What is more important when buying Cues and Cases who built it or who signed it!!!

[JB Cases]

Bob, I agree with you completely above, and no one ever said that John said he builds the JB Cases himself, at least I have haven't made that claim. But, when John starts talking about raising the bar, and and taking it up a notch, and everything else he has said concerning competition he should be personally involved. I think raising the bar is great, but there is a difference between what is produced from in tooled factory and what is produced by the hands of a single craftsman.

I just think John should become more hands on, maybe then he would receive the praise that he obviously so greatly desires.

Take care Bob and thanks for your comments.

What is the difference Craig?

Lets say that you are looking at two products - cue cases if you will.

If you knew NOTHING about who made them, where they were made, or how many people worked on them what would be "the difference".

Tell us in your "expert" evaluation how you would discern the difference between these two cases?

Also, for the record, the praise I value the most isn't what could come from someone like you who knows nothing of the craft. I appreciate the compliments that everyone pays to our work, especially the ones from the collectors on this board who have extensive hands-on experience with many and most of the best cases ever made. When they say something good then I know it comes from people who know what they are talking about.

But beyond them the praise that really matters to me more than anything comes from these people; http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=16428 These are the folks who do leather working for a living and they evaluate the product as it is presented.

 

[manwon]

How could I possibly feel threatened? Threatened by what, that the orders will all dry up because Jack or Jim or Rusty builds a KILLER case? What could any other case maker do that could possibly threatened me. What are you a psychologist now in addition to your case making expertise?

Fairly compete? So it's unfair if I choose to build a shop where I have the ability to innovate and create new ways to do things? That is somehow unfair?

There was a time when people were rewarded for doing what I am doing. Not only have I figured out how to make the cases I want to make with the ability to literally invent and implement new methods on the fly but I also managed to put five people to work through it. And also more people benefit because the things that get invented to make the custom cases better are also able to be used right away in the mass production cases.

Imagine getting Porsche designed and tested suspension and engine performance for the price of a Ford Escort. That's what my setup brings to the table.

The truth of the matter is Craig that no matter what I do you will find some way to denigrate it. If I did a video of me building a case from start to finish then you would find some way to attempt to discredit it.

However, if you'd like to make a bet then I will bet you the following - you placed an order with Chas Clements for a $1200 envelope case.

I will bet you that $1200 that I can and will make a completely tooled case that is constructed the same or similar to Rusty's case he did for you with the same level of tooling done entirely by me in the next 30 days. If I don't then I will paypal you $1200 and your case by Chas is free. If I do however make this case then you transfer your Clements order to me.

How is that? Since you want to see a JB Case that is built entirely by me I will be happy to do it if there is some incentive to do so. The incentive for me here is that you have challenged me and I propose the bet to make the challenge interesting. The $1200 won't begin to cover my time but taking your Clements order away would be payment enough.

Of course you can order another one from Chas but if I win the bet you have to allow him to deliver mine before your second order. I think that you are honorable enough to do that.

John when are you going to figure it out, it is not about the money, or how good or bad anything really is, it is all about how you personally approach the subject. John throughout this thread you have accused me of attacking you and other people. These people have posted in this thread that they did not feel attacked by my statements to them. John your ego is totally out of control, like I have said over and over again if you were not so insecure starting with my post to your thread about your new case none of this would have never happened.

Go back and read your thread John, my comments were a compliment and nothing else, I was not even the only person who thought the case was for a women, but do to your insecure attitude my post was the only one answered on the subject. Then you send me all these email saying that your case is a Rusty Melton Killer, what kind of shit is that John, you bring Rusty into something that he was never involved in from the beginning. The man has been nothing but respectful to you and everyone else here on this forum, but your jealous behavior and ego can't stand for some one else to have their day of recognition. John everyone on this forum knows how you are , the only person who doesn't seem to get it is you yourself. John sometimes there is much more to be gained by being modest than pimping yourself on a continuous basis, that is certainly one area that Rusty can without doubt teach you a great deal about!!!!!!

Reflect on what has been said John, it will do you a World of good brother, because there is one thing we completely agree upon you have nothing to prove to anyone, well except yourself!!!!:wink:

 

[manwon]

What is the difference Craig?

Lets say that you are looking at two products - cue cases if you will.

If you knew NOTHING about who made them, where they were made, or how many people worked on them what would be "the difference".

Tell us in your "expert" evaluation how you would discern the difference between these two cases?

Also, for the record, the praise I value the most isn't what could come from someone like you who knows nothing of the craft. I appreciate the compliments that everyone pays to our work, especially the ones from the collectors on this board who have extensive hands-on experience with many and most of the best cases ever made. When they say something good then I know it comes from people who know what they are talking about.

But beyond them the praise that really matters to me more than anything comes from these people; http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=16428 These are the folks who do leather working for a living and they evaluate the product as it is presented.

John, I hope you don't stroked other parts of body like to attempt to stroke your own ego because there would only be a bone left!!!!! :grin:

But beyond them the praise that really matters to me more than anything comes from these people; http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=16428 These are the folks who do leather working for a living and they evaluate the product as it is presented.[/QUOTE]

Oh and by the way John, I hope everyone who reads this thread go's to the Leather Workers forum, and yes I am a member and I have been lurking there for some time. I hope others reading this thread go there so everyone will know that you have the same problem there with your ego and also see how you approach others involved in your craft!!!!

Dude you just don't get it!!!! All I can say is WOW

 

[manwon]

Hey John have you looked at the poll to this thread, it is getting a great deal bigger, please keep pumping it up, I think this thread would have died by now if not for you!!!!!!:thumbup::thumbup:

Thanks John!!

 

[JB Cases]

John you certainly used a bad analogy in this post, because yes I do run my pool room myself. Many forum members who post on a regular basis on this forum will certainly attest to that fact. Even some members who are not local like Grady Mathews will also tell you the same thing. I opened my room in September 2004,

No it wasn't a bad analogy at all. It was a question meant to establish a basis for discussion.

I set up the delivery of the pool tables, along with all other equipment, and I built the counter areas with the help of a close friend, but I set the room up to my standards.

So what is the difference between you "arranging and designing" and building with help and what I do? In this post you are taking all the credit for what your room is as you should.

I did have some help with the table assembly initially, however, I am able to do all the repairs, including recovering tables myself now.

Good for you. You have become self-reliant after learning from others how to do the work. I also know how to recover tables having done many of them but I prefer to let other people do that work as it's much to tedious for me. I know where my own limitations are in this regard.

John there is nothing involved with this business that I can not or do not do myself.

I would expect nothing less given your stance in this thread. That was not my point. You SHOULD be able to do everything involved in your business or at least have a working knowledge of how it should be done.

I can also do everything related to making cue cases. I said this before, I can and do use the sewing machine, I can and do run the laser, I can and do make patterns from scratch, and I can tool and dye but I don't do it because I am impatient and not very artistic in this regard. I don't ask my employees to do anything that I am not willing and able to sit down and do myself.

I do have a gentleman who cleans up every day for unlimited table time, and I also have an apprentice who I am teaching to build custom cues who works on most Saturdays doing repair work for me.

I assume you offer full disclosure to your customers about who keeps the tables clean and who installs their tips

But I work 12 hours a day John seven days a week, running my business, building cues, and dealing with the public selling retail merchandise, along with table rental.

Welcome to the club.

In the beginning it was necessary to do everything myself because of what I had set aside for funding.

Again, welcome to the club.

Now five years later, it is no longer necessary, but I am still young (49) and a very driven individual who likes to stay busy. When I retired from the US Army after 23 years I was 42 years old, and that was in 2003. I figure I will continue working for another 5 years until I am 54, then I will either sell my Pool Room or have some one else run it. Then I will build Custom Cues a few hour's a day from a shop in my New Home that is almost built and go fishing the rest of the day.

Didn't really need all this information but it's nice to see that you are working towards a goal which makes it sad for me that you would seek to denigrate someone else who is doing the same thing.

That is why you do not hear about employee's, because I really don't have any, so I suppose I am your Hero John

Thanks for being concerned John!!! Now you know the rest of the story!!!!!

Well not quite my hero based on that story. To paraphrase you I would have been much more impressed if you had done and continue to do everything all by yourself. But based on the story it's clear that Full Splice Billiards exists because you had the vision and desire to plan it out and the wisdom to enlist help where your own skill was inadequate until such time as you had learned what you need to so that you don't need to hire others.

I am not concerned. I wanted to illustrate a point and you did a great job of doing that.

 

[manwon]

No it wasn't a bad analogy at all. It was a question meant to establish a basis for discussion.

I set up the delivery of the pool tables, along with all other equipment, and I built the counter areas with the help of a close friend, but I set the room up to my standards.

I would expect nothing less given your stance in this thread. That was not my point. You SHOULD be able to do everything involved in your business or at least have a working knowledge of how it should be done.

I can also do everything related to making cue cases. I said this before, I can and do use the sewing machine, I can and do run the laser, I can and do make patterns from scratch, and I can tool and dye but I don't do it because I am impatient and not very artistic in this regard. I don't ask my employees to do anything that I am not willing and able to sit down and do myself.



I assume you offer full disclosure to your customers about who keeps the tables clean and who installs their tips



Welcome to the club.



Again, welcome to the club.



Didn't really need all this information but it's nice to see that you are working towards a goal which makes it sad for me that you would seek to denigrate someone else who is doing the same thing.



Well not quite my hero based on that story. To paraphrase you I would have been much more impressed if you had done and continue to do everything all by yourself. But based on the story it's clear that Full Splice Billiards exists because you had the vision and desire to plan it out and the wisdom to enlist help where your own skill was inadequate until such time as you had learned what you need to so that you don't need to hire others.

I am not concerned. I wanted to illustrate a point and you did a great job of doing that.

John, please continue to bump this thread to the top!!!

 

[JB Cases]

Hey John have you looked at the poll to this thread, it is getting a great deal bigger, please keep pumping it up, I think this thread would have died by now if not for you!!!!!!:thumbup::thumbup:

Thanks John!!

My pleasure. I hope you know how to interpret the results because I am fairly certain that you think that they support your position overwhelmingly when they don't. This is why I advised you to be careful when you construct these "polls" and to think about how you word them. When they are done hastily as a way to FLAME someone then they don't always go as you think because people can see through the veneer of impartiality you project AND also you leave a lot of outs for people to disagree with your point as you did here with too many choices.

There is ONLY one choice out of your six answers that agrees with you.

So out of 68 responses at this point less than half agree with you.

Is that what you expected?

 

[JB Cases]

John when are you going to figure it out, it is not about the money, or how good or bad anything really is, it is all about how you personally approach the subject. John throughout this thread you have accused me of attacking you and other people. These people have posted in this thread that they did not feel attacked by my statements to them. John your ego is totally out of control, like I have said over and over again if you were not so insecure starting with my post to your thread about your new case none of this would have never happened.

Go back and read your thread John, my comments were a compliment and nothing else, I was not even the only person who thought the case was for a women, but do to your insecure attitude my post was the only one answered on the subject. Then you send me all these email saying that your case is a Rusty Melton Killer, what kind of shit is that John, you bring Rusty into something that he was never involved in from the beginning. The man has been nothing but respectful to you and everyone else here on this forum, but your jealous behavior and ego can't stand for some one else to have their day of recognition. John everyone on this forum knows how you are , the only person who doesn't seem to get it is you yourself. John sometimes there is much more to be gained by being modest than pimping yourself on a continuous basis, that is certainly one area that Rusty can without doubt teach you a great deal about!!!!!!

Reflect on what has been said John, it will do you a World of good brother, because there is one thing we completely agree upon you have nothing to prove to anyone, well except yourself!!!!:wink:

Let's get something straight right now.

DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH.

I NEVER SAID TO YOU THAT I THOUGHT THIS CASE IS A RUSTY MELTON KILLER.

I was having a discussion with you IN PRIVATE about cases and related something I thought was interesting and BENEFICIAL to ALL CASE MAKERS.

I told the SAME THING to Rusty and we laughed about it.

You are one to talk about pimping!

How can you write stuff pimping another person's work as if you KNOW it when all you have seen is pictures? How can you equate someone with a living legend when you have never personally experienced the work from either of them?

You just can't stand it when anyone questions your statements. Not just me, you go off on others the same way when they dare to disagree with you. The whole starting a poll to generate sympathy for your point of view tactic is quite old and boring.

I actually like you Craig. We have had our words and you continue to try and make it personal with the insults when you are beaten logically but I admire your passion and willingness to stick to your position no matter how hopeless it is.

Just please don't resort to attributing things to me that I did not say. Be at least man enough to not go that low. You should re-read our conversation and think about it again before you respond.

 

[JB Cases]

John, I hope you don't stroked other parts of body like to attempt to stroke your own ego because there would only be a bone left!!!!! :grin:

But beyond them the praise that really matters to me more than anything comes from these people; http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=16428 These are the folks who do leather working for a living and they evaluate the product as it is presented.

Oh and by the way John, I hope everyone who reads this thread go's to the Leather Workers forum, and yes I am a member and I have been lurking there for some time. I hope others reading this thread go there so everyone will know that you have the same problem there with your ego and also see how you approach others involved in your craft!!!!

Dude you just don't get it!!!! All I can say is WOW

Don't be lazy. If you have evidence of this then please post the links. You're pretty funny. While I certainly don't agree with your amateur attempt to analyze me I have to ask why you think that I would act any differently at another forum? I am a member of two forums related to my craft, www.leatherworker.net and www.sawmillcreek.org for leather working and laser engraving respectively. In both of them I have no problems with anyone because we all respect each other and try to help each other further the craft.

All my posts at the Leather Worker forum - 216 posts about the craft.

What do you give back to your community Craig other than your ignorant and malformed opinions?

How about a tutorial on how to recover a table? How about a guide to building your own pool room?

Anything that you can point to that means anything?

 

[manwon]

Let's get something straight right now.

DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH.

I NEVER SAID TO YOU THAT I THOUGHT THIS CASE IS A RUSTY MELTON KILLER.

I was having a discussion with you IN PRIVATE about cases and related something I thought was interesting and BENEFICIAL to ALL CASE MAKERS.

I told the SAME THING to Rusty and we laughed about it.

You are one to talk about pimping!

How can you write stuff pimping another person's work as if you KNOW it when all you have seen is pictures? How can you equate someone with a living legend when you have never personally experienced the work from either of them?

You just can't stand it when anyone questions your statements. Not just me, you go off on others the same way when they dare to disagree with you. The whole starting a poll to generate sympathy for your point of view tactic is quite old and boring.

I actually like you Craig. We have had our words and you continue to try and make it personal with the insults when you are beaten logically but I admire your passion and willingness to stick to your position no matter how hopeless it is.

Just please don't resort to attributing things to me that I did not say. Be at least man enough to not go that low. You should re-read our conversation and think about it again before you respond.

DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH.

John you are the expert at putting words in the mouths of others you have done so throughout this thread on more than one occasion, so before you make this statement to some one else take care not to do it yourself. I am not your child, so don't come off with this don't do as I do, do as I say crap!!!!!:grin:


I NEVER SAID TO YOU THAT I THOUGHT THIS CASE IS A RUSTY MELTON KILLER.

No John, you didn't exactly say it in that context, your exact words were that your customer was over the Moon about your case, and your customer wanted a Melton Killer, which obviously your customer and in some small way you thought you had built.

So on this point you are partly correct!!!!!

I told the SAME THING to Rusty and we laughed about it.

You are one to talk about pimping!

How can you write stuff pimping another person's work as if you KNOW it when all you have seen is pictures? How can you equate someone with a living legend when you have never personally experienced the work from either of them?

I owe Rusty a call later, I will ask him how funny he thinks it is that you brought him into this entire thread, knowing Rusty he did most likely laugh, that is what a class act like Rusty would do.!

John I will bet that when you were a child you did not play well with other's. I bet you were type that took all the toys and would not let others play with them. Just like you do here, if you do not receive enough attention you do anything to get that attention back.

John I have said this before and I will say it again, I respect your accomplishments more than you will ever know, because, John I have also achieved much by hard work just like you. I also was not born with the proverbial Silver Spoon in my mouth, and everything I have today, I worked hard and sacrificed for.

The only reason, in my opinion we have exchanges like this is because at least to me you come off like the biggest Dog at the food bowel, no one else gets to eat until you have had your fill. The tension involving cases started when Rusty's work started becoming popular on the forum. You took this as invasion of your territory, and had to attack any source because it was taking attention away from you. At first you said his work is not close to the top case makers on the forum, now in a matter of months you are equating his name with them. John, have you added Rusty to your website yet? I know that up until recently he was one of the few who was not listed, maybe you just did not realize that you had over looked it.

I also Like you John, because you also stand up for your beliefs even if I do not agree with them. That is one thing we both certainly have in common.

Take Care John!!

 

[manwon]

John, I hope you don't stroked other parts of body like to attempt to stroke your own ego because there would only be a bone left!!!!! :grin:

[/B]



Don't be lazy. If you have evidence of this then please post the links. You're pretty funny. While I certainly don't agree with your amateur attempt to analyze me I have to ask why you think that I would act any differently at another forum? I am a member of two forums related to my craft, www.leatherworker.net and www.sawmillcreek.org for leather working and laser engraving respectively. In both of them I have no problems with anyone because we all respect each other and try to help each other further the craft.

All my posts at the Leather Worker forum - 216 posts about the craft.

What do you give back to your community Craig other than your ignorant and malformed opinions?

How about a tutorial on how to recover a table? How about a guide to building your own pool room?

Anything that you can point to that means anything?

What do you give back to your community Craig other than your ignorant and malformed opinions?

Watch it John I am disabled so the crack about being malformed is a little out of line!!!!!!!!!!:grin:

John unlike you I have nothing to prove to you here on the forum or here in my community. I am very satisfied and happy with what I do for others on a daily basis, and to me when you do something for others the PRIVATE SATISFACTION GAINED IS JUST THAT PRIVATE. But I will say this John nothing is more rewarding than what people do for others without alerting the Media. I do not need to Glorify myself for it, that is what being secure in word and deed is all about.

But thanks for asking about my daily good deeds John, I am glad that you are concerned, but I also think if you only knew you would not know what to say!!!!!!

 

[watchez]

What do you give back to your community Craig other than your ignorant and malformed opinions?

Watch it John I am disabled so the crack about being malformed is a little out of line!!!!!!!!!!:grin:

Craig - he used the word malformed to describe your opinion. Unless John knows you personally or has seen you (and all I have ever seen is a pic of your dog), I don't think he had any intention of making a personal attack on you.

If you want to keep your argument going, then I suggest you do so without trying to stretch too far. Your reply in this case, IMO, was weak. We can all be considerate if you are malformed and if it happened to you in your service to our country, then I am grateful.

Now back to John and him being so open - While we have John in this frame of mind, how much does Zhen get paid? And would you encourage Zhen to open up his own shop? I would think you would since you allow him to make knick knacks to sell on ebay. Ask Zhen how much it would cost for one of those really thin credit card holders.

 

[manwon]

Craig - he used the word malformed to describe your opinion. Unless John knows you personally or has seen you (and all I have ever seen is a pic of your dog), I don't think he had any intention of making a personal attack on you.

If you want to keep your argument going, then I suggest you do so without trying to stretch too far. Your reply in this case, IMO, was weak. We can all be considerate if you are malformed and if it happened to you in your service to our country, then I am grateful.

Now back to John and him being so open - While we have John in this frame of mind, how much does Zhen get paid? And would you encourage Zhen to open up his own shop? I would think you would since you allow him to make knick knacks to sell on ebay. Ask Zhen how much it would cost for one of those really thin credit card holders.

Craig - he used the word malformed to describe your opinion. Unless John knows you personally or has seen you (and all I have ever seen is a pic of your dog), I don't think he had any intention of making a personal attack on you.

If you want to keep your argument going, then I suggest you do so without trying to stretch too far. Your reply in this case, IMO, was weak. We can all be considerate if you are malformed and if it happened to you in your service to our country, then I am grateful.

I completely understood what his comments were directed to, that was the purpose of smile at the end of the post. It seems no mater how hard we try our thoughts are not always transmitted well on the INTERNET. I was actually trying to bring a little levity into this thread, John is so tight he may explode at any moment, now that would be a mess and a shame.

Oh and by the way, I do have 100% disability service connected according to the VA, but I am certainly not malformed, so my comment was partially on target.

Thank you for bringing this to my attention though, I thought my intent was clear, however, obviously I was incorrect.

Thanks again.

 

[BVal]

Does anybody know what time it is?

BVal

 

[ribdoner]

Does anybody know what time it is?

BVal

depends...(on where you are)

 

[BVal]

depends...(on where you are)

Sometimes I don't even know that but right now I am in my room.

BVal

 

[snipershot]

Craig, there is no point in arguing with JB Cases. Its like arguing with my beagle, he will bark and bark, but in the end, he just doesnt understand what people say. I think if a product has a logo, it doesnt have to be made by a certain person, but if its signed, it should be made by the person holding the pen. Signing someone elses work is like plagerism if you ask me, but thats just my opinion.



Joe

 

[dave sutton]

shesh. i read thru the forst 3 pages of this and my brain hurts. im not reading anymore.

personally im on both sides of the fence. i dont know if it was me craig was refering to in the mottey situation but i will tell the story. i got paul to make me a cue back in like 2000 or so. got it loved it. i went to sbe and saw the same exact cue made by a guy names jim white. i found out he made cues in pauls shop by jmw and traded it immed. i was very very mad.

look who JMW turned out to be

now that im in the buisness. i see how bogged down i can get and im nobody. so i could only imagine. ive done my homework. a good point was made earlier about jerry f, mike c jmw and others working under the masters. as a matter of fact barry made alot of forearms for gus. so when you buy the gus and barry made the forearm what do you do? fred didnt just pop out knowing how to make tads cues. he learned over the years and im sure many tads have had freds hands on them

to sum it up ive deff changed my views. its not like these guys just grabed any yokel off the streets and let them build a cue for you. they pick the best person for the job with care and tolerences and visions they mimic their own. most will not risk their buisness/career just to make a few more cues (DP) i trust their choices and as long as its a quility product its ok in my book

graig. i love u man. you have a passion for this buisness that i truely respect even tho we dont always agree

jb. sexy case man.....

SEACREST OUT!!!

 

[JB Cases]

Craig - he used the word malformed to describe your opinion. Unless John knows you personally or has seen you (and all I have ever seen is a pic of your dog), I don't think he had any intention of making a personal attack on you.

If you want to keep your argument going, then I suggest you do so without trying to stretch too far. Your reply in this case, IMO, was weak. We can all be considerate if you are malformed and if it happened to you in your service to our country, then I am grateful.

Now back to John and him being so open - While we have John in this frame of mind, how much does Zhen get paid? And would you encourage Zhen to open up his own shop? I would think you would since you allow him to make knick knacks to sell on ebay. Ask Zhen how much it would cost for one of those really thin credit card holders.

I pay him what he asked me for and also his rent. I don't "allow" him to make things and sell them - he was doing that well before I met him and the quality of his work is one of the reasons I hired him to work for me full time. He has been the teacher for the other people in our shop who have started to make leather goods.

From talking to other people who employ full time leather carvers I am told that what I pay is about three times the going rate. I don't believe that the exact amount is a subject of discussion.

Would I encourage him to open his own cue case shop? No I would not. I asked him not to do that and I trust him fully that he won't do it. However if he did then it would not matter to me as I know that his cases wouldn't be the same as mine because he would be doing them the way he wanted to do them and not the way I want. I do know that if he follows what I have taught him about case construction and detail that his cases would be world class.

Zhen Hai is not the only person who does tooling for me. He is the only one who is employed full time though.

Zhen Hai gets good money from his leather goods in China. Up to $200-$300 for some purses and backpacks he has made. He gets $20-$50 for wallets regularly. I have already said to him we should start selling his stuff to the USA. So I will ask him about your credit card holder. I'd show the one I designed for my personal use that I have been using for two year's but I am sure it's not what you are thinking of.

Everyone in my shop gets paid much more than they would if they were doing the same job elsewhere. All of my friends who own factories tell me I pay too much and am spoiling my staff. Then in the same breath they complain about how bad their workers are. I tell them something my British friend with a bricklaying business told me years ago, "if you pay peanuts you get monkeys."

 

[JB Cases]

The only reason, in my opinion we have exchanges like this is because at least to me you come off like the biggest Dog at the food bowel, no one else gets to eat until you have had your fill. The tension involving cases started when Rusty's work started becoming popular on the forum. You took this as invasion of your territory, and had to attack any source because it was taking attention away from you. At first you said his work is not close to the top case makers on the forum, now in a matter of months you are equating his name with them. John, have you added Rusty to your website yet? I know that up until recently he was one of the few who was not listed, maybe you just did not realize that you had over looked it.

I also Like you John, because you also stand up for your beliefs even if I do not agree with them. That is one thing we both certainly have in common.

Take Care John!!

I didn't overlook it at all. I add anyone who has a web presence (website) whose work I feel merits a recommendation.

I don't understand why you spend so much time trying to ascribe motivation to what I do. Unless you are a psychologist you should really just stick to the discussion and the points that are made.

Look it up on the history, every comment I have made to Rusty about his cases has been highly complimentary from the first case until the last.

I took exception with your characterization of Rusty's work not with Rusty's because Rusty doesn't come out and say he is the greatest thing since Chas Clements.

Do you remember when Dean Campbell was promoting his new Deano sneakies that were made by an unknown cue maker? Remember how he said that they were the best hitting cues ever and better than all the custom cues he owned and so on.... or something close to that? What did you do? You were quite critical of this and sought to discredit Dean's characterization through talking about how it wasn't worth the money Dean was asking for it. Remember we had an argument over that?

How is this any different when you then come out and start touting a new case maker as being as good as one of the best who ever lived and you haven't even seen the work except in pictures? That's all I took exception to, the fact that you set yourself up as someone who is intimate with the work of both and is qualified to rank them as equals.

I never said Rusty's work isn't close to the top makers on this forum, who are they anyway? Are you going to make a list? I said that it is my opinion that if anyone is the heir apparent to Chas Clements then it is Marc Turcasso, MatCase on this forum. And that opinion is based on my first hand knowledge of Chas Clement's style and methods when compared to what I can see of Marc's cases.

Yes Craig I "come off" as highly opinionated about cue cases because in fact I am. I am very sensitive to keeping things factual and real when it comes to cases both in construction and design. This attitude has not changed since my first postings on the Rec.Sport.Billiard group in 1996ish and there are plenty of folks here who can verify that.

I also share a lot of what I know and try to help others get a good start in their case making. Other than Chas Clements in the distant past and a little advice on tooling that Jim Murnak gave me two years ago no other case maker has ever offered me any help to improve my product. Yet I do this all the time. Does it sometimes come off as bragging or egoistic? I am sure it does as I have never been the sharpest tool in the shed when it comes to making everyone happy with my speeches. Still though the fact remains that you can find a lot of good information about how to build cases that I have shared over the years. Ask Rusty and he will tell you what he and I discussed in private concerning the way he makes cases.

But be that as it is, another good friend pointed out to me the futility of carrying on discussions like this on AZ or elsewhere. I promised him to stop and I will.

Craig, you can have the last word on this subject. You are absolutely correct in that the time I spent on this thread could have and should have been spent doing more work that creates.

As I said the subject is a good one and has a lot of merit. Here is an example that brings your point home.

When I was doing the pictures for the new Sterling cases I went to a local studio and talked with the owner who was also the main photographer. I ordered and paid for something around 600 images. When I went to review them they were horrible. I asked the owner if he did the work and he said that his assitants did it - then I asked him if he had checked it before I was summoned to view the images, he said no.

So I told him that I expected them to be done right and that I didn't care WHO did them but I wasn't accepting crap. So he did the new ones and they turned out fairly good. When I went there I had no reason to assume that the pictures would be anything less than great. As it turned out the first ones weren't and luckily this was something that could be redone.

If however the first ones had been right then I would never have known the difference unless I was very very very familiar with the owner's work.

The point of all this is as I said it's each person's preference as to what is important to them when getting something from someone. And it's their responsibility to do all the due diligence to insure as best they can that their wishes are respected.

It's unrealistic to expect all craftsmen to work alone all the time. It is realistic to expect them to be involved in the product before it is presented to the customer.

When I sign something then I am saying to my customer that I stand good for what I am giving them. I am saying to them that all that I am is invested in this case and I give it to you with pride in my and my team's accomplishment.