What is more important when buying Cues and Cases who built it or who signed it!!!

[manwon]

Well what is that you "think" you are paying for? Value is always subjective in these situations. The "worth" you assign to something might not be the same that someone else assigns to it.

The other issue where you are mixing concepts is "custom". Custom is not related to how many people work on something. Custom means made to the specifications of the customer.

If you look at Ernie Gutierez's (sp) - Ginacue's shop you will see a shop that is in fact a cue factory and Ernie is quite proud of the fact that he has made all the machines himself to automate almost every process. It is a one man cue making facility because Ernie chooses it to be that way but it is a "factory" none the less. In fact one could very well make the case that the "art" of making cues is in essence the ability to make an instrument over and over that is highly consistent in it's performance.

So in that case "custom" only applies to the decoration in the cue as to what the customer can choose to have done.

If I call Viking and order a cue with all my decorative choices and they build it then it is every bit as much of a "custom" cue as any Ginacue is. Will it have the same value? No because the market places a much higher value on the rarity of Ginacues vs. the bountiful abundance of Viking cues.

I really truly HATE to use this word to describe a person but in fact an apprentice or worker is a tool that the designer/maker uses to produce the work that will bear his name. There is NO NEED for makers to disclose ANYTHING related to WHO did what work on a cue or a case because as long as it bears the name of the maker it should stand up to the quality that the name has earned a reputation for.

I do however feel that a person who is contemplating the purchase of a custom anything should investigate who they want to do the work and do whatever it takes to feel secure in their choice.

John, I will not allow you to derail this thread!!!! You continue to speak out about raising the bar and about competition, but your only really concerned about is proving your are the best. But who are you trying to prove this to yourself, and if so why?? I think people should just let their work speak for itself, or let their customers speak for them. But that is not your way John, you have to personally glorify everything that comes from your shop. John you have certainly established yourself and your reputation as a Leather worker / Case maker so what do you have to prove to anyone. Yet, as soon as some else comes along and people recognize them for the work they are doing you go on a personal crusade to turn the attention back to John Barton. Even when some one gives you a compliment you intentionally try to make it out as something it was not meant to be. John you really need to think about how all this makes others view your actions, and you need to understand how needless and foolish it all really is.:embarrassed2:

John competition and raising the bar are good things, but they should be done by the instigator not by his underlings. Like I have said before John I think you should sit down and build a case yourself, with your two hands, if you want to compete with those who do just that, now that would be raising the bar John.

Thanks for your opinion, and like I have said many times relax John you really have nothing to prove to anyone!!!!

 

[manwon]

You make a lot of assumptions here. Let's start with the last one, the one about the designer not getting their hands dirty;

Do you really know ANYTHING about how this works in real life Craig? Do you think that the designer sits in an office and sends off sketches and magically products just appear?

Do you have any CLUE at all what it takes to create something of substance and how much WORK is involved by everyone in the process?

Let's continue to use MY latest case as an example and I will run it down for you;

First the customer contacts me with his concept. We discuss it and I provide sketches and mockups that I do. This goes back and forth until we settle on a basic design - in this case that means about 20ish emails back and forth and four or five drafts on the concept.

Then I have the tooler do a rough sketch of the tooling pattern to go on the case and with him I work on that until I feel it's good to present to the customer - in this case that worked out to about three revisions BEFORE I sent it to the customer.

After the customer sees it we make any changes that they want to see. In this particular instance that equated to many changes throughout the process. I am the conduit for any and all changes - tack on another 20ish emails back and forth.

I designed the way the case would be constructed, if you know anything AT ALL about case construction then you will recognize how hard it is to build a case the way we did here. So this meant that I had to work out the methods and prototype them BEFORE applying them to the customer's case. I have a wall full of case sections where my concepts and ideas have been tested and refined.

On this case I developed a brand new way to do the handles that I have never seen before on anyone else's work. This cost me several hours of thinking about it plus more time spent researching handles BECAUSE I really wanted to do a tooled handle that was ALSO comfortable in the hand.

At every single step on this case I was right there either working on it or telling my staff what to do. I have photos of the case in every stage of development after construction finally began.

There are many other things that you cannot see on this case where I designed features here and there on the fly. For example, instead of using black fabric for the jump handle compartment I elected to use butterscotch deerskin and also to line the lower pocket with it. The idea to tool inside the rim was decided on the fly by me and required ME to sit down and re-engineer the overall pattern of the case.

I could go on with more things but the POINT of all this is that the "dirty work" IS done by the designer, especially in my shop. Unless I allow it NOTHING is done in my shop without my approval. And the only time I allow things to be done without my supervision is when I am satisfied that they are able to do those things to my standards, which is rare.

So enough about "dirty hands" - mine are black from leather dye by the way.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's move on to assumption number two where you state;



You make this statement as if you KNOW this to be a true fact. I highly doubt that you have visited ANY case maker's operation to ascertain how and why they build they way they do.

You don't even know if the staff are "apprentices" or employees. Do you even know the difference? I am the "individual" you refer to to so quit being mealy mouthed about it. We already had the discussion about what custom is and there is NO DOUBT Craig that the cases coming out of my shop are CUSTOM CASES in every sense and definition of the word.

But let's talk about the last sentence in your above statement. What purpose SHOULD a shop be "tooled" for? Really Craig any one who makes anything on a continuous basis that is worth their salt sets up their shop to be able to PRODUCE things in a quick and consistent manner.

Are you suggesting a LIMIT on the number of tools and jigs a person can use in order to be able to call their work "custom" I know you already think there should be a limit on how many people work on it but now you want to limit the tools and processes as well?

Or do you mean to imply that I basically have a cue case factory and that the cases are made by throwing a bunch of leather on the table at one end and the other end spits out a case? A case assembly line of sorts? Is that what you mean?

It's really hard to tell when you make statements like this that are presented as fact but in fact are just opinion that is ignorant of the actual process.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

And the final point - I could go on for days but I need to go watch some WORLD CLASS pool instead of debating this and two, it's just not important in the grand scheme of things.



Again you are misusing the word custom. Custom only applies to things that are made to order according to the CUSTOMER'S specification. The craftsman's touch, the designer's design are the things that make items DIFFERENT from other people's similar items. By your logic the only thing that makes a case "worthy" is who did the labor to actually build it.

Does a Jack Justis case cease to be worthy to be called a Justis case if someone else were to go into Jack's home and build a case using exactly his tools and methods and the case came out exactly as he would build it? In that situation the CREATOR of the case is Jack Justis, the builder could be anyone. Jack created all the jigs, he created all the patterns, he defined the method.

You did start this thread specifically to FLAME me.

If you cannot see my unique touch in the cases I build then I have to say you are blind or being deliberately contrary just to advance your position.

Have a great day - I am off to watch someone win $20,000

John be very careful!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sooner or later you are going to slip off the cloud you have placed yourself upon and come back to the real world!!!!

John when that day comes I feel sorry for you my Brother!!!!!!!

Seriously John, take a look in the Mirror is all this necessary or is it a product of insecurity, only you can say for certain John. Just like everything else John you had to jump into this thread and assert yourself because you felt left out. I just don't think you understand how it makes you look John, but if this helps you feel assertive I suppose this thread has served a purpose after all.!!!!!!!

Good Night John.

 

[JB Cases]

John, I will not allow you to derail this thread!!!! You continue to speak out about raising the bar and about competition, but your only really concerned about is proving your are the best. But who are you trying to prove this to yourself, and if so why?? I think people should just let their work speak for itself, or let their customers speak for them. But that is not your way John, you have to personally glorify everything that comes from your shop. John you have certainly established yourself and your reputation as a Leather worker / Case maker so what do you have to prove to anyone. Yet, as soon as some else comes along and people recognize them for the work they are doing you go on a personal crusade to turn the attention back to John Barton. Even when some one gives you a compliment you intentionally try to make it out as something it was not meant to be. John you really need to think about how all this makes others view your actions, and you need to understand how needless and foolish it all really is.:embarrassed2:

John competition and raising the bar are good things, but they should be done by the instigator not by his underlings. Like I have said before John I think you should sit down and build a case yourself, with your two hands, if you want to compete with those who do just that, now that would be raising the bar John.

Thanks for your opinion, and like I have said many times relax John you really have nothing to prove to anyone!!!!

Unless you are the moderator you have zero power to influence what direction this thread goes in. You started this thread SPECIFICALLY to flame me and what I do based on our private discussions on this very topic.

I have kept it ON TOPIC and addressed your points.

The fact is Craig that YOUR VIEW on this topic is stodgy and unrealistic. I refuted all of your points privately and now you have sought to make a "poll" to see if you can ANYONE to agree with you.

Don't you know already that the world is mostly made up of "underlings".

Innovation and "bar raising" doesn't come from "underlings" and workers and rarely from apprentices. It comes from inventors and people who are NOT HAPPY with the way things are. Those people often use other people's labor in order to get their creative and inventive things done. Any architect can swing a hammer but not every carpenter can design a building.

And you're right Craig I promote what comes out of our shop because I am DAMN PROUD of what WE build. I am proud to show off the work and explain the new gee-whiz features that aren't apparent on the surface.

As for jumping your ass when you started "glorifying" Rusty's work as the second coming of Chas Clements even though you HAD NEVER EVEN HELD ONE OF RUSTY'S CASES IN YOUR HANDS...... yes I did and I explained my reasons for my comments. Rusty and I understand each other and respect each other tremendously! You I don't understand and this particular crusade you are on is not respected by me at all. However I did give you the respect of carrying on the discussion IN PRIVATE, but since you made it public let it play out.

If you are going to pose as a case expert then at least go and get some expertise to back it up.

Now, I know you want to analyze me and make it all about my insecurities and yada yada but let's not derail the thread by talking about my psyche and get it back to the fact that you promote people's work that you have never seen in person as being as good as or better than other people's work you have ALSO never seen (I believe) in person, AND this in turn leads to your "expertise" being questioned, which then leads to you finding some way to attempt to DISCREDIT the person who dares to question your opinions that are stated as fact.

I don't care that you have opinions. We all do. I think my McDermott D-1 cue was as good or better than any custom cue at any price I have ever owned - other people feel differently and can tell me why six way from Sunday. However if I state it as a fact then I should have examples and concrete evidence to back up my statement, such as x-rays, testimonials, stress testing etc....

My beef is that YOU make these statements like "in many cases the xxxx is made by apprentices in a factory environment" as if you toured the factory and saw this with your own eyes, when in fact you did not tour the facility where the product is made and your statement is an assumption only.

I will not let such statements stand as long as I am a member here and what you say is related to my business. It's my duty to refute such statements from you and others lest they be taken as fact by readers with far less experience.

It's not about me (well in this particular instance it is) it's about making sure that people know what the real - or at least the other side - of the story is.

 

[JB Cases]

John be very careful!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sooner or later you are going to slip off the cloud you have placed yourself upon and come back to the real world!!!!

John when that day comes I feel sorry for you my Brother!!!!!!!

Seriously John, take a look in the Mirror is all this necessary or is it a product of insecurity, only you can say for certain John. Just like everything else John you had to jump into this thread and assert yourself because you felt left out. I just don't think you understand how it makes you look John, but if this helps you feel assertive I suppose this thread has served a purpose after all.!!!!!!!

Good Night John.

It's funny you write this about the mirror because I am sitting in my hotel room looking in the mirror as I type this and wondering what the hell I am still doing here??

I jumped INTO the thread because YOU made it about me. You know FULL WELL that you started this thread because of our PRIVATE discussions.

Now, I certainly agree that this is a topic worthy of debate. I have provided my examples, stated my side and addressed your statements. Isn't this what you wanted?

 

[JB Cases]

J Even when some one gives you a compliment you intentionally try to make it out as something it was not meant to be.

No, I get plenty of sincere compliments that I am truly grateful and thankful for. (thanks for the ego-boost all you sincere complimenters!!!!)

It's only when "some" people make "compliments" that I feel quite strong are backhanded slaps that I take issue with it.

Then I intentionally address it. Sorry man I thought you should have at least had something more to say than "great case for a woman" after you came out presenting yourself as an expert on cue cases and tooling.

I thought you might at least hail me as the best case maker since Chaz Dillon or something What do I have to do to get a break from you?

Oh yeah, I know I have to cut the leather, and tool it, and sew it and rivet all by myself. Ok got it.

 

[manwon]

Unless you are the moderator you have zero power to influence what direction this thread goes in. You started this thread SPECIFICALLY to flame me and what I do based on our private discussions on this very topic.

I have kept it ON TOPIC and addressed your points.

The fact is Craig that YOUR VIEW on this topic is stodgy and unrealistic. I refuted all of your points privately and now you have sought to make a "poll" to see if you can ANYONE to agree with you.

Don't you know already that the world is mostly made up of "underlings".

Innovation and "bar raising" doesn't come from "underlings" and workers and rarely from apprentices. It comes from inventors and people who are NOT HAPPY with the way things are. Those people often use other people's labor in order to get their creative and inventive things done. Any architect can swing a hammer but not every carpenter can design a building.

And you're right Craig I promote what comes out of our shop because I am DAMN PROUD of what WE build. I am proud to show off the work and explain the new gee-whiz features that aren't apparent on the surface.

As for jumping your ass when you started "glorifying" Rusty's work as the second coming of Chas Clements even though you HAD NEVER EVEN HELD ONE OF RUSTY'S CASES IN YOUR HANDS...... yes I did and I explained my reasons for my comments. Rusty and I understand each other and respect each other tremendously! You I don't understand and this particular crusade you are on is not respected by me at all. However I did give you the respect of carrying on the discussion IN PRIVATE, but since you made it public let it play out.

If you are going to pose as a case expert then at least go and get some expertise to back it up.

Now, I know you want to analyze me and make it all about my insecurities and yada yada but let's not derail the thread by talking about my psyche and get it back to the fact that you promote people's work that you have never seen in person as being as good as or better than other people's work you have ALSO never seen (I believe) in person, AND this in turn leads to your "expertise" being questioned, which then leads to you finding some way to attempt to DISCREDIT the person who dares to question your opinions that are stated as fact.

I don't care that you have opinions. We all do. I think my McDermott D-1 cue was as good or better than any custom cue at any price I have ever owned - other people feel differently and can tell me why six way from Sunday. However if I state it as a fact then I should have examples and concrete evidence to back up my statement, such as x-rays, testimonials, stress testing etc....

My beef is that YOU make these statements like "in many cases the xxxx is made by apprentices in a factory environment" as if you toured the factory and saw this with your own eyes, when in fact you did not tour the facility where the product is made and your statement is an assumption only.

I will not let such statements stand as long as I am a member here and what you say is related to my business. It's my duty to refute such statements from you and others lest they be taken as fact by readers with far less experience.

It's not about me (well in this particular instance it is) it's about making sure that people know what the real - or at least the other side - of the story is.

You started this thread SPECIFICALLY to flame me and what I do based on our private discussions on this very topic.

John did you read the poll questions John are they unfair John, or Bias one way or the other? John all you are doing is proving my point,:grin: and try as you will, you will not derail this thread. John like I have said everything is not about you, and you do not contol the opinions of others, well at least not mine!!!!

You just don't see how foolish you look John, you just don't get it!!!!!

 

[JB Cases]

You started this thread SPECIFICALLY to flame me and what I do based on our private discussions on this very topic.

John did you read the poll questions John are they unfair John, or Bias one way or the other? John all you are doing is proving my point,:grin: and try as you will, you will not derail this thread. John like I have said everything is not about you, and you do not contol the opinions of others, well at least not mine!!!!

You just don't see how foolish you look John, you just don't get it!!!!!

These are your questions and yes they are biased. It's a fact that people who write polls frame the questions subconsciously (and probably on purpose too) in such a way that they are biased to elicit the responses that are desired. Look it up.

Is it more important who built something or which shop it came from?

Sorry I have to get out the grammar police pen for a moment before I address this one.

Which is more important? Knowing the exact person who built something or just knowing the shop it came from? (I think that the question should have been phrased this way but we all got it anyway)

Yes it is important

You asked which one is MORE important not whether it's important. This answer is irrelevant and skews the results.

Doesn't matter to me so long as it signed by the Craftsman
I only want the Craftsman to build my Cue or Case

The answers here are leading. Again you only asked which is more important - the answers should be only two, "knowing the person" or "knowing the shop" and let people VOTE on which of those two things are MORE important to them.

I don't really care if I like what I purchased

Leading and irrelevant.

Not Important at all

Not part of the question and irrelevant. Take some time to really think about these "polls" before you use them to flame people.

A person who was TRULY interested in the results of a poll would simply put one up WITHOUT any extra reason and let people vote. By giving your point of view you are leading the respondents.

That's like if I were asked to take a survey on how I feel about abortion and was made to watch a five minute video put on by anti-abortion people before answering the question. Naturally this will tend to skew how I answer some questions.

 

[manwon]

These are your questions and yes they are biased. It's a fact that people who write polls frame the questions subconsciously (and probably on purpose too) in such a way that they are biased to elicit the responses that are desired. Look it up.



Sorry I have to get out the grammar police pen for a moment before I address this one.

Which is more important? Knowing the exact person who built something or just knowing the shop it came from? (I think that the question should have been phrased this way but we all got it anyway)


You asked which one is MORE important not whether it's important. This answer is irrelevant and skews the results.


The answers here are leading. Again you only asked which is more important - the answers should be only two, "knowing the person" or "knowing the shop" and let people VOTE on which of those two things are MORE important to them.


Leading and irrelevant.



Not part of the question and irrelevant. Take some time to really think about these "polls" before you use them to flame people.

A person who was TRULY interested in the results of a poll would simply put one up WITHOUT any extra reason and let people vote. By giving your point of view you are leading the respondents.

That's like if I were asked to take a survey on how I feel about abortion and was made to watch a five minute video put on by anti-abortion people before answering the question. Naturally this will tend to skew how I answer some questions.

John if you spent all the time that you spend being insecure, building a case you could build one hell of a case John!!!!!!!!

But I suspect that you may have forgotten to much along the way, and it may be more difficult than you remember!!!!!!

Take Care John!!!!

 

[JesPiddlin]

You two obviously have something going on, here. Be careful. It is said there is a fine line between love and hate. :wink:

It is very late and I think I finally managed to get this to say what I believe. Nevertheless, here it is. I hope it explains as clear as it sounds to me. You guys are in a tough spot and this is my interpretation of what I think you are both getting at. If I'm in left field, please just leave me out there. It'll rain soon and I'll come back in.

In one post, I read this....

"For the record though Craig, my toolers who do custom work sign their work. IF my work ever became collectible then there is a record on each piece of who did the tooling. If the tooling is repeated pattern work then it is unsigned."

Let's look at collectible glassware. Fenton, for example. They have multiple people doing the work and yet, some pieces bear the painter's signature on them. But, the glassware still bears the Fenton label, because it was their glassware design, built in their factory setting, with their equipment, within their strict standards.

How many people are behind the fashion designer and help him make his name what it is? How many of them get their name/signature attached to the clothing? He makes large sums of money on the designs that other people construct and still others exhibit. If he makes a custom order, he probably seldom, if ever touches the sewing machine. He only creates the design to be constructed by others. His name is the umbrella name all the others work under.

Yes, even the architect who designs and has others build for him fits in here.

There are artists in each field. But, when you get so busy you have to hire someone to work under you, you cease to be a lone star and become more of a "factory". When someone within that factory setting creates or designs something on their own, they should get the right to identify it as their work.

Custom - Webster's New World Dictionary - made or done to order.

Nobody ever said a mass production, or factory, or assembly-style business cannot build custom items. In fact, in my opinion, any company able to do that generally earns a little extra recognition for the ability to accomodate the customer.

As I stated earlier, I believe it is the buyer's responsibility to educate himself on what he is buying. Some people don't care. Some care very much.

There is one thing I believe very strongly. If I go to a company and request a custom item to be made by X person, I expect X person to be the one who builds it from the bottom to the top, if I am going to pay a premium price for it. There will be certain items I know will be built by other companies, such as bumpers, hinges, bolts, etc.. But, the actual design, assembly and decoration should be only by the person I requested to build that item and I expect that person's signature to be on that item to prove it was done by him/her and nobody else. Because that company allowed and/or enabled the creation of the item I custom ordered, I expect the item will bear the company label, as well as the signature of the custom creator.

There is definitely a difference in a company name (or label) and a custom artist's signature.

By the way, that is a GORGEOUS case!

 

[TWOFORPOOL]

JB Cases

I was the winner of the AZ Case that John Barton offered in a drawing. John was completely up front about "HIS SHOP" buildng the case. John designed this case for me and "HIS SHOP" (under his supervision built it for me). He told me he was training "HIS STAFF" to do cases.

AT NO TIME DID JOHN BARTON EVER STATE HE WAS BUILDING THE CASE HIMSELF. He as always stated "HIS SHOP" was building the case. I knew all along that the people that worked for him built the case under his supervision.

I think everybody that buys his cases KNOWS HIS STAFF MAKES THE CASES and not him. HE DIDN'T MOVE TO CHINA TO BUILD CASES HIMSELF, he could of stayed in the USA to do that - HELLO!!!!!!!!

I would be very upset if I spent 3,000 for a Paul Mottey cue and found out later that an apprentice built it. JOHN BARTON FROM DAY ONE SAID HE HIRED PEOPLE TO BUILD HIS CASES.

John Barton signed my case also but I knew all along that "HIS STAFF" built the case under his supervision and by him signing this case verified that is came from his shop.

 

[manwon]

I was the winner of the AZ Case that John Barton offered in a drawing. John was completely up front about "HIS SHOP" buildng the case. John designed this case for me and "HIS SHOP" (under his supervision built it for me). He told me he was training "HIS STAFF" to do cases.

AT NO TIME DID JOHN BARTON EVER STATE HE WAS BUILDING THE CASE HIMSELF. He as always stated "HIS SHOP" was building the case. I knew all along that the people that worked for him built the case under his supervision.

I think everybody that buys his cases KNOWS HIS STAFF MAKES THE CASES and not him. HE DIDN'T MOVE TO CHINA TO BUILD CASES HIMSELF, he could of stayed in the USA to do that - HELLO!!!!!!!!

I would be very upset if I spent 3,000 for a Paul Mottey cue and found out later that an apprentice built it. JOHN BARTON FROM DAY ONE SAID HE HIRED PEOPLE TO BUILD HIS CASES.

John Barton signed my case also but I knew all along that "HIS STAFF" built the case under his supervision and by him signing this case verified that is came from his shop.

I would be very upset if I spent 3,000 for a Paul Mottey cue and found out later that an apprentice built it.

Do a check of the AZ Billiards Archive that has happened to a forum member, and yes the cues buyer found out at the Billiards Expo that his cue was built by Pauls apprentise, and tes he was pissed I mean Hello!!!!!

John Barton signed my case also but I knew all along that "HIS STAFF" built the case under his supervision and by him signing this case verified that is came from his shop.[/

The Logo JB cases also kinda tells you the case came from Johns shop doesn't it!! Generally Craftsman sign something they made.

HE DIDN'T MOVE TO CHINA TO BUILD CASES HIMSELF, he could of stayed in the USA to do that -

Please tell us since you apparently know, why did he move to China?

Thanks for your opinion.

 

[manwon]

You two obviously have something going on, here. Be careful. It is said there is a fine line between love and hate. :wink:

It is very late and I think I finally managed to get this to say what I believe. Nevertheless, here it is. I hope it explains as clear as it sounds to me. You guys are in a tough spot and this is my interpretation of what I think you are both getting at. If I'm in left field, please just leave me out there. It'll rain soon and I'll come back in.

In one post, I read this....

"For the record though Craig, my toolers who do custom work sign their work. IF my work ever became collectible then there is a record on each piece of who did the tooling. If the tooling is repeated pattern work then it is unsigned."

Let's look at collectible glassware. Fenton, for example. They have multiple people doing the work and yet, some pieces bear the painter's signature on them. But, the glassware still bears the Fenton label, because it was their glassware design, built in their factory setting, with their equipment, within their strict standards.

How many people are behind the fashion designer and help him make his name what it is? How many of them get their name/signature attached to the clothing? He makes large sums of money on the designs that other people construct and still others exhibit. If he makes a custom order, he probably seldom, if ever touches the sewing machine. He only creates the design to be constructed by others. His name is the umbrella name all the others work under.

Yes, even the architect who designs and has others build for him fits in here.

There are artists in each field. But, when you get so busy you have to hire someone to work under you, you cease to be a lone star and become more of a "factory". When someone within that factory setting creates or designs something on their own, they should get the right to identify it as their work.

Custom - Webster's New World Dictionary - made or done to order.

Nobody ever said a mass production, or factory, or assembly-style business cannot build custom items. In fact, in my opinion, any company able to do that generally earns a little extra recognition for the ability to accomodate the customer.

As I stated earlier, I believe it is the buyer's responsibility to educate himself on what he is buying. Some people don't care. Some care very much.

There is one thing I believe very strongly. If I go to a company and request a custom item to be made by X person, I expect X person to be the one who builds it from the bottom to the top, if I am going to pay a premium price for it. There will be certain items I know will be built by other companies, such as bumpers, hinges, bolts, etc.. But, the actual design, assembly and decoration should be only by the person I requested to build that item and I expect that person's signature to be on that item to prove it was done by him/her and nobody else. Because that company allowed and/or enabled the creation of the item I custom ordered, I expect the item will bear the company label, as well as the signature of the custom creator.

There is definitely a difference in a company name (or label) and a custom artist's signature.

By the way, that is a GORGEOUS case!

There is definitely a difference in a company name (or label) and a custom artist's signature.

I think your right on target!!!!!!

 

[JB Cases]

I was the winner of the AZ Case that John Barton offered in a drawing. John was completely up front about "HIS SHOP" buildng the case. John designed this case for me and "HIS SHOP" (under his supervision built it for me). He told me he was training "HIS STAFF" to do cases.

AT NO TIME DID JOHN BARTON EVER STATE HE WAS BUILDING THE CASE HIMSELF. He as always stated "HIS SHOP" was building the case. I knew all along that the people that worked for him built the case under his supervision.

I think everybody that buys his cases KNOWS HIS STAFF MAKES THE CASES and not him. HE DIDN'T MOVE TO CHINA TO BUILD CASES HIMSELF, he could of stayed in the USA to do that - HELLO!!!!!!!!

I would be very upset if I spent 3,000 for a Paul Mottey cue and found out later that an apprentice built it. JOHN BARTON FROM DAY ONE SAID HE HIRED PEOPLE TO BUILD HIS CASES.

John Barton signed my case also but I knew all along that "HIS STAFF" built the case under his supervision and by him signing this case verified that is came from his shop.

Actually your case and your wife's is a very good example of what my work is and what the work of my staff is.

It took me a long time to come up with what I wanted to do on your case. You can verify this Bob if you care to share it with the board.

Your case still ranks as one of the best we have ever done and I don't showcase it enough.

Bob wanted a case that was similar to a Justis (I get that request a lot) but clearly not a Justis.

So I thought about it and designed a case where the two lines of tooling that are from a scroll wheel stamp on a Justis would flow in an arc.
http://www.jbcases.com/bob.html

Now, if you look closely you can see that the pockets also follow the line. Those of you who are reading this and build cases know that this is not an easy pocket to build. I went through a lot of printing, cutting and scotch tape to do the pattern for the pockets. I made the pattern all by myself because no one who worked for me at the time had any clue how to do it. Now, two years later I can draw a pocket like this and Zhen Hai can make a pattern for it either by modifying my original pattern or from scratch using the techniques I have taught him.

But back to this case you can see that the pockets all follow the line of tooling as does the back piece. This whole case required a brand new pattern and to this day you will not find another case like it anywhere.

Notice that the connections for the lid and the closure are all custom and unique, I designed and made patterns for those.

The actual construction of the case took about a week. The creation of it took months - well it felt like months of work anyway.

Yes, my staff does pretty much all the construction except for when I want to teach them something or when we are doing something critical that I feel I need to do so that they don't have to bear the responsibility if it's not done right. But a case like this one is truly one that would not exist without my work on it. I signed it because "I" built it by gathering together all the tools and people I need to bring it from my imagination to reality.

A JB Case exists only because of my efforts to start and maintain a workshop capable of making cases like this one. As long as I am involved in the design I will sign each piece that I feel warrants my signature. If I have no hand in the design or it's a model that we repeat a lot then I don't sign the cases. Every case however will get the JB Cases label with the month and year of it's creation.

If something happened to me then JB Cases could and hopefully would continue and I have full faith that, now, almost two years after I started making cases again, that my staff could build solid cases according to my standards and principles. That's what it's really all about for me.

Now Craig I am going to completely derail the thread with an inspirational story that serves to show how I want to influence the world.

I tell my staff all the time to try new things, to explore. I tell them if they have an idea then they should follow it and make an example and then fine tune. In my shop we don't stand around and debate whether we should do something or whether it will work, we just do it.

Well, in my shop we have four people who took up leather tooling and making leather items based on the work they do for me. They now make leather goods like wallets and such and sell them on China's version of Ebay to supplement their incomes and as such they have learned that they to can make things. One of my employees even contracts out the sewing of his items to some factory workers and they in turn have him tool up other things that they make. I am 100% sure that none of these people would be doing this if I didn't infuse them with the can-do innovate-create-explore spirit.

Ghandi said "be the change you want to see in the world." My way of doing this is to gather people around me who want to learn and grow and be a part of something enduring.

My role model here is Jerry Franklin. Although Jerry left us far too early his vision of a shop that could produce world class cues without his active involvement is a reality. When Jerry died it was his dream for he and Laurie to travel the world in search of exotic woods to use in SouthWest cues. They were very close to realizing that dream. When I visited the SouthWest shop in 1993 Jerry and Laurie were so kind to share with me their process and Jerry was kind enough to give me some great advice on design that I follow to this day.

I think Jerry would be proud of me and where I am at right now as a case maker. He would see what we are building and nod his approval. People like Jerry and Laurie Franklin, Roy Mallot, Bill Stroud, Joey Gold, Jim Murnak, Thomas Wayne, and many other great people in this business who all excel at what they do are the people whose advice I follow and whose opinions matter to me.

 

[JB Cases]

You two obviously have something going on, here. Be careful. It is said there is a fine line between love and hate. :wink:

It is very late and I think I finally managed to get this to say what I believe. Nevertheless, here it is. I hope it explains as clear as it sounds to me. You guys are in a tough spot and this is my interpretation of what I think you are both getting at. If I'm in left field, please just leave me out there. It'll rain soon and I'll come back in.

In one post, I read this....

"For the record though Craig, my toolers who do custom work sign their work. IF my work ever became collectible then there is a record on each piece of who did the tooling. If the tooling is repeated pattern work then it is unsigned."

Let's look at collectible glassware. Fenton, for example. They have multiple people doing the work and yet, some pieces bear the painter's signature on them. But, the glassware still bears the Fenton label, because it was their glassware design, built in their factory setting, with their equipment, within their strict standards.

How many people are behind the fashion designer and help him make his name what it is? How many of them get their name/signature attached to the clothing? He makes large sums of money on the designs that other people construct and still others exhibit. If he makes a custom order, he probably seldom, if ever touches the sewing machine. He only creates the design to be constructed by others. His name is the umbrella name all the others work under.

Yes, even the architect who designs and has others build for him fits in here.

There are artists in each field. But, when you get so busy you have to hire someone to work under you, you cease to be a lone star and become more of a "factory". When someone within that factory setting creates or designs something on their own, they should get the right to identify it as their work.

Custom - Webster's New World Dictionary - made or done to order.

Nobody ever said a mass production, or factory, or assembly-style business cannot build custom items. In fact, in my opinion, any company able to do that generally earns a little extra recognition for the ability to accomodate the customer.

As I stated earlier, I believe it is the buyer's responsibility to educate himself on what he is buying. Some people don't care. Some care very much.

There is one thing I believe very strongly. If I go to a company and request a custom item to be made by X person, I expect X person to be the one who builds it from the bottom to the top, if I am going to pay a premium price for it. There will be certain items I know will be built by other companies, such as bumpers, hinges, bolts, etc.. But, the actual design, assembly and decoration should be only by the person I requested to build that item and I expect that person's signature to be on that item to prove it was done by him/her and nobody else. Because that company allowed and/or enabled the creation of the item I custom ordered, I expect the item will bear the company label, as well as the signature of the custom creator.

There is definitely a difference in a company name (or label) and a custom artist's signature.

By the way, that is a GORGEOUS case!

Thanks! I agree with almost everything you have said here.

The only exception I have is that when someone is working in another man's shop then everything done there is done because that man provides the opportunity and platform. As such when elements are developed there that are new and unique then it's not really a "right" that the person who developed them should get the credit or be recognized somehow. It's a nice thing to do to allow others to get credit for the things that they do in a shop but it's not a right as long as you are drawing a paycheck from the owner of the shop.

I do believe that when it comes to art that decorates an item that it is important to recognize the artist. I did this with the designs on the Sterling Graphic Cues www.sterlingcue.com

Many times people will go work for someone in order to learn and they will have the ambition to be on their own. While there they may stretch out and design/develop new things that the owner never thought of or cared to do. In these situations the shop gets the credit since it's under their banner. However when the person who did the actual innovating goes out on their own they can then point back to the things they did and use that as part of their portfolio.

And THIS is really the crux of my whole point.

Craig looks at this detailed case and thinks that I have no right to sign it because Zhen Hai did all the tooling work and others did most of the construction (Zhen Hai signed it also but I haven't shown the picture yet).

But what Craig fails to see is that this case is not a JB Case because of the tooling on it. It's a JB case because of the way it's built and the way it's built is entirely done that way because it's how I designed it, every last little bit of it. The tooling is the icing on the cake but if Zhen Hai left me then JB Cases would continue to exist and when customers requested custom tooled cases we would hire someone else to do it. This is no different than saddle shops who hire toolers to decorate the saddles. The shops are famous for the quality of the saddles they build first and foremost and for the beauty of the tooling second.

Lastly Craig assumes that I did no work on the case and this is honestly something that he cannot possibly know. I understand his stance on things but honestly, he isn't flying around the country to check on whether the people he buys things from are the only ones doing work on the things he buys.

 

[Detlev Rackow]

I was the winner of the AZ Case that John Barton offered in a drawing. John was completely up front about "HIS SHOP" buildng the case. John designed this case for me and "HIS SHOP" (under his supervision built it for me). He told me he was training "HIS STAFF" to do cases.

AT NO TIME DID JOHN BARTON EVER STATE HE WAS BUILDING THE CASE HIMSELF. He as always stated "HIS SHOP" was building the case. I knew all along that the people that worked for him built the case under his supervision.

I think everybody that buys his cases KNOWS HIS STAFF MAKES THE CASES and not him. HE DIDN'T MOVE TO CHINA TO BUILD CASES HIMSELF, he could of stayed in the USA to do that - HELLO!!!!!!!!

I would be very upset if I spent 3,000 for a Paul Mottey cue and found out later that an apprentice built it. JOHN BARTON FROM DAY ONE SAID HE HIRED PEOPLE TO BUILD HIS CASES.

John Barton signed my case also but I knew all along that "HIS STAFF" built the case under his supervision and by him signing this case verified that is came from his shop.

That's quite right. A quote from John's page IN THE GOOGLE CACHE, not from today:

---
At present I live and work in Xiamen, China. I have built a small workshop to design and create pool cue cases. Working with me are a team of talented designers, pattern makers, toolers, and tailors. Some work with me at my workshop and others are contracted. We have the full resources of large factories and well as the flexibility of a small shop. There is almost nothing outside the realm of possiblilty for us. Our only limitations are imagination and money.

I will do my utmost to use the very best materials to provide the highest level of protection that fits your desired design and your stated needs. I won't be able to do the impossible but I might get close and surprise you with the results.

Myself and my team are ready to make you the case of your dreams.
---

The page is much longer, and contains a lot of text in which John is quite upfront about the fact that quite a lot of people work in his shop, and they will obviously not just answer the phone.

I don't own a JB-case, but I considered a lot of alternatives before I ordered my case, and I was fully aware that John has some people who work under his supervision. This would not have been a problem for me, it's just that I prefer my case much plainer, and that Mr Thomas' cases suit my taste better.

Best regards,

Detlev

 

[JB Cases]

I would be very upset if I spent 3,000 for a Paul Mottey cue and found out later that an apprentice built it.

Do a check of the AZ Billiards Archive that has happened to a forum member, and yes the cues buyer found out at the Billiards Expo that his cue was built by Pauls apprentise, and tes he was pissed I mean Hello!!!!!

John Barton signed my case also but I knew all along that "HIS STAFF" built the case under his supervision and by him signing this case verified that is came from his shop.[/

The Logo JB cases also kinda tells you the case came from Johns shop doesn't it!! Generally Craftsman sign something they made.

HE DIDN'T MOVE TO CHINA TO BUILD CASES HIMSELF, he could of stayed in the USA to do that -

Please tell us since you apparently know, why did he move to China?

Thanks for your opinion.

Actually Craig when we did Bob's cases I was not using the current JB Cases logo. I don't remember which case we started that one but it was sometime last year. Before that I did sign all the cases.

I am not sure why you feel the need to attack Bob or discuss why I am in China when you are concerned about derailing the thread.

But for the record it's because Sterling Gaming sent me here to help them develop products and do quality control on the ones we now sell that are imported from China. Along the way I got the jones again to make custom cases and here we are.

The cool thing is that for me what we learn by doing the custom cases makes it way into the mass production ones. Good thing I didn't have my signature laser engraved in those or you would really be flipping out.

The whole thing boils down to each person's own preferences, which as I said is a good topic to discuss when it's not done specifically to attack someone else.

John Barton Signing this post because I made it.

 

[JesPiddlin]

I did not look at the thread that was referenced near the beginning of this thread. From what I am reading and beginning to see in this thread.....

Craig..... You are right that the buyer has a right to know the truth about specifically who built an item, if it is important to them. But, that is where the buyer has to take the initiative and find out what he can about the item before he buys it. If the item is advertised as being built by someone other than the person who built it, that is false advertising. If it is built by someone, but sold by a company who hired them to do the construction work, that is a business. Levi jeans hires people to sew for them, but they do not tell us their names. The only real difference I see here is that you actually have communication with the person who signs these cases and because he is one person and not just a company, and because you are used to dealing with an individual maker, it is hard to relate to this as being a business like Levis, with unnamed individuals doing most of the work, unless they do something spectacular on a custom ordered item. I totally get where you're coming from, but I believe I understand where John is coming from, too. You are both right in a way, but refusing to see over the brick walls you have built.

If I was a teacher, I'd smack you both on the rear and send you home to your mothers to explain why you got in trouble. But, I'm not a teacher and you're both a bit too big to send home to your mothers. So, I'm gonna back out of this and let you two work it out. You're both a couple of pretty smart guys, so I'm figuring you'll get it worked out, eventually. If anything I have said has helped either one of you understand more, I am glad.

 

[JB Cases]

John if you spent all the time that you spend being insecure, building a case you could build one hell of a case John!!!!!!!!

Scary thought isn't it. Just imagine if all the time I spent today doing this had been spent developing more great cases.

But I suspect that you may have forgotten to much along the way, and it may be more difficult than you remember!!!!!!

Take Care John!!!!

Huh, what the hell are you talking about? Are we back to a case only being worth anything if it's built by only one person? I already told you that if you want to pay me what I feel my time is worth then I will build you a case that no one but me does anything on it. What do you think my time is worth that I should drop all the other projects I have and work on just your case?

One thing is certain though, I have forgotten more about case making than you will ever know. I am sure of that from our conversations. Remember when you threatened to bandsaw an Instroke case to prove your assertion that they were built in a way you consider to be inferior? You do remember that I had to correct you on that right? Or are you going to actually go and bandsaw one for us? I can tell you a less destructive way to prove yourself wrong and you can still sell the case later.

Where you come up with this stuff is beyond me.

 

[mdavis228]

Anybody remember hearing the names James White & Mike Cochran? Anybody communicated with Laurie Franklin about "Jerry Franklin era" Southwests, and had her say that by the early mid 90's Jerry wasn't doing much besides supervise & spraying finish because all the processes & equipment were in place?
If I buy a Paul Mottey, I'm not going to expect (or receive) a discounted price based on the expectation that Jim White may do a good bit of the work. If I sell a Tim Scruggs, I'm not going to drop the price based on a suggestion by a potential customer that Mike Cochran may have been largely involved. These are things I know as an educated and realistic buyer. As an educated buyer, I'm also aware that there's no way in the world that there's $5000 difference in quality between a 4 point Hoppe style built by Barry Szamboti & one built by Tim Scruggs, or Jim White, or Jeff Olney for that matter. If I call had called Paul Mottey 8 yrs ago & suggested he knock a grand off the price of my cue since his "apprentice" would likely be involved in the cue, I'm quite sure he'd have helped me feel free to choose another cuemaker.
Tony Zinzola is making me a cue right now. It'll be nice. It'll be made exclusively by him, to spec's that were, in part, dictated by me & with materials specified by me (though not "chosen" by me, although not entirely with parts he crafted - screws, etc. - but it's not 5 grand. Tony is enlisting some VERY high grade tutelage in an effort to further his skills and, when/if he is able to utilize that help to enhance his ability to execute, he will deserve a reasonable expectation that he can charge more for his product. Still, the market will, in great part, dictate the extent to which he can act on that expectation and, certainly, the extent to which his product's value can maintain or increase it's level.
Dennis Searing will be making me a cue in the not too distant future. It will cost more. I view the opportunity, and align my own expectations of the finished product, from a different perspective. Deservedly so - for me & for Dennis.

 

[manwon]

Actually Craig when we did Bob's cases I was not using the current JB Cases logo. I don't remember which case we started that one but it was sometime last year. Before that I did sign all the cases.

I am not sure why you feel the need to attack Bob or discuss why I am in China when you are concerned about derailing the thread.

But for the record it's because Sterling Gaming sent me here to help them develop products and do quality control on the ones we now sell that are imported from China. Along the way I got the jones again to make custom cases and here we are.

The cool thing is that for me what we learn by doing the custom cases makes it way into the mass production ones. Good thing I didn't have my signature laser engraved in those or you would really be flipping out.

The whole thing boils down to each person's own preferences, which as I said is a good topic to discuss when it's not done specifically to attack someone else.

John Barton Signing this post because I made it.

I am not sure why you feel the need to attack Bob or discuss why I am in China when you are concerned about derailing the thread.

All I did was ask Bob a question, Bob made the statement like he knew why you moved to China, but lets face it John you will take anything you can out of context to use the word attack, because everyone is out to get little John!!!!!!!.

John, thanks for keeping this thread on top, I certainly appreciate the extra air time it has received, it also has given me the information I was after, while many have not posted they have added to the poll. The poll is really all that is important and whether you agree with it or not really is not important, because many others do, Dude my pm box is full, and not only from your Pm's!!!

In the end John, you are your own worst enemy and with every attempt to change the subject, or deflect comments, or to promote yourself the poll grows larger!!!!!:grin:

Thanks for your Support John.