also force a CB to the left or right with the same kind of stroke when you don't quite have the angle desired. Or, I just slam it real hard and hope it goes into one of the 6 pockets.

Well! that ended this thread. Thanks, now that someone that did great at the open this year has stated what is what, nobody will challenge.

 

[cueman]

I mean no disrespect to anyone. But I wish I had just opened my 2001 BCA rules book and and wrote their definition of force follow in the first place. Some are describing a stun shot as force follow and in my opinion and the BCA's that is wrong.

Here is the BCA books definition:

"FORCE FOLLOW: A follow shot with extreme overspin applied to the cue ball, with the term generally used in reference to shots in which the cue ball is shot directly at and then "through" an object ball, with a pronounced hesitation or stop before the overspin propels the cue ball forward in the general direction of the stroke."

It can't be talking about the stun shot which creeps forward after smacking the object ball because it says "extreme overspin".

Here is the BCA books definition of FORCE:

"FORCE: The power applied on the stroke to the cue ball, which may result in distortion and altering of natural angles and action of the ball."

The BCA may not be the final word either, but it pretty much goes along with what my understanding has been.

Chris
www.internationalcuemakers.com
www.cuesmith.com

 

[Colin Colenso]

Inertia is the correct term. The tendency of a moving object to continue to move in the same direction until acted upon by another force, such as friction. Even if it was a perfectly straight shot, not all of the momentum will transfer to the second ball. Leaving some of the momentum(inertia) in the cue ball and moving forward some. Sometime or other we've all seen the little knick-knack with the five hanging silver balls, where you pull the ball away on one side and when it hits the second ball the opposite end ball flies out. lt repeats for a while, but then losses it's momentum because all the momentum doesn't transfer. Because of this if there was just two balls, it wouldn't work. The first ball would continue a little after the impact being out of position when the second comes down. They would eventually end up swinging the same direction.

There is no forward inertia. What causes a ball to creep forward can be two things.
1. Friction (pulling) from the forwaard ball as it pulls away. This is less than 2%.
2. Forward spin transfered from the cue ball. This also is usually quite insignificant.

In other posts 'overspin' has been refered to, but as has been explained before here, obtaining top spin greater than the natural rolling rate is very difficult on very close shots (and almost unnoticeable) and on shots where the cue ball is a few feet from the object ball overspin could not occur unless thecue ball travelled through the air. Even if it did, any difference in position would be insignificant.

 

[Colin Colenso]

An example:

http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/9egg/

START(
%Ak7Z8%BL8P7%CJ7O4%DL8N2%EM7P1%FK7P1%GK7N8%HM7N8%IL7O4%JK8M6
%KJ7P7%LJ7N2%MK7Q3%NJ6Y5%OJ7M0%PV9Y3%YC7[4%ZI9Y6%[c2Y6%\D1W4
%]L0Y6%^U9Y3%eB1`2%_C9W9%`J8X2%aK2Y3
)END

Only one example. I have used a little inside english as well. Cueman said it well.

DC

I understand that this diagram was drawn to exagerate the effect, but regardless, this shot is impossible...it is a myth.

Overspin on this type of shot is impossible. Even if it were achieved the speed of shot required would throw the cue ball far wider than any benefits of supposed overspin in straightening the angle of follow through.

The harder you hit the cue ball, the wider it will throw.

This myth is akin to using left or right english to make the cue ball move left or right on straight shots. Occaissionally the player pots the ball into the edge of the pocket and gets the result wanted and thinks that the side....or in this case overspin has enabled the result.

 

[CaptainJR]

There is no forward inertia. What causes a ball to creep forward can be two things.
1. Friction (pulling) from the forwaard ball as it pulls away. This is less than 2%.
2. Forward spin transfered from the cue ball. This also is usually quite insignificant.

In other posts 'overspin' has been refered to, but as has been explained before here, obtaining top spin greater than the natural rolling rate is very difficult on very close shots (and almost unnoticeable) and on shots where the cue ball is a few feet from the object ball overspin could not occur unless thecue ball travelled through the air. Even if it did, any difference in position would be insignificant.

Colen
We just simply must be misunderstanding each other. You just can't be writing here that there is no such thing as follow spin where the cue is spinning faster than it is going forward. You say it can't be done when the cue is near the object ball? Below is a shot I played about 3 weeks ago. Granted, Dick gave me the game on the merit of this shot alone because it looked rather spectacular. (I had him this game anyway) It was simply high left, using what I talked about in reply #6 on this thread.

<http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/9egg/>

START(
%GD9J2%Hr7K4%IH0G5%PE1F8%Ur0M9%Va7C9%W`6D2%XK3Z8%bJ7Z3%cG5J8
%dD9I5
)END

(by the way, this shot requires pivot english as opposed to parallel english)

You say there is no inertia to make the cue go forward when it hits the object ball. I have news for you. The only way the inertia would be canceled completely is if the object ball was coming at the cue from the opposite direction at the same speed. Then they would cancel each other out.

 

[dmgwalsh]

Any follow shot played with a lot of force and follow, often producing a curving cue ball.

.

Not to get too far off subject, but how do you do this shot. how far above center? How hard? follow through?

I had a lesson from Frank "Sailor" Stellman and though he said my draw was ok, when I tried follow, he said I hit it like an old lady. (I guess he meant one that couldn't put much follow on the ball). Any tips on how to obtain the type of follow with the curving cue ball you mentioned above?

 

[CaptainJR]

Not to get too far off subject, but how do you do this shot. how far above center? How hard? follow through?

I had a lesson from Frank "Sailor" Stellman and though he said my draw was ok, when I tried follow, he said I hit it like an old lady. (I guess he meant one that couldn't put much follow on the ball). Any tips on how to obtain the type of follow with the curving cue ball you mentioned above?

see my reply #6 on this thread. that is how I do it.

 

[dmgwalsh]

see my reply #6 on this thread. that is how I do it.

Sorry, I missed that one. I'll give it a try tonight.

Did it take a lot of practice to get it down? Does it work with medium or soft hits, so long as you are able to keep the tip on the ball?

 

[sjm]

I understand that this diagram was drawn to exagerate the effect, but regardless, this shot is impossible...it is a myth.

Overspin on this type of shot is impossible. Even if it were achieved the speed of shot required would throw the cue ball far wider than any benefits of supposed overspin in straightening the angle of follow through.

The harder you hit the cue ball, the wider it will throw.

This myth is akin to using left or right english to make the cue ball move left or right on straight shots. Occaissionally the player pots the ball into the edge of the pocket and gets the result wanted and thinks that the side....or in this case overspin has enabled the result.

Colin, could you please explain how to embed a wei table image into a post. I already know how to put wei code as text into a post, but not the table image itself. I'd be very grateful.

 

[jer9ball]

Seems to me that terminology doesn't really matter very much, so no sense in arguing about it.

There are shots where you can't get position by using topspin and still hit the object ball hard enough to pocket it. Typically the object ball and cueball are inline, somewhere mid-table, pointed towards a corner pocket. Rather than shoot gently with follow, you shoot hard with little or no spin, and the cueball moves a few inches forward just after impact.

In my opinion, this is force-follow (matches the Colonel's definition I think). But who cares about definitions. Point is, this is a very useful shot that many players don't know or understand. Not very easy to pull off either.

cheers,
jer9ball

 

[Nostroke]

Seems to me that terminology doesn't really matter very much, so no sense in arguing about it.

There are shots where you can't get position by using topspin and still hit the object ball hard enough to pocket it. Typically the object ball and cueball are inline, somewhere mid-table, pointed towards a corner pocket. Rather than shoot gently with follow, you shoot hard with little or no spin, and the cueball moves a few inches forward just after impact.

In my opinion, this is force-follow (matches the Colonel's definition I think). But who cares about definitions. Point is, this is a very useful shot that many players don't know or understand. Not very easy to pull off either.

cheers,
jer9ball

Terminology doesn't really matter huh? What if when you were shooting a guy walks up with a gun and says "you got two seconds to shoot this shot with force follow or im gonna shoot you"? What about that huh?

Just kidding- My purpose was mainly to inform of the confusion over the term. I have actually seen 2 people have a discussion about a shot, one of them using the term but the other had a different definition and it went on for 3 minutes and ended in confusion with neither guy realizing where the problem was.

I never use the term for that reason. I like 'stun dribble' and 'maximum topspin'. I think ill use 'Karate Chop Follow' too now that i've heard it.

 

[Rickw]

I think it's already been described but I'd just like to offer an example of how I use force follow. When the ob is lined up straight in the pocket and the cb is behind it on that straight line, and you have no option to use draw, I hit the cb with very hard follow and the cb will veer off the line so that it doesn't follow the ob into the pocket. The cb will catch the rail to the left of the right of the pocket. It is a very useful stroke when you're stuck in that predicament.

 

[Colin Colenso]

How to embed pictures

Colin, could you please explain how to embed a wei table image into a post. I already know how to put wei code as text into a post, but not the table image itself. I'd be very grateful.

When you have the Wei Table picture on your screen, just press and hold the shift key while pressing the 'PrtSc' Print Screen key.

Then open a drawing program such as Paintbrush which is on most computers already, and select edit then paste. The whole screen image will be pasted. The select the area you want for your picture. Make a rectangle around this and select 'edit' then 'copy'.

Open a new image and paste this smaller part. Then save this as a picture.

To add this picture to a thread here, click on the 'manage attachments' button and browse for the pic and upload it.

Good luck

 

[Bob Jewett]

... But who cares about definitions.

Most people who hope to communicate effectively and unambiguously care about definitions. Didn't you notice the recent article about a tribe in the Amazon that doesn't have a word for "three"? The guy with four goats has a real problem. I suspect that a lot of the problems beginners have would go away if they bothered to learn the various pool terms. And if they want to discuss the various pool ideas with other players, it seems like it would go faster if they used the same words for the same things.

Or, maybe you were kidding.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Colen
We just simply must be misunderstanding each other. You just can't be writing here that there is no such thing as follow spin where the cue is spinning faster than it is going forward. You say it can't be done when the cue is near the object ball? Below is a shot I played about 3 weeks ago. Granted, Dick gave me the game on the merit of this shot alone because it looked rather spectacular. (I had him this game anyway) It was simply high left, using what I talked about in reply #6 on this thread.

<http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/9egg/>

START(
%GD9J2%Hr7K4%IH0G5%PE1F8%Ur0M9%Va7C9%W`6D2%XK3Z8%bJ7Z3%cG5J8
%dD9I5
)END

(by the way, this shot requires pivot english as opposed to parallel english)

You say there is no inertia to make the cue go forward when it hits the object ball. I have news for you. The only way the inertia would be canceled completely is if the object ball was coming at the cue from the opposite direction at the same speed. Then they would cancel each other out.

Captain JR,
I don't mean to argue, just to clarify my position.

You may be confusing inertia with momentum here.

Regardless, linear momentum of the cue ball is zero after a full ball, elastic collision with an equal weight object ball. (in reality, billiard ball collisions are about 98% elastic)

So basically, if the cue ball is moving at 20km/h before impact, after the collision the cue ball will stop and the object ball moves away at 20km/h.

If the cue ball has spin on it, then this has another form of momentum called angular momentum. This spin grips to the cloth and converts partly to linear momentum. This is what moves the cue ball forward and creates the arc on angled shots.

The shot in your diagram I would just call power follow. This doesn't require the cue ball to have overspin before impact. It is rolling, without slip, like gears in a cog.

After impact the cue ball does have overspin. It is slipping on the cloth for a small time until it begins to roll naturally.

Hope that clarifies things a little.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Most people who hope to communicate effectively and unambiguously care about definitions. Didn't you notice the recent article about a tribe in the Amazon that doesn't have a word for "three"? The guy with four goats has a real problem. I suspect that a lot of the problems beginners have would go away if they bothered to learn the various pool terms. And if they want to discuss the various pool ideas with other players, it seems like it would go faster if they used the same words for the same things.

Or, maybe you were kidding.

Exactly...definitions are imperitive for efficient communication of ideas. If a word has several meanings, we need to add a complex diclaimer such as 'force follow, meaning slight follow with force', in order to clarify which definition we are refering to.

It helps if we choose phrases that are descriptive in order to clarify and avoid future misuse of terms.

The terms 'stun through' or 'stun follow' work quite well, even though the term stun is not very appropriate.

The term 'stun' seems to have originted in English billiards to indicte when the cue ball took a wider path than that intended. Early players mistakingly thought that stun was caused by a jerky or rushed cue action that shocked or stunned the cue ball somehow. However, all that was happenning was that the player was hitting the cue ball either to low or too hard to achieve a natural roll or a natural billiard angle.

The term 'partial slide follow' may be more appropriate than 'stun through', but 'partial slide draw' would not be as clear as 'stun draw' or 'stun back' as snooker players say.

Language ain't perfect...it requires definitions and good communiction to gain value.