What is the best technic on getting the bubles out of epoxy

Co2

Cornerman said:
FWIW, I have never heard of using CO2 to de-gas epoxy. Nor has my material science colleague or my chemical engineering colleague on my team (and we are constantly developing any number of adhesive processes as our daily grind). Maybe we'll learn something today.

The standard ways to de-gas epoxy have all been mentioned in this thread:

1) Be mindful of viscosity and open time
2) Create a pressure differential (via any number of different methods), if possible

I can imagine why someone might think CO2 somehow helps, but not really directly. For example, maybe someone created a pressure differential by jetting a bottle of CO2 across the surface and attributed the success to the CO2. I'm not connecting any dots on why the CO2 would be working on incorporated air bubbles, which is normally introduced into the epoxy by mixing, since gas isn't created by the chemical reaction of epoxy resin.

Mixing in a vacuum bell jar is done in the adhesive industry. I'm not sure how feasible that could be for cue finishing.

Freddie <~~~ stuck on glue
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I wished I still had one of my wire feed welding machines ( MIG Welders )
because it uses Co2 gas.
Then I could do some of my own tests and could provide a honest factual answer.

Honestly I do not know for a fact that CO2 will pop bubbles in epoxy, I have read it will in several you tube links and in other wood related forums.

I have never mixed up any 105/207 west systems epoxy before.
And I screwed up and bought the 206 hardener when I really wanted the 207 hardener instead.
I have ordered some 207 but it hasn't came in yet.

It seems that almost all the finishes on pool cues could be technical if you have never used it before or in this case I am going to have to stumble through learning how to perfect a good long lasting hard glass like finish on a pool cue.

So I started this thread to get all the hints on how to use a epoxy on pool cues.
.

I thought Epoxy might be a finish that would work for me if I could lean how to apply it properly on a pool cue.......
 
mortuarymike-nv said:
I wished I still had one of my wire feed welding machines ( MIG Welders )
because it uses Co2 gas.
Then I could do some of my own tests and could provide a honest factual answer.

Honestly I do not know for a fact that CO2 will pop bubbles in epoxy, I have read it will in several you tube links and in other wood related forums.

[...]
Click to expand...

No need for a MIG welder to test your theory. Assuming you want a fairly pure test you need to avoid contaminating the results with the time honored methods of heat and/or directed air flow. So to prove you are right to a reasonable certainty you must introduce the CO2 to the surface of the epoxied cue without generating heat or increasing air flow across the cue's surface.

Obviously an entire cue is not necessary to prove your assertion; a shorter piece of turned wood will suffice. Place a cookie sheet or baking pan on the lathe bed under the piece of wood and tape plastic painter's drop cloth securely around the perimeter, doing your best to seal the plastic to the pan.

Now epoxy the cue up real good, then draw the plastic sheeting up around both sides and both ends to create a four-sided chamber with no top. I would expect bringing the side curtains up past the wood piece by about a foot should be high enough.

CO2 is denser than air, and therefore heavier. So if you introduce pure CO2 into the chamber it fill from the bottom up, driving out the atmospheric air. You can get the CO2 from many sources; and easy one would be a cheap cocktail 'spritzer" and a handful of the CO2 cylinders used to charge it. With a fresh cylinder in an otherwise empty spritzer you should be able to flow out pure CO2 pretty easily, though you may have to go easy on the trigger so as not to create a miniature windstorm. You can probably calculate how many canisters to use by researching the volume and rated pressure of a single full one plus a little math.

Remember you can leave the top of your "chamber" open, which is good because that's where you'll want to position the overhead video camera. This is important because you will want to record the process from beginning to conclusion, since we already have already heard from an acknowledged professional engineer who has made his living from knowing the chemistry of epoxy (among many other things). HE doesn't think CO2 has any involvement with how curing epoxy acts, and I am inclined to believe him. I believe him because I know his credentials and also because my own experience has shown that other methods work, and those methods can easily explain why a torch would raise bubbles to the surface of mixed epoxy, without involving CO2. So you will need your experiment to overcome those objections and you will want uncut video to convince those who may otherwise not trust undocumented results.

I sincerely hope you conduct this experiment so you can prove you are right. Or wrong. Either result would be of benefit to the cuemaking community.

TW
(PS: In case you're not sure, there is not a single smidgen of sarcasm in this entire post.)

 
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You never quit

Thomas Wayne said:


No need for a MIG welder to test your theory. Assuming you want a fairly pure test you need to avoid contaminating the results with the time honored methods of heat and/or directed air flow. So to prove you are right to a reasonable certainty you must introduce the CO2 to the surface of the epoxied cue without generating heat or increasing air flow across the cue's surface.

Obviously an entire cue is not necessary to prove your assertion; a shorter piece of turned wood will suffice. Place a cookie sheet or baking pan on the lathe bed under the piece of wood and tape plastic painter's drop cloth securely around the perimeter, doing your best to seal the plastic to the pan.

Now epoxy the cue up real good, then draw the plastic sheeting up around both sides and both ends to create a four-sided chamber with no top. I would expect bringing the side curtains up past the wood piece by about a foot should be high enough.

CO2 is denser than air, and therefore heavier. So if you introduce pure CO2 into the chamber it fill from the bottom up, driving out the atmospheric air. You can get the CO2 from many sources; and easy one would be a cheap cocktail 'spritzer" and a handful of the CO2 cylinders used to charge it. With a fresh cylinder in an otherwise empty spritzer you should be able to flow out pure CO2 pretty easily, though you may have to go easy on the trigger so as not to create a miniature windstorm. You can probably calculate how many canisters to use by researching the volume and rated pressure of a single full one plus a little math.

Remember you can leave the top of your "chamber" open, which is good because that's where you'll want to position the overhead video camera. This is important because you will want to record the process from beginning to conclusion, since we already have already heard from an acknowledged professional engineer who has made his living from knowing the chemistry of epoxy (among many other things). HE doesn't think CO2 has any involvement with how curing epoxy acts, and I am inclined to believe him. I believe him because I know his credentials and also because my own experience has shown that other methods work, and those methods can easily explain why a torch would raise bubbles to the surface of mixed epoxy, without involving CO2. So you will need your experiment to overcome those objections and you will want uncut video to convince those who may otherwise not trust undocumented results.

I sincerely hope you conduct this experiment so you can prove you are right. Or wrong. Either result would be of benefit to the cuemaking community.

TW
(PS: In case you're not sure, there is not a single smidgen of sarcasm in this entire post.)
Click to expand...

You win, I really wanted to keep the topic on bubbles in the epoxy and the different methods of controlling them.
I see you cannot help yourself but to always want some type of personal friction with some one.

I thank everyone who has tried to help me, but I don't need this kind of drama.
 
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I haven't had a bubble problem in a very long time. When I tried epoxy for the second time. I put it on early in the morning in July in Texas. Then went off and did something else. When I got back a few hours later the temperature had risen 30 degrees and the cue looked like bubble wrap. After that, all I have done to avoid bubbles was put the epoxy on when the temperature would be dropping in the next few hours. I put my coats on fairly thick. Level with an index card. Then about every thirty minutes relevel. Till the finish start to thicken. Takes two to three coats and I am ready to sand and buff.

Larry
 
mortuarymike-nv said:
You win, I really wanted to keep the topic on bubbles in the epoxy and the different methods of controlling them.
I see you cannot help yourself but to always want some type of personal friction with some one.

I thank everyone who has tried to help me, but I don't need this kind of drama.
Click to expand...

"Personal friction"? "Drama"? I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. A real "OMG" moment right there. You made a public wish that you owned a MIG welder so you could do experiments to test your CO2 theory. I offered you a really, REALLY easy way to test your theory without having to own a MIG welder. I pointed out that you would have to do your best to eliminate other possible causes of bubble removal, if your results were to be reliable. This stipulation is pretty much an absolute rule when conducting any scientific experiment. And I pointed out that you should use a video recorder to document your findings, especially since they run counter to the existing theories on bubble removal.

You said you "wished" you could test your theory on bubble removal. I proposed a very easy way to experiment with CO2 and bubble removal that would render results with a reasonable amount of reliability - no MIG welder required. Honestly, Mike, help me see where you think the "personal friction" and "drama" are in what I wrote. Do it by PM if you don't want to discuss it publicly.

TW

 
First, I don't belong in this thread but thought the little I know could possibly provide someone with a new idea for eliminating bubbles in there epoxy. Although my uses are for different applications, it may work for you. I am unaware of the types of epoxies cue builders are using today, so these methods may or may not work for your application. Common sense would tell you to try it on a scrap piece of wood first, but proceed however you like. Im still an avid fisherman and noticed the second video a while back on using epoxy on thread wrapping a fishing rod. Hopefully it can help someone. Now back to your regular program.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PKn-59pHNM 6:32

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCtafKSiD38 4:30 and 9:05
 
mortuarymike-nv said:
Honestly I do not know for a fact that CO2 will pop bubbles in epoxy, I have read it will in several you tube links and in other wood related forums.
Click to expand...


I've read them, too! Now that I've heard about this for the first time yesterday, I went ahead and did a search and was shocked to see how "common knowledge" the CO2 thing is for de-gassing or at least, breaking bubbles.

I suppose you can thaw some dry ice in a bell jar that has a piece of epoxy-finished wood in there to see if the CO2 without heated flow will pull the bubbles out. I'd be interested.

I went ahead asked a few more experts that might have seen the CO2 concept ... my Henkel applications lead, my overall Adhesive sales engineer, and his epoxy expert (we're talking about guys with decades each of intimate adhesive knowledge, who talk in glue language, and give seminars on the 350+ families of adhesives - experts that teach the experts). As of yet, none of these three have ever heard of the idea. The epoxy expert says, "It doesn't make any sense."

For whatever it's worth.
 
BarenbruggeCues said:
That was your first mistake!
Click to expand...

When I first started out, I used an epoxy finish. I used finish cure 20 min and West system. They both worked just fine although, epoxy does not buff to a water wet shine like some other finishes.

Over time I tried many finishes and have settled with an epoxy base coat and a water based urethane clear coat that works fine for me.

My first cue has an epoxy finish and 5 years later it still looks just fine.


Epoxy finishes do work and many cue builders use it.


Kim
 
whammo57 said:
When I first started out, I used an epoxy finish. I used finish cure 20 min and West system. They both worked just fine although, epoxy does not buff to a water wet shine like some other finishes.

Over time I tried many finishes and have settled with an epoxy base coat and a water based urethane clear coat that works fine for me.

My first cue has an epoxy finish and 5 years later it still looks just fine.


Epoxy finishes do work and many cue builders use it.


Kim
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If your epoxy finish worked so well and fine why did you change?
 
With a little practice an expoxy finish can be buffed to a shine to rival auto clear. It is also very durable. I have thirty five years painting experance both as a automotive restorer and an OEM finish tech for Peterbilt Motor Company. I chose to use epoxy because it's safer and cheaper than auto clear. And because I sold my paint booth years ago.

Larry
 
BarenbruggeCues said:
Larry, I have no doubt you are having impeccable results with your epoxy finishing.
However, based on the research I have done and the epoxy products that I deal with, they for the most part, do not offer any type of UV protection. The one epoxy product that I know for positive that does is not really suitable as a cue finish in my opinion. The main reason being is that per the lab techs recommendations it will need to be recoated occasionally [every 3-5 years were his words] because the UV additive breaks done the epoxy over time. He explained that is very difficult to get the absolute correct combination when manufacturing it for any longevity.
Based on this information is why I use a UV protective top coat over my epoxy based sealer.
I seen some of the work you are turning out and would hate for you to be spending all your time in the next 5 years refinishing cues because of this. Not saying you're wrong in choosing this route, just giving you [probably redundant] the info I have on the subject.
Click to expand...

Dave
Your finish is probably in the top 1% of cues I've held in my hands so I know your standards are high. I think you would be floored if u held one of Larrys cues after knowing it's epoxy. Its beyond me how he does but it rivals the best car finish IMO

I know you weren't dogging epoxy, just thought I'd take the opportunity to point out yalls good work and efforts
 
LGSM3 said:
Dave
Your finish is probably in the top 1% of cues I've held in my hands so I know your standards are high. I think you would be floored if u held one of Larrys cues after knowing it's epoxy. Its beyond me how he does but it rivals the best car finish IMO

I know you weren't dogging epoxy, just thought I'd take the opportunity to point out yalls good work and efforts
Click to expand...

Thanks Jake...I've worked for years to get it there. No doubt epoxy can be highly polished to rival some of the best.
 
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63Kcode said:
Thanks for you concern! I have asked Chris Hightower to post his thoughts on the use of Cue Coat on cues. Since that is the product I use. Not that I dought your un-named sources from un-named companies.

Larry
Click to expand...

I've always used all Sys3 stuff. I deal direct with them. Like any good company, tech support is a phone call away.


edit..just looked at CH cue cote on his web and he says your good to go with uv protection. Should be no problems.
 
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TW, really??

Thomas Wayne said:


No need for a MIG welder to test your theory. Assuming you want a fairly pure test you need to avoid contaminating the results with the time honored methods of heat and/or directed air flow. So to prove you are right to a reasonable certainty you must introduce the CO2 to the surface of the epoxied cue without generating heat or increasing air flow across the cue's surface.

Obviously an entire cue is not necessary to prove your assertion; a shorter piece of turned wood will suffice. Place a cookie sheet or baking pan on the lathe bed under the piece of wood and tape plastic painter's drop cloth securely around the perimeter, doing your best to seal the plastic to the pan.

Now epoxy the cue up real good, then draw the plastic sheeting up around both sides and both ends to create a four-sided chamber with no top. I would expect bringing the side curtains up past the wood piece by about a foot should be high enough.

CO2 is denser than air, and therefore heavier. So if you introduce pure CO2 into the chamber it fill from the bottom up, driving out the atmospheric air. You can get the CO2 from many sources; and easy one would be a cheap cocktail 'spritzer" and a handful of the CO2 cylinders used to charge it. With a fresh cylinder in an otherwise empty spritzer you should be able to flow out pure CO2 pretty easily, though you may have to go easy on the trigger so as not to create a miniature windstorm. You can probably calculate how many canisters to use by researching the volume and rated pressure of a single full one plus a little math.

Remember you can leave the top of your "chamber" open, which is good because that's where you'll want to position the overhead video camera. This is important because you will want to record the process from beginning to conclusion, since we already have already heard from an acknowledged professional engineer who has made his living from knowing the chemistry of epoxy (among many other things). HE doesn't think CO2 has any involvement with how curing epoxy acts, and I am inclined to believe him. I believe him because I know his credentials and also because my own experience has shown that other methods work, and those methods can easily explain why a torch would raise bubbles to the surface of mixed epoxy, without involving CO2. So you will need your experiment to overcome those objections and you will want uncut video to convince those who may otherwise not trust undocumented results.

I sincerely hope you conduct this experiment so you can prove you are right. Or wrong. Either result would be of benefit to the cuemaking community.

TW
(PS: In case you're not sure, there is not a single smidgen of sarcasm in this entire post.)
Click to expand...

If you had only left off the PS ("in case you're not sure"), I would agree, it would have been sarcasm free.
 
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