What is more important when buying Cues and Cases who built it or who signed it!!!

[manwon]

Scary thought isn't it. Just imagine if all the time I spent today doing this had been spent developing more great cases.



Huh, what the hell are you talking about? Are we back to a case only being worth anything if it's built by only one person? I already told you that if you want to pay me what I feel my time is worth then I will build you a case that no one but me does anything on it. What do you think my time is worth that I should drop all the other projects I have and work on just your case?

One thing is certain though, I have forgotten more about case making than you will ever know. I am sure of that from our conversations. Remember when you threatened to bandsaw an Instroke case to prove your assertion that they were built in a way you consider to be inferior? You do remember that I had to correct you on that right? Or are you going to actually go and bandsaw one for us? I can tell you a less destructive way to prove yourself wrong and you can still sell the case later.

Where you come up with this stuff is beyond me.

Huh, what the hell are you talking about? Are we back to a case only being worth anything if it's built by only one person? I already told you that if you want to pay me what I feel my time is worth then I will build you a case that no one but me does anything on it. What do you think my time is worth that I should drop all the other projects I have and work on just your case?

John I think your afraid of the competition and that is what all this is really about anyway, you feel threatened. John, first of all I do not want you to build me a case, I only want you to fairly compete with those who you feel threaten you in some small way by offering your example of Johns work. But, I suppose that will never happen and it really doesn't even matter because like you said it would be impossible to tell your personal work for that of your underlings anyway!!!!

 

[watchez]

I think that if someone signs a cue or case and it is being sought after as a collectible piece of art, then it should be the person that made and built the case.

I wouldn't buy a Picasso if it was made by someone that Picasso had taught to paint like him, but Picasso signed it.

I think it would be more appropriate to sign, and if the reason for the signature is to give credit to the design and craftsmanship, as 'Designed by John Barton'.

However, that being said - John has always been clear on here that he has a shop of workers. I am not sure what Manwon thought he was buying if he ordered a case from JB. If I ordered a case tomorrow, I would clearly know that I was buying something his crew would build and JB would help design it. But I think I would be clear and tell JB not to sign it. He can stamp it JB Cases or whatever but his signature would be only something to stroke his ego and have nothing to do with the overall value of the case.

Again, it comes down to if the signature if put on there to enhance its' value as a piece of art or simply to state who the creator is. If you by a shirt by P Diddy and it has his signature on it, I don't actually think he wove the thread and dyed the shirt. The signature is merely a way to express the designer.....and a shirt is normally not considered a piece of art.

Great case BTW. Tell Zhen he does fantastic work. Personally, I have a design for a case but unlike a cue that I could 'sit on' and keep pristine and maybe occasionally play with, I don't think I could do the same with a case. I would use it, travel with it and beat it up. Therefore, I can't get myself to spend $700+ on one.

Finally - to clarify, does Justis have a crew or is he the sole maker of his cases? I only ask as Justis seems to be the compare all to the cases that are considered works of art.

 

[TWOFORPOOL]

JB Cases

Back when John moved to China he clearly stated he went there to build cases. His primary duties were for another case maker there but was going to start building his own line of cases. I remember this since he did the drawing for a free case to let everybody know what he was going to do. I think if review the threads you can find out where John stated this.

When John built my case I sent him a drawing of what I wanted. My drawing looked like a Justis case and John said he couldn't build this case because it looked so much like a Justis case. He then said he would design a case simular to what I wanted but would add a flare. He sent me several designs THAT WERE PROFESSIONAL DONE. This drawings were very detailed and looked like an designer/engineer drew them. I guarntee you that John spent not less than 20-30 hours designing my case. We made a few minor changes and he sent me another set of drawings TO MAKE SURE I APPROVED THEM AND WAS HAPPY.

The initial cutout (done on real leather) of my case had several problems a John pointed out and showed me only to make some changes again to make sure it was exactly what I wanted. He threw initial leather patterns away since they weren't good enough.

John is a designer of cases and wants everything to be perfect for his customers. Again John has always stated he designs cases and his staff builds them. I would bet from start to finish there was at least 50 hours of design and labor to build my case. He might of made 20.00 an hour to build my case.

 

[TWOFORPOOL]

Who signed it should build it.

When you buy a Ferrari everybody knows he didn't build it but what a car to have. You buy the car because of the design and craftsmanship built into the car from the employees of Ferrari. I think most people know that John doesn't actually build the cases but what a case to have.

 

[manwon]

When you buy a Ferrari everybody knows he didn't build it but what a car to have. You buy the car because of the design and craftsmanship built into the car from the employees of Ferrari. I think most people know that John doesn't actually build the cases but what a case to have.

Bob, I agree with you completely above, and no one ever said that John said he builds the JB Cases himself, at least I have haven't made that claim. But, when John starts talking about raising the bar, and and taking it up a notch, and everything else he has said concerning competition he should be personally involved. I think raising the bar is great, but there is a difference between what is produced from in tooled factory and what is produced by the hands of a single craftsman.

I just think John should become more hands on, maybe then he would receive the praise that he obviously so greatly desires.

Take care Bob and thanks for your comments.

 

[manwon]

Back when John moved to China he clearly stated he went there to build cases. His primary duties were for another case maker there but was going to start building his own line of cases. I remember this since he did the drawing for a free case to let everybody know what he was going to do. I think if review the threads you can find out where John stated this.

When John built my case I sent him a drawing of what I wanted. My drawing looked like a Justis case and John said he couldn't build this case because it looked so much like a Justis case. He then said he would design a case simular to what I wanted but would add a flare. He sent me several designs THAT WERE PROFESSIONAL DONE. This drawings were very detailed and looked like an designer/engineer drew them. I guarntee you that John spent not less than 20-30 hours designing my case. We made a few minor changes and he sent me another set of drawings TO MAKE SURE I APPROVED THEM AND WAS HAPPY.

The initial cutout (done on real leather) of my case had several problems a John pointed out and showed me only to make some changes again to make sure it was exactly what I wanted. He threw initial leather patterns away since they weren't good enough.

John is a designer of cases and wants everything to be perfect for his customers. Again John has always stated he designs cases and his staff builds them. I would bet from start to finish there was at least 50 hours of design and labor to build my case. He might of made 20.00 an hour to build my case.

]Back when John moved to China he clearly stated he went there to build cases. His primary duties were for another case maker there but was going to start building his own line of cases. I remember this since he did the drawing for a free case to let everybody know what he was going to do. I think if review the threads you can find out where John stated this.

The reason John went to China was because Sterling Billiards Supplies. John is there front man in China and he helps them with issues that arise and with quality and general manufacturing, John has stated this many times.

Why do companies more their operations to China Bob? What is the major reason since you brought it up, I would like to know what you think.

Thanks for your comments Bob

 

[scruffy1]

Hello Az, what is more important who made a product or which shop it came from and who signed it. Is it important when spending hundreds of dollars that the actually craftsman who signed the cue or case actually built it. For instance, if you ordered a cue from a famous Cue maker or Case maker would it matter to you that his apprentise actually made your Cue or Case? This has happened to members on the forum, they have paid three figures and later found out that the item was made by an apprentise. Are you really getting what you paid for, or is the item less meaningful or even less valuable? In the same thought, is their a differance between items made by multiple people and items made by a single person?

To me if I buy something from an indiviual I am buying it because I like that persons Craftsmanship, and I want thier hands to build my purchase, is this unreasonable?

Please post your thoughts on this subject!!!!

Thanks Craig

OMFG, I just got off the phone with Arnold Palmer. Turns out he didnt make these clubs at all!!!! It really looked like his sig???

 

[TWOFORPOOL]

JB Cases

John has an ego as most of us do but the fact is his shop builds a great case.

Manwon, I also didn't feel attacked by you in this thread or any other thread. As a matter of fact I enjoy your comments here and consider you one of the more intelligent and knowledgeable persons on AZ Billiards.

 

[JB Cases]

Craig,

Please, either stop making assumptions about my phsyical involvement with the construction of my cases or take the time to actually read what I wrote to find out how much I am involved in the construction of my cases.

For the last time, when something is done on my cases that is different and in some way "raises the bar" then I either invented it or directed it to be done.

And Sterling did not move their operations to China. They sent me to China so that I could be helpful to Sterling in the best way I can, which is to design products and be a nitpicky quality control person. For someone who wants to keep the thread on track you sure have a knack for latching on to off-topic things.

 

[TWOFORPOOL]

JB Cases

"Why do companies more their operations to China Bob? What is the major reason since you brought it up, I would like to know what you think."

I think it has something to do with MONEY. But thats another debate/argument that I don't care to get into!

 

[manwon]

OMFG, I just got off the phone with Arnold Palmer. Turns out he didnt make these clubs at all!!!! It really looked like his sig???

Wow, I would have thought you could have figured that out without a phone call, but people never cease to amaze me.

Oh and by the way Arnold was a lucky man, on the Johnny Carson show back in the 1960's, Johnny had Arnolds wife on his show. Johnny asked Arnolds wife what she did to bring him luck before a Golf tournament, and she said that she would Kiss His balls to Bring him Luck!!!!! Johnny's comment was that he would bet that makes his putter stand on end!!!!!

So what your actually saying is Arnold didn't really sign your Putter!!!!!!!

Thanks for your comments

 

[manwon]

"Why do companies more their operations to China Bob? What is the major reason since you brought it up, I would like to know what you think."

I think it has something to do with MONEY. But thats another debate/argument that I don't care to get into!

That is exactly the reason they started their operations in China, there is no Cheaper labor around, and since everything we are talking about has to do with Labor nothing more needs to be said.

Thanks for your comments Bob

 

[manwon]

Craig,

Please, either stop making assumptions about my phsyical involvement with the construction of my cases or take the time to actually read what I wrote to find out how much I am involved in the construction of my cases.

For the last time, when something is done on my cases that is different and in some way "raises the bar" then I either invented it or directed it to be done.

And Sterling did not move their operations to China. They sent me to China so that I could be helpful to Sterling in the best way I can, which is to design products and be a nitpicky quality control person. For someone who wants to keep the thread on track you sure have a knack for latching on to off-topic things.

And Sterling did not move their operations to China

I agree John, you can not move something to China that started in China, and I have no doubt that you are a very capable and nitpicky quality control person.

Take Care John, and come on John really raise the Bar!!!!

 

[manwon]

John has an ego as most of us do but the fact is his shop builds a great case.

Manwon, I also didn't feel attacked by you in this thread or any other thread. As a matter of fact I enjoy your comments here and consider you one of the more intelligent and knowledgeable persons on AZ Billiards.

Manwon, I also didn't feel attacked by you in this thread

Thanks for that statement Bob, what I said was never meant to be a personal attack on you. I am grateful for your other kind words, the comments about everything being an attack was Johns and his alone, but that is just how he rolls when he is backed into a corner!!!!

Thanks for your comments and take care.

 

[manwon]

That's quite right. A quote from John's page IN THE GOOGLE CACHE, not from today:

---
At present I live and work in Xiamen, China. I have built a small workshop to design and create pool cue cases. Working with me are a team of talented designers, pattern makers, toolers, and tailors. Some work with me at my workshop and others are contracted. We have the full resources of large factories and well as the flexibility of a small shop. There is almost nothing outside the realm of possiblilty for us. Our only limitations are imagination and money.

I will do my utmost to use the very best materials to provide the highest level of protection that fits your desired design and your stated needs. I won't be able to do the impossible but I might get close and surprise you with the results.

Myself and my team are ready to make you the case of your dreams.
---

The page is much longer, and contains a lot of text in which John is quite upfront about the fact that quite a lot of people work in his shop, and they will obviously not just answer the phone.

I don't own a JB-case, but I considered a lot of alternatives before I ordered my case, and I was fully aware that John has some people who work under his supervision. This would not have been a problem for me, it's just that I prefer my case much plainer, and that Mr Thomas' cases suit my taste better.

Best regards,

Detlev

Thanks very much for your Comments.

 

[Nostroke]

Wow, I would have thought you could have figured that out without a phone call, but people never cease to amaze me.

Oh and by the way Arnold was a lucky man, on the Johnny Carson show back in the 1960's, Johnny had Arnolds wife on his show. Johnny asked Arnolds wife what she did to bring him luck before a Golf tournament, and she said that she would Kiss His balls to Bring him Luck!!!!! Johnny's comment was that he would bet that makes his putter stand on end!!!!!

/QUOTE]

You believe that?

 

[manwon]

Wow, I would have thought you could have figured that out without a phone call, but people never cease to amaze me.

Oh and by the way Arnold was a lucky man, on the Johnny Carson show back in the 1960's, Johnny had Arnolds wife on his show. Johnny asked Arnolds wife what she did to bring him luck before a Golf tournament, and she said that she would Kiss His balls to Bring him Luck!!!!! Johnny's comment was that he would bet that makes his putter stand on end!!!!!

/QUOTE]

You believe that?

After some research it may be an Urban legend, but I certain thought it was something that happened.

You got me there!!!!

 

[JB Cases]

Craig,

You could never back me into a corner and especially not with the weak arguments you have posed here.

Everything is not "just about the labor" Craig, that's the whole point.

Not that you will "get it" but who should get the credit for the existence of your pool room, Full Splice Billiards? Whose responsibility is it that your pool room stands as it does and who runs it? You have mentioned many times on this forum that YOU do this or you do that in YOUR business. I have never heard you say that your staff does anything, never heard you say that anyone besides YOU had anything to do with YOUR poolroom. I certainly don't know their names as you have never mentioned them.

By the logic you wish to impress upon craftsman concerning how they work and market themselves I have to think that you are the only person who conceived of, paid for, built everything, and works in your business. Is this true, do you do everything all by yourself to bring a quality poolroom to the public?

If so then I have to say you are my hero. I was part owner of a pool room in Germany called Maxie's that was a ton of work to design, renovate, and manage. There is no way we could have done it without a lot of talented and dedicated people.

 

[JB Cases]

Huh, what the hell are you talking about? Are we back to a case only being worth anything if it's built by only one person? I already told you that if you want to pay me what I feel my time is worth then I will build you a case that no one but me does anything on it. What do you think my time is worth that I should drop all the other projects I have and work on just your case?

John I think your afraid of the competition and that is what all this is really about anyway, you feel threatened. John, first of all I do not want you to build me a case, I only want you to fairly compete with those who you feel threaten you in some small way by offering your example of Johns work. But, I suppose that will never happen and it really doesn't even matter because like you said it would be impossible to tell your personal work for that of your underlings anyway!!!!

How could I possibly feel threatened? Threatened by what, that the orders will all dry up because Jack or Jim or Rusty builds a KILLER case? What could any other case maker do that could possibly threatened me. What are you a psychologist now in addition to your case making expertise?

Fairly compete? So it's unfair if I choose to build a shop where I have the ability to innovate and create new ways to do things? That is somehow unfair?

There was a time when people were rewarded for doing what I am doing. Not only have I figured out how to make the cases I want to make with the ability to literally invent and implement new methods on the fly but I also managed to put five people to work through it. And also more people benefit because the things that get invented to make the custom cases better are also able to be used right away in the mass production cases.

Imagine getting Porsche designed and tested suspension and engine performance for the price of a Ford Escort. That's what my setup brings to the table.

The truth of the matter is Craig that no matter what I do you will find some way to denigrate it. If I did a video of me building a case from start to finish then you would find some way to attempt to discredit it.

However, if you'd like to make a bet then I will bet you the following - you placed an order with Chas Clements for a $1200 envelope case.

I will bet you that $1200 that I can and will make a completely tooled case that is constructed the same or similar to Rusty's case he did for you with the same level of tooling done entirely by me in the next 30 days. If I don't then I will paypal you $1200 and your case by Chas is free. If I do however make this case then you transfer your Clements order to me.

How is that? Since you want to see a JB Case that is built entirely by me I will be happy to do it if there is some incentive to do so. The incentive for me here is that you have challenged me and I propose the bet to make the challenge interesting. The $1200 won't begin to cover my time but taking your Clements order away would be payment enough.

Of course you can order another one from Chas but if I win the bet you have to allow him to deliver mine before your second order. I think that you are honorable enough to do that.

 

[manwon]

Craig,

You could never back me into a corner and especially not with the weak arguments you have posed here.

Everything is not "just about the labor" Craig, that's the whole point.

Not that you will "get it" but who should get the credit for the existence of your pool room, Full Splice Billiards? Whose responsibility is it that your pool room stands as it does and who runs it? You have mentioned many times on this forum that YOU do this or you do that in YOUR business. I have never heard you say that your staff does anything, never heard you say that anyone besides YOU had anything to do with YOUR poolroom. I certainly don't know their names as you have never mentioned them.

By the logic you wish to impress upon craftsman concerning how they work and market themselves I have to think that you are the only person who conceived of, paid for, built everything, and works in your business. Is this true, do you do everything all by yourself to bring a quality poolroom to the public?

If so then I have to say you are my hero. I was part owner of a pool room in Germany called Maxie's that was a ton of work to design, renovate, and manage. There is no way we could have done it without a lot of talented and dedicated people.

John you certainly used a bad analogy in this post, because yes I do run my pool room myself. Many forum members who post on a regular basis on this forum will certainly attest to that fact. Even some members who are not local like Grady Mathews will also tell you the same thing. I opened my room in September 2004, I set up the delivery of the pool tables, along with all other equipment, and I built the counter areas with the help of a close friend, but I set the room up to my standards. I did have some help with the table assembly initially, however, I am able to do all the repairs, including recovering tables myself now. John there is nothing involved with this business that I can not or do not do myself.

I do have a gentleman who cleans up every day for unlimited table time, and I also have an apprentice who I am teaching to build custom cues who works on most Saturdays doing repair work for me. But I work 12 hours a day John seven days a week, running my business, building cues, and dealing with the public selling retail merchandise, along with table rental.

In the beginning it was necessary to do everything myself because of what I had set aside for funding. Now five years later, it is no longer necessary, but I am still young (49) and a very driven individual who likes to stay busy. When I retired from the US Army after 23 years I was 42 years old, and that was in 2003. I figure I will continue working for another 5 years until I am 54, then I will either sell my Pool Room or have some one else run it. Then I will build Custom Cues a few hour's a day from a shop in my New Home that is almost built and go fishing the rest of the day.

That is why you do not hear about employee's, because I really don't have any, so I suppose I am your Hero John

Thanks for being concerned John!!! Now you know the rest of the story!!!!!