What is the best technic on getting the bubles out of epoxy

I have had a lot of success praying the bubbles away....... or is it just coincidence.????

Kim.......
 
Thomas Wayne said:


TW
(PS: Everybody's different, and no two people think exactly alike. So how about this - suppose you make an effort to not take my acerbic writing style so damned personal, and I'll make an effort to be more sensitive in my responses. Does that seem fair? Maybe we can actually discuss this kind of stuff AND get along at the same time...)
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If all sides followed this then we probably could get along.
 
Bubbles

Thomas Wayne said:


You know, Mike, that statement actually made me laugh out loud, so thanks for that. It's good to laugh now and again.

I don't see any need to beat this thing to death, but there are two points I'd like to make:

1) Nothing you wrote "upset" me; I doubt there's anything you can write - about cuemaking OR physics - that is capable of "upsetting" me. In fact, YOU were the one who went on and on about being bothered by my "sarcasm".

Here's how I see it. Suppose your and I were hanging out with a bunch of regular guys and I said, "Hey, you know what makes epoxy bubbles pop when you flow heat over them? Low pressure. Yeah, no kidding... low pressure. Who'da thunk it?"

And suppose you responded with: "What research I have done, the torch removes bubble because of the CO2 gases it creates."

To which I replied:"Interesting. I had no idea my industrial heat gun produces CO2 gases".

And at that point suppose you seemed to become focused on how my "sarcasm" was so unnecessary, and how my "smart ass remarks" were "un called for".

Now, suppose that conversation went down just like that among a bunch of regular guys - you know, men's men - and they overheard the entire conversation. Well, I don't know about your friends, but the guys I hang out with would probably start saying thins like "Uh oh... looks like someone's got their period!" or "Oooh, poor baby got his feewwings hurt", and jive like that. Yeah , I can pretty much guarantee the guys I run with would be handing out sh*t like that wholesale.

My question for you is, who do you think they'd be giving that sh*t to, you, or me?

2) You wrote:



"ONLY"? I don't think I implied that, and I certainly didn't SAY that. "Only"? I invite you to quote me and explain how you you got the word "only" out of what I wrote. I was explaining the physics as I understand them, but I certainly didn't suggest, imply, or write that was the only cause of the bubbles popping.

TW
(PS: Everybody's different, and no two people think exactly alike. So how about this - suppose you make an effort to not take my acerbic writing style so damned personal, and I'll make an effort to be more sensitive in my responses. Does that seem fair? Maybe we can actually discuss this kind of stuff AND get along at the same time...)

(PPS: I guess that was actually 3 points.)
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I want to make some nice hitting pool cues with some wood I have been hanging onto for years .
I would like to put a nice hard durable long lasting glass like clear coat on them.
I would like to understand what I am doing and why certain technics work.

So far this is my step by step plan.
I need a slow turning motor to turn the cue while its drying in a warm dust free room or space.

I need to make sure my 105 resin is warm before mixing.
I plan on mixing in a plastic zip lock baggie .
I will apply the epoxy with rubber gloves and smooth with my fingers and a poker card.
If there are bubbles then I will use either a torch or a hot air gun ?

Questions that I do have is the first coat I put on should I use the 105/207 epoxy or 5 minute epoxy.and if the answer is 5 min epoxy which brand should I buy.

2nd question is will the epoxy be wavy when its dried or not even surface.

3rd is how many coats do I put on.

Or should I scrape the whole idea and make a paint booth a shoot emron ?
 
mortuarymike-nv said:
I want to make some nice hitting pool cues with some wood I have been hanging onto for years .
I would like to put a nice hard durable long lasting glass like clear coat on them.
I would like to understand what I am doing and why certain technics work.

So far this is my step by step plan.
I need a slow turning motor to turn the cue while its drying in a warm dust free room or space.

I need to make sure my 105 resin is warm before mixing.
I plan on mixing in a plastic zip lock baggie .
I will apply the epoxy with rubber gloves and smooth with my fingers and a poker card.
If there are bubbles then I will use either a torch or a hot air gun ?

Questions that I do have is the first coat I put on should I use the 105/207 epoxy or 5 minute epoxy.and if the answer is 5 min epoxy which brand should I buy.

----> Never use a 5 minute epoxy as a seal coat. This is the base of your finish, the foundation. Use the 105/207 all the way thru the process. It dries slower allowing it to penetrate better into the cue, especially when using woods such as ebony and similar oilier woods.

2nd question is will the epoxy be wavy when its dried or not even surface.

----> If your epoxy is wavy, its WAY to thick. You will get much better results from thinner coats and 4-6 coats in total. Using a steel wool #oooo to lightly rub the gloss down and any raises in the finish before re applying.

3rd is how many coats do I put on.

----> I use 4-6 depending on how the wood is absorbing the coats. ( first few) that is.

Or should I scrape the whole idea and make a paint booth a shoot emron ?
Click to expand...

-----> I would not shoot emron , the dangers to your health heavily outway the worth. Epoxy is a great long lasting finish, it just takes time. I hope this helps some.
 
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Thomas, I do think you are getting awfully close to that fine line between being sarcastic and just being an arrogant jerk.

Lets tone it down a little.
 
mortuarymike-nv said:
I want to make some nice hitting pool cues with some wood I have been hanging onto for years .
I would like to put a nice hard durable long lasting glass like clear coat on them.
I would like to understand what I am doing and why certain technics work.

So far this is my step by step plan.
I need a slow turning motor to turn the cue while its drying in a warm dust free room or space.

I need to make sure my 105 resin is warm before mixing.
I plan on mixing in a plastic zip lock baggie .
I will apply the epoxy with rubber gloves and smooth with my fingers and a poker card.
If there are bubbles then I will use either a torch or a hot air gun ?

Questions that I do have is the first coat I put on should I use the 105/207 epoxy or 5 minute epoxy.and if the answer is 5 min epoxy which brand should I buy.

2nd question is will the epoxy be wavy when its dried or not even surface.

3rd is how many coats do I put on.

Or should I scrape the whole idea and make a paint booth a shoot emron ?
Click to expand...
There are a ton of GREAT auto clear coats out there for a lot less.
In the long run, epoxy coat will just frustrate you and waste a ton of time imo.
Trade work with a local auto finisher and learn spraying .
Luckily you're in Nevada. Not in Nazifornia.
Plenty of body shops there .
Or you could find spray booths on CL.
http://orangecounty.craigslist.org/tls/4925692235.html
 
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JoeyInCali said:
There are a ton of GREAT auto clear coats out there for a lot less.
In the long run, epoxy coat will just frustrate you and waste a ton of time imo.
Trade work with a local auto finisher and learn spraying .
Luckily you're in Nevada. Not in Nazifornia.
Plenty of body shops there .
Or you could find spray booths on CL.
http://orangecounty.craigslist.org/tls/4925692235.html
Click to expand...

I know a company that moved out of California because of their regulations.
 
mortuarymike-nv said:
What research I have done, the torch removes bubble because of the CO2 gases it creates.
http://www.ehow.com/how_5594524_prevent-gas-bubbles-epoxy-resin.html
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FWIW, I have never heard of using CO2 to de-gas epoxy. Nor has my material science colleague or my chemical engineering colleague on my team (and we are constantly developing any number of adhesive processes as our daily grind). Maybe we'll learn something today.

The standard ways to de-gas epoxy have all been mentioned in this thread:

1) Be mindful of viscosity and open time
2) Create a pressure differential (via any number of different methods), if possible

I can imagine why someone might think CO2 somehow helps, but not really directly. For example, maybe someone created a pressure differential by jetting a bottle of CO2 across the surface and attributed the success to the CO2. I'm not connecting any dots on why the CO2 would be working on incorporated air bubbles, which is normally introduced into the epoxy by mixing, since gas isn't created by the chemical reaction of epoxy resin.

Mixing in a vacuum bell jar is done in the adhesive industry. I'm not sure how feasible that could be for cue finishing.

Freddie <~~~ stuck on glue
 
Cornerman said:
FWIW, I have never heard of using CO2 to de-gas epoxy. Nor has my material science colleague or my chemical engineering colleague on my team (and we are constantly developing any number of adhesive processes as our daily grind). Maybe we'll learn something today.

The standard ways to de-gas epoxy have all been mentioned in this thread:

1) Be mindful of viscosity and open time
2) Create a pressure differential (via any number of different methods), if possible

I can imagine why someone might think CO2 somehow helps, but not really directly. For example, maybe someone created a pressure differential by jetting a bottle of CO2 across the surface and attributed the success to the CO2. I'm not connecting any dots on why the CO2 would be working on incorporated air bubbles, which is normally introduced into the epoxy by mixing, since gas isn't created by the chemical reaction of epoxy resin.

Mixing in a vacuum bell jar is done in the adhesive industry. I'm not sure how feasible that could be for cue finishing.

Freddie <~~~ stuck on glue
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I wonder if a poor mans bell jar could not be made from a small glass jar, a sealer ring, and a rigged up lid that could be connected to one of these :

http://www.amazon.ca/Mityvac-MITMV8...QYUA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1427129913&sr=8-1

I pull C02 from wine using one, but of course a carboy has a nicely necked top for a rubber stopper. I am not sure if a hand vacuum pump could generate enough of a vacuum but it might be worth a try :shrug:

Dave
 
DaveK said:
I wonder if a poor mans bell jar could not be made from a small glass jar, a sealer ring, and a rigged up lid that could be connected to one of these :

http://www.amazon.ca/Mityvac-MITMV8...QYUA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1427129913&sr=8-1

I pull C02 from wine using one, but of course a carboy has a nicely necked top for a rubber stopper. I am not sure if a hand vacuum pump could generate enough of a vacuum but it might be worth a try :shrug:

Dave
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Tried it, was great exercise for the hand, but didn't do squat for the epoxy. If you use a real vacuum pump...beware....use a bigger cup as it Will expand, foam and create a big mess in the bottle.
Dave
 
I have a vacuum chamber that I have used on occasion. It did not foam but I could see th e bubbles get larger and rise to the top and burst.

With a slow set like West or 1618, just letting it sit for 10 minutes seems to do the same thing.

But not all the bubbles come from the epoxy. Coarse and open grained woods will out gas a great deal of bubbles that sometimes cannot be controlled.


Heating the cue first seems to help that. As the wood cools the gas inside the wood will contract and draw the epoxy inside.


Kim
 


Many years ago a friend who did a lot of resin casting for his business came up with this approach:

1) Measure (by weight) each half into separate cups, each cup more than big enough to contain the final mix (he used large paper soda cups);

2) Vacuum both cups for 10 min to degas;

3) Slowly pour all of one half into the other, then all back into first cup, repeating until roughly mixed, leaving half of final mix in each cup;

4) Carefully stir each cup's mixture thoroughly, introducing as little air as possible;

5) Combine mixtures into one cup. Degas mixture slowly for another 10 minutes;

6) Finally (this is the big secret), suspend the full cup over the mold cavity and puncture the bottom of the cup with an awl, allowing the mixture to flow straight down for about 8 - 10 inches in a narrow stream.

He got incredible bubble-free castings for two main reasons. First, any bubbles left in the mix were at the top of the cup, while he drew from the bottom. Second, the long, narrow steam created a "stretching" force on the fluid, thereby effectively "squeezing" any remaining air out of the stream sideways.

Now, how we can apply that knowledge to our own use is open for discussion, but for his purposes it let him successfully cast some amazing things with very little effort.

TW

 
Thomas Wayne said:


Many years ago a friend who did a lot of resin casting for his business came up with this approach:

1) Measure (by weight) each half into separate cups, each cup more than big enough to contain the final mix (he used large paper soda cups);

2) Vacuum both cups for 10 min to degas;

3) Slowly pour all of one half into the other, then all back into first cup, repeating until roughly mixed, leaving half of final mix in each cup;

4) Carefully stir each cup's mixture thoroughly, introducing as little air as possible;

5) Combine mixtures into one cup. Degas mixture slowly for another 10 minutes;

6) Finally (this is the big secret), suspend the full cup over the mold cavity and puncture the bottom of the cup with an awl, allowing the mixture to flow straight down for about 8 - 10 inches in a narrow stream.

He got incredible bubble-free castings for two main reasons. First, any bubbles left in the mix were at the top of the cup, while he drew from the bottom. Second, the long, narrow steam created a "stretching" force on the fluid, thereby effectively "squeezing" any remaining air out of the stream sideways.

Now, how we can apply that knowledge to our own use is open for discussion, but for his purposes it let him successfully cast some amazing things with very little effort.

TW
Click to expand...

I know a cuemaker who used the casting system similar to what you described. He would use toilet roll tubes and stick his butt sleeve in it with some piece of jewelry or whatever he wanted in the casting and pour it in after mixing it in a vacuum system. I saw some of it with big turquoise nuggets and such that made drop dead gorgeous cues.
 
cueman said:
I know a cuemaker who used the casting system similar to what you described. He would use toilet roll tubes and stick his butt sleeve in it with some piece of jewelry or whatever he wanted in the casting and pour it in after mixing it in a vacuum system. I saw some of it with big turquoise nuggets and such that made drop dead gorgeous cues.
Click to expand...

"Toilet roll tubes"... "stick"... "his butt"...

There's a joke in there somewhere, but I can't quite put my finger on it.

TW

 
Thomas Wayne said:


Many years ago a friend who did a lot of resin casting for his business came up with this approach:

1) Measure (by weight) each half into separate cups, each cup more than big enough to contain the final mix (he used large paper soda cups);

2) Vacuum both cups for 10 min to degas;

3) Slowly pour all of one half into the other, then all back into first cup, repeating until roughly mixed, leaving half of final mix in each cup;

4) Carefully stir each cup's mixture thoroughly, introducing as little air as possible;

5) Combine mixtures into one cup. Degas mixture slowly for another 10 minutes;

6) Finally (this is the big secret), suspend the full cup over the mold cavity and puncture the bottom of the cup with an awl, allowing the mixture to flow straight down for about 8 - 10 inches in a narrow stream.

He got incredible bubble-free castings for two main reasons. First, any bubbles left in the mix were at the top of the cup, while he drew from the bottom. Second, the long, narrow steam created a "stretching" force on the fluid, thereby effectively "squeezing" any remaining air out of the stream sideways.

Now, how we can apply that knowledge to our own use is open for discussion, but for his purposes it let him successfully cast some amazing things with very little effort.

TW
Click to expand...
This is gold.
 
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