What is Your Game's Ideal Angle?

[itsfroze]

Originally posted by, Pidge: Yesterday, 12:44 PM

Your Favorite Angle -
A friend pointed out I tend to leave my self a similar angle on a lot of shots. We played a couple of racks of 9 ball and I ran out each time on him leaving every ball around a half ball hit, slightly thinner. Over the next few games I took notice and I did, nearly every shot I left was around a 30 degree cut. This got me thinking, which is usually a bad thing in my case.

Why do I do it? A few reasons really. First is that I don't really run much risk of getting the wrong side of a ball if I pick a route to the next ball traveling along the half ball hit line into the OB, I can be out by a fair distance in judgment and not get the wrong side or get too thin on the correct side. Second is its very easy to aim a 30 degree cut, and use the half ball hit as a reference point so a hit thicker or thinner is going to X. Next is I can get almost anywhere on the table by leaving a half ball pot. Not much speed is normally needed to go around the table and its not too thin of a cut that I can't hold for some shots....some shots I physically can't hold for so I need to leave a thicker pot obviously. I think I've played so much I just don't realize I'm doing it when planning a run out. I'll pick a spot for the CB on each ball and oddly enough it tends to be slightly thinner than a half ball cut.

Does anyone else if the layout permits try leaving an angle of some sort on most balls?
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Good thread none the less.

 

[CJ Wiley]

FREE VIDEO - FINDING YOUR FAVORITE ANGLE - click this link

Yes, Bill, this is sound advice and for many people a great "rule of thumb".

Here's a video I did a few years ago demonstrating and complimenting what you're suggesting. Simplicity in many cases does lead to consistency. 'The Game is the Teacher'

FREE VIDEO - FINDING YOUR FAVORITE ANGLE - click this link

I think an approach angle of about 30 degrees offers the best percentage of making the ball and consistent speed on the cue ball.

Pair that with straight in with small angles and you have what you need.

Simple is the way to go.

Bill S.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

I always thought pros played position to take the most natural path possilbe, i.e. using the least amount of english.

"least amount of english"? I don't think so. This is a myth. Pros use LOTS of english...in many cases shots play far easier when you use a pile of english. Aside from my own observation and discussions with various pros, I have taken lessons with Earl Strickland. He uses a LOT of english on *most* shots. This is why he is able to achieve the right angles all the time...he is almost always playing down the line of the shot.

I think that instructors who advocate avoiding english if at all possible will create a player who plays consistently. And consistently remains an average player. The reason pros are pros is because they can consistently pocket the ball with all the english they need repeatably, because of practicing it a million times.

imho, of course.

KMRUNOUT

 

[CJ Wiley]

Keith McCready and I both relied on this shot quite a bit to stun the cue-ball

Yes, Mark, that makes all the difference and I agree. Pool is like golf where there's "full shots," and there's also a lot of "punch and chip" shots as well. Being able to use a touch of inside and "stun/kill" the cue-ball is a very powerful weapon.

Keith McCready and I both relied on this shot quite a bit, and although our styles differ you will notice many similarities using the "Inside" of the cue-ball. 'Our Game is the Teacher' click picture

Sorry, just read back what I wrote. Should have read 'sliding' cue ball (stun/ stop shot) not rolling. This is obviously very different. Sorry, my bad- hopefully what I wrote makes more sense now!

Mark

Sent from my C1505 using Tapatalk

 

[KMRUNOUT]

My favorite angle is perhaps a bit less than 30 degrees. Maybe 20? I like to stun the ball, punch to the rail, and come out for position.

Most importantly, my "ideal" angle will vary depending on table conditions. On a slippery fast table with fresh cloth, I will play for a fuller hit so that I can *stroke* the ball. This keeps me from being afraid of the table speed. Somehow it also seems to program my brain for the right speed when I have a thinner hit. On a slow old cloth, I may want a bit more angle, but not too much. I definitely don't want to be rolling the ball around on a crappy table. I think its even more important to use a firm stroke on junky old tables.

I have found that with my stroke, I don't usually have to go more than a tip outside center to get the english I need. On rare occasion I might load up the ball with spin...maybe for some kicks, or to squeeze between the side rail and a ball to get down table or something. But I see the english as "assisting" the angle I make to the rail. If I hit the rail straight and need to change that angle, I'll use more english. If I come into the rail with an angle, I don't need so much. Also, how close the object ball is to the rail plays a big part in how much english and draw/follow to use and balance. There's one shot we all face...the object ball is about 1 diamond up on the side rail from the corner pocket. Our next ball is at the other end of the table in the middle of the end rail. We have a relatively thin angle. I find I have great success with this shot hitting it slightly softer than you might think, with very slight draw, but with *ridiculous* outside english. Using that technique, I can get past the side pocket in most cases with surprisingly soft speed. Of course if the 3 rail inside path was available I'd do that.

Anyway short answer: 20-30 degrees most times, slightly fuller hits on very fast tables.

KMRUNOUT

 

[CJ Wiley]

..Earl Strickland talks in terms of "throwing" his object ball in with spin..

Using "english" increases your margin of error when used to create zones. This can be postion zones, or pocket zones.....Earl Strickland talks in terms of "throwing" his object ball in with spin.....I, on the other hand do it with defection, and limit my spin/english.

Earl and I can get this "throwing" effect either way, it also depends on the cloth and atmosphere which way we lean towards. I believe it's prudent to stick to one way as your foundation and create your other shots using this one as a reference.

Some people confuse using extreme english on some shots for position, with twirling the cueball all over the table every other shot.
Sure the pros can do it when needed , but they don't get that bad on balls most of the time like us weekend players
Mainly because their speed is right.
When you play infrequently , the first thing to go seems to be your cueball speed.

 

[Cardigan Kid]

Using "english" increases your margin of error when used to create zones. This can be postion zones, or pocket zones.....Earl Strickland talks in terms of "throwing" his object ball in with spin.....I, on the other hand do it with defection, and limit my spin/english.

Earl and I can get this "throwing" effect either way, it also depends on the cloth and atmosphere which way we lean towards. I believe it's prudent to stick to one way as your foundation and create your other shots using this one as a reference.

CJ, is the objective to get to a point where you have a common core of shots, or shot selection that is based on TOI, and when the special opportunity arises, you would defer to the other shots, outside spin, etc when the use of the three part pocket and TOI just won't get you shape?

I liked your example of business and how to have a few and do them well is better than having many and occupying your mind took much.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Remember, the beginner will see many options, the expert will see one

When training to raise your level of play using TOI it's essential to blend your shot speed, shot angles and cue ball target as much as possible. This basically creates the same shot, no matter what the angle, although the subject of this thread is controlling that angle too. When you seek to develop your game in this way, by building a strong, consistent foundation it puts you way ahead of the average completion.

Remember, the beginner will see many options, the expert will see one....or sometimes two. A true master will have a strong referential index - they will stick to and conform {to} what they're doing to accommodate their preference, not vice versa. In music you could refer to this as "one theme" and variations on that "one theme".

Whenever possible I will use the TOI, with an accelerated stroke and create the angle to the inside of the pocket.....I can do this with at least 90% of my shots if I'm constantly creating the 10/30 Degree (approximately) shot angles.

CJ, is the objective to get to a point where you have a common core of shots, or shot selection that is based on TOI, and when the special opportunity arises, you would defer to the other shots, outside spin, etc when the use of the three part pocket and TOI just won't get you shape?

I liked your example of business and how to have a few and do them well is better than having many and occupying your mind took much.

 

[Lucky_Lew66]

well obviously different games require different pattern play and cueball control, rotation games require a lot of power shots and probably more English then say eightball. Eightball is more about planning way ahead ,the whole rack really and playing good patterns and bumping balls and kissing balls off others into the pocket. One pocket is about super speed control and knowing the little moves to block your opponents banking lanes and playing everything pocket speed,and banking good obviously, I think that any good player uses the natural angles as much as possible,so he doesnt have to use much english,because the more english you use the more chance there is of throwing a ball off by forgetting to allow for throw or all the other variables. Obviously the farther you plan ahead the better you play the rack,and know the exact speed and angles you need. I think you need about a 20 to 30 degree angle to get just about anywhere on the table,and if you see good players using english its just to exaggerate their shape just a little,to miss the other balls or to get that perfect angle for the next shot,or a breakout. Obviously it all depends on the way the rack breaks up and wether the balls flow easily from one to the next,or wether its a rack to play an early safe on and wait for a better layout. Some players,usually ametures will try and be aggressive and run out a rack when its a tough out and should be played safe, and end up suiciding the rack. Its all about percentages of the shots there,the good players realizes when he sees a table thats tough,his runout percentage is not good and pulls up and plays safe. Some angulation is personal preference,some like an angle into the rail to go around the table and some like that natural angle going away from the rail to go around the table, proficiency in both is needed for sure.

 

[CJ Wiley]

I actually believe 8-Ball requires more english than rotation games

If your game "depends" on all these "obvious" factors it's not a good sign....it's actually an indication that you are at the mercy of the table, the layout and ultimately your opponent.

I actually believe 8 Ball requires more english than rotation games. In rotation games the object ball is the emphasis, and in 8 Ball it's the cue ball. You have to be very careful towards the end of an 8-Ball rack or you could get in a brutal situation.....usually requiring severe engish and/or speed to come out successful.

Food for though - my game is the teacher

well obviously different games require different pattern play and cue ball control, rotation games require a lot of power shots and probably more English then say eightball.

Eightball is more about planning way ahead ,the whole rack really and playing good patterns and bumping balls and kissing balls off others into the pocket. One pocket is about super speed control and knowing the little moves to block your opponents banking lanes and playing everything pocket speed,and banking good obviously,

I think that any good player uses the natural angles as much as possible,so he doesn't have to use much english,because the more english you use the more chance there is of throwing a ball off by forgetting to allow for throw or all the other variables. (you can do this consistently by favoring a certain type shot, I suggest the TOI as a foundation)

Obviously the farther you plan ahead the better you play the rack,and know the exact speed and angles you need. (not necessarily) I think you need about a 20 to 30 degree angle to get just about anywhere on the table,and if you see good players using english its just to exaggerate their shape just a little,to miss the other balls or to get that perfect angle for the next shot,or a breakout.

Obviously it all depends on the way the rack breaks up and whether the balls flow easily from one to the next,or whether its a rack to play an early safe on and wait for a better layout. Some players,usually amateurs will try and be aggressive and run out a rack when its a tough out and should be played safe, and end up suiciding the rack.
(very few players know 8 Ball strategy well enough to play safe without getting into an even worse table situation)
Its all about percentages of the shots there,the good players realizes when he sees a table thats tough,his runout percentage is not good and pulls up and plays safe. Some angulation is personal preference,some like an angle into the rail to go around the table and some like that natural angle going away from the rail to go around the table, proficiency in both is needed for sure.(I agree in principle)

 

[CJ Wiley]

Why do we have to overcome out natural tendencies to reach the next level?

For many pool players it's a natural tendency to want to spin shots in with outside "helping" English. This technique is very useful, especially if you're trying to change the natural angle of the cue ball after contact. There's another way to do this if you want to "master a shot" so you can hit the three parts of the pocket. To do this you must become more accurate and develop a "FEEL" for the pocket. This isn't any more difficult, it just requires you to simplify your Game and reduce calculations.

There are three {main} calculations you make to be accurate using "outside English," 1st) - you must judge the immediate deflection and 2nd) - you must judge how much the spin brings the cue ball "back" to it's original "shot line". 3rd) - you must decide where to hit the cue ball to accomplish the intended shot. (these calculations are related, but not necessarily connected like they are with the TOI Technique)

You will find it's necessary to hit these shots at a variety of speeds and a variety of spins to do what you need with the cue ball. This takes a LOT of different calculations because speed effects deflection AND spin. Where you hit the cue ball and how far over to get your "outside English" also effects deflection AND spin.

Over the course of hours, you will have to make numerous calculations and instinctive judgments to make every shot as planned. With the 'Touch Of Inside' system of play I am showing you how to reduce the amount of calculations and instinctive judgments considerably.

The TOI Technique shows you how to hit one "theme" of speeds, one "theme" of spins, and one "theme" of deflection. I have played many players in my life and the only concern I had was if they would play long enough. Because, even though this edge against other accomplished players may be only 1-2%, it will show up over time.

If you're cutting a ball at a "half ball" angle down the rail to the left and using "outside" (right English") you cue ball is immediately going to deflect into the object ball slightly. To overcome undercutting it you will need to spin the cue ball to make it curve back and the spin will help cut it in. This may "FEEL" like it's helping the cut, but IS IT REALLY?

You are having to hit the speed correctly, the spin correctly, the contact point (shot line) correctly and hit the cue ball precisely to do this. I'm sure you do this very well, but how about under pressure? How do you make all these calculations playing a champion player? This is where your unconscious will start to falter and break down.

You are simply over whelming yourself with these calculations and when you add pressure? I don't know, how does it effect you, do you play better or worse? How about over the course of a 5-10 hour set, do you rely on your game to get better and better or do you have "ups and downs?" With the TOI Technique I teach players how to use (as much as possible, of course there's exceptions, and less that you may think) ONE SPEED - ONE SHOT ANGLE REFERENCE (center or edge) - ONE TIP TARGET (the "Touch" of Inside).

The one thing you guard against {using TOI} is overcutting the ball, however, if you're going to miss a shot would you rather over cut it or under cut it? I don't know about you, but when I under cut a shot I feel like a "dogged it," however, when I over cut a shot I feel like I know what I need to do to correct what I did wrong.

TOI increases consistency, which strengthens confidence and makes your Game strong, reliable, and very intimidating. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[Dunnn51]

There's many ways to create angles in the Game of Pocket Billiards - playing position is something that no two players will do exactly the same. It is commonly understood Pros play position to give themselves the easiest shot on their next ball - is this true?

This may be correct at times, although it does have it's disadvantages, especially if you're playing a player that makes you "come" with a great shot many times during the match. Sometimes it's better to "stay ready" for the tougher shots and to do this you may need to find a way to hit every shot at a more consistent speed by creating a consistent angle.

This "position angle" must give the player an ability to hit each shot approximately the same speed and you'll also want to hit the cue-ball in the same general location.

What is your ideal angle, should it simply be chosen out of favoritism?

CJ !!!!!!
I got your DVD's you sent , and had the chance to (briefly) review them. I figured at 1/2 price I could not go wrong.
I think we "chatted," in here before that I use something similar to what my perception of TOI was/is. I was right, (and then some!)
TOI has some distinct advantages,( I won't elaborate, unless you push me to do it):wink:

ok, to the question :
I never really thought about it much , but since I play mostly rotation games, I'll say the best angle is 10-25 degrees on the positive side . Most shots in rotation games are long-table, or cross-table w/ CB against the rail. (If you are lucky). In this situation, 10- 25 gives me a good chance to move white along with a great variety of English to choose for position on the next shot. It also allows me to concentreate on CB speed better as I'm getting the same angle time & time again.

 

[CJ Wiley]

create the same type angle over and over, and over.......

I have a feeling those DVDs will lead you to some new insights and if you utilize the TOI training video you will see dramatic results within 3 weeks.

Those angles you mention are great ones to rely on....the main thing is to create the same type angle over and over, and over.......and pretty soon you feel like you're hitting the same type shot.....for you to reach this level your perception needs to change and after watching the TOI video a few times (many say 5 is the magic number) you will notice the difference immediately.......and then..... 'The Game will be your Teacher'

CJ !!!!!!
I got your DVD's you sent , and had the chance to (briefly) review them. I figured at 1/2 price I could not go wrong.
I think we "chatted," in here before that I use something similar to what my perception of TOI was/is. I was right, (and then some!)
TOI has some distinct advantages,( I won't elaborate, unless you push me to do it):wink:

ok, to the question :
I never really thought about it much , but since I play mostly rotation games, I'll say the best angle is 10-25 degrees on the positive side . Most shots in rotation games are long-table, or cross-table w/ CB against the rail. (If you are lucky). In this situation, 10- 25 gives me a good chance to move white along with a great variety of English to choose for position on the next shot. It also allows me to concentreate on CB speed better as I'm getting the same angle time & time again.