What level am I?

Here is a whole web page about ratings:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/ratings.html

A-B-C-D mean different things to different people. APA 2-7 (or 9) means different things in different areas. A single race to 11 tells you only a little about how you rate against your opponent.

For the APA 4s around here, break-and-runs are very rare, but you don't say what system you are talking about when you say "4".

So, until you have played for six months or so in a system, it's really hard to say how you rank within that system, especially if your game is changing rapidly.

from the link provided above
i think this is a great rating scale
from phil capelle
Here's an alternative and more-detailed interpretation of the A-D scale from Capelle's "Play Your Best Pool" (p.386):

D: A beginner or someone who plays so infrequently that their game remains in the beginner category.

C-: A below average player - this denotes a player with some recognizable skills who has definitely risen from the ranks of beginners. This is the first major milestone.

C: An average player - describes a large section of pool enthusiasts with experience whose games perhaps have leveled off, or that only play occasionally.

C+: Above average player - this group plays a very acceptable game of pool. They tend to dominate their level of competition.

B-: This is perhaps the biggest hurdle, as a good number of players peak at the C+ level. A B- is a good player who is quite capable of running a rack of Eight Ball or Nine Ball. However, they usually lack consistency.

B: A solid, advanced player - these players can run out fairly regularly, but lack a little consistency.

B+: Players at this level are often mistaken for lower level A players when they are playing well because they play a very tough, well-rounded game. They can run out from nearly anywhere at anytime.

A-: Another big jump is required to break through to the "A" level. This group of players could be classified as semi-pros or top amateurs. They are very skilled in nearly all facets of the game. They run out easily and very often.

A: A professional quality player who can compete with and occasionally beat all but the best players. Very skilled, solid, and consistent. Runs multiple racks quite often. Tough to beat.

A+: Touring Pro - the best. Skilled in every area of the game. Breaks and runs out multiple racks regularly. Definitely in a class by themselves.
 
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I know you've been around for a while... You really think if you took 100 league players, and 100 pool hall regulars, the league players would have a chance in hell? I've played in 5 or 6 leagues over the years, and the vast majority of people I have seen on the leagues were D players by pool hall gambling ratings. The pool hall "regulars" just don't like leagues for whatever reason, so those higher skilled players don't participate as much in the leagues.

Of course, there is always an exception, and sometimes a top pool hall player that is A speed will join a league.

Btw, I define A speed at an absolute minimum of a player who can consistently beat the 9 ball ghost on standard 9' tables.

Usually the top speed of the league, like an APA 8 or thereabouts, is a B player.

This has been my experience. Yours may vary:)

Spot on, this is truth whatever some hear choose to believe. I know some here play league and naturally somewhat bias, and some that wont except where the majority of pool league players are based on skill level.
 
I know you've been around for a while... You really think if you took 100 league players, and 100 pool hall regulars, the league players would have a chance in hell? I've played in 5 or 6 leagues over the years, and the vast majority of people I have seen on the leagues were D players by pool hall gambling ratings. The pool hall "regulars" just don't like leagues for whatever reason, so those higher skilled players don't participate as much in the leagues.



Of course, there is always an exception, and sometimes a top pool hall player that is A speed will join a league.



Btw, I define A speed at an absolute minimum of a player who can consistently beat the 9 ball ghost on standard 9' tables.



Usually the top speed of the league, like an APA 8 or thereabouts, is a B player.



This has been my experience. Yours may vary:)



I am a Fargo Rate 530, a fair race for Shane and I is I get 11 on the wire in a race to 13. the league we play in in Fargo ALL the top players play.

I am not a top 50 in our league. The best, Rory Hendrickson is a 700+ and has gambled with many top players through the years. It isn't just Fargo, the whole state follows the same pattern.

FYI, A fair match between Rory and myself is 8 on the wire in a race to 11

As you can see I define speed on how I compare to other players



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I was only asking to get an idea of whom I'd be playing. Don't want to let a team down. Now I sort of know what to expect from a 4... So in 8 ball if I'm playing a 7 I'm pretty much going for the run nearly every time ( I'm assuming those guys can jump and kick ). If I'm playing a 2 I'll prob keep my soldiers on the table and take care of my problem balls to get ready for a run... I'm not one of those guys who believes in playing the table. I think knowing your opponnent's weaknesses/strengths helps.
 
I was only asking to get an idea of whom I'd be playing. Don't want to let a team down. Now I sort of know what to expect from a 4... So in 8 ball if I'm playing a 7 I'm pretty much going for the run nearly every time ( I'm assuming those guys can jump and kick ). If I'm playing a 2 I'll prob keep my soldiers on the table and take care of my problem balls to get ready for a run... I'm not one of those guys who believes in playing the table. I think knowing your opponnent's weaknesses/strengths helps.



As a friend once told me, "you have to be brutally honest in regards to your playing ability"


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I have a player on my team that is easily an A player but is a league player. When I say A player I am comparing him to the Pro and close to Pro level players at my pool hall (Mike Dechaine, Tom D'Alfonso, Joey Dupuis, Nelson Oliveira). He is a 9 in the APA with an 83% lifetime win % and my ticket to Vegas :)
 
I have a player on my team that is easily an A player but is a league player. When I say A player I am comparing him to the Pro and close to Pro level players at my pool hall (Mike Dechaine, Tom D'Alfonso, Joey Dupuis, Nelson Oliveira). He is a 9 in the APA with an 83% lifetime win % and my ticket to Vegas :)

I had one of those that n my team a few years ago...actually 2-9's but one was on a whole different level than other 9's in our area.

And yes he got us fo Vegas also...sadly he could not go due fo personal issues arising she it was time to go.

He once had a s/l 6 down 60-1 in cities before the 6 threw his cue down and said fbck it and quit.

Quite a few people said he was too good to play apa. A room owner once offered fo sponsor him on open tournaments bit he declined..hw just wanted to play pool when he wanted to and did not want to feel obligated to play for anyone and I understood that completely..

I let him pick the weeks he wanted fo play and who he wanted to play and I worked out great for both of us
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Been trying to get him back but he hardly ever plays anymore. He works and spends all his cree time with his young child he is raising by himself. I not only admire his playing but his commitment to his child . It's hard to raise a kid by yourself.
 
Can you run a 100 balls in straight pool? anything less is a D player...j/k....play in an open tournament like turning stone and see how you do
 
Can you run a 100 balls in straight pool? anything less is a D player...j/k....play in an open tournament like turning stone and see how you do

If he has to ask what level he is then he would be in over his head at Turning Stone.
 
yeah....I figured it would give him some perspective...I gave up on trying to figure out my speed...just entered open tourneys and paid my dues...the rest will come
 
So in 8 ball if I'm playing a 7 I'm pretty much going for the run nearly every time ( I'm assuming those guys can jump and kick ). If I'm playing a 2 I'll prob keep my soldiers on the table and take care of my problem balls to get ready for a run... I'm not one of those guys who believes in playing the table. I think knowing your opponnent's weaknesses/strengths helps.

I would view this completely the opposite. If you can't run it, don't give the 7 a open ltable to play in as chances are you are not coming back. Leave your kids in the street and your problems their problems and let them work to beat you or free you up trying. If they can get all the breaks outs and beat you then fine but it is your fault if you leave them a wide open table because of your failed ego run and they beat you.

2's I don't fear if they have 3 or 4 balls left even if they are close to pockets. I will try to run it out and only leave what I have to to avoid getting stuck if I cant.
 
If you don't know the answer, there is no way you are a B. Probably a C- or a D. League players in general are much lower skill levels than people who gamble day in and day out in pool halls. The A B C D is mostly for the pool hall gambler ratings.

Hahahaha the hatred for a league players never ends..and neither will the ridiculous statements. The pressure of competition makes you better whether it's tournaments , leagues or gambling.
 
I was only asking to get an idea of whom I'd be playing. Don't want to let a team down. Now I sort of know what to expect from a 4... So in 8 ball if I'm playing a 7 I'm pretty much going for the run nearly every time ( I'm assuming those guys can jump and kick ). If I'm playing a 2 I'll prob keep my soldiers on the table and take care of my problem balls to get ready for a run... I'm not one of those guys who believes in playing the table. I think knowing your opponnent's weaknesses/strengths helps.

APA is a strange animal with winner break format and ANY SLOP GOES, so you can be the best in the league and lose to a novice on a single mistake, because of the handicap system. That is, if you're a 6 facing a 3, you have to win 6, they have to win 2 to win the match. Your W/L percentage is not based on games won, but matches, you can run out 90% of your racks and have a losing record if your captain puts you up against low-ranked players and they squeak out two racks somehow.

Mind you, also you'll likely be playing on bar boxes often enough, and no guarantee that they're in good shape. 2s, 3s, and some 4s can be bad enough players that dog shots that smash up the pattern you were hoping for, it's not uncommon to have a low-rank APA player repeatedly screw you over on a small little slow table with horrible rails.

2s are so bad they probably shouldn't play pool at all. They're probably 50/50 on any shot over 3 feet and have almost no concept of position. It takes a *lot* of losses to drop down to a 2.

A lot of new players end up as 3s for a few seasons. Ball bangers and below usually, or very susceptible to nervous jitters. Will dog shots, usually cannot go more than one rail for position if they even think of position.

By default they start you at a 4... Most 4s are weak pattern players, expect 4-5 ball runs at the very most from them before they lose position and hook themselves. They also will about 5% of the time miss hangers.

5s are wildcards they can be aggressive shooters who get lucky on small tables, or they can be really good strategists who just don't have a dependable stroke and consistent speed control yet. At that level you actually see some semblance of competent safety play, but they usually aren't skilled enough to make their safety without giving you one to play back at them. They break and run less than 10% of the time, and have a hard time breaking up problem clusters without risking hooking themselves some other way. If they're smart at all, they'll play a safety at you to try to get you to foul so they can solve their clusters with ball in hand.

6s also can include a wide range of play styles, some are really good strokers who just haven't broken through the mental level to be a serious contender, others have some experience but try too hard to show how much they can spin the ball and screw themselves over here and there. Others are old-timers who never really worked on the game before they got set in their ways who have just peaked. Break and run maybe 15-20% of the time.

7+ Anything 7 or over who is still playing APA is your local dive bar hero who could probably make an amateur tournament worth his time except he probably doesn't practice enough or doesn't have the personality to handle losing. Most importantly if you're a 6-7, you had better handle boredom and/or drinking very well, because you'll usually play at the very end of the night after sitting around for 4-5 hours watching players hack away at balls, and you'll probably have to throw several drinks back to handle all of that. Note also that as 7 or above you will likely be the best on your team by far so having a practice buddy is not usually in the cards, because of the skill cap (you can only put up a limited number of high-rank players in APA on any one night)

Basically against a 2 or a 3 you try the runout every time, you shouldn't count on them reliably hitting back-cuts, most combos, or cutting balls down a rail. Against 5 or 6 you can probably start clearing the rack and trust they won't be able to get out of a well-played safety if you're unable to solve your problem balls for the runout. Against a 7, if you don't think you stand a good chance of solving your problem cluster, play the safety while you still have a lot of soldiers on the table because the winner break format and the fact you're probably playing a race to 5 could punish you if you leave them an opening, although with any luck they'll have been drinking enough by then that they won't string multiple racks together.
 
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Quick question:

I've tried to stay away from leagues but finally looking to enter a lot of tourneys to get better.. I always thought I was a C player. Got to play someone who's been around a long time. After one game I said I was a C he laughed and said no you're a B and he's B+. Then we raced to 11 and even though he broke and ran out twice I still won 11-8. Which means I'm at least a B. Just got off the phone w a league guy I said I was a B player he said I'll start you out as a 4. He said he's a 7 and he's looking for a 2 for his team. So confused. What's a 4? Can't find anything online. Can someone explain. Basically if we're playing 8 ball on a barbox it's very rare for me to break and run out but if you break and run to the key ball and miss you probably won't get back to the table. Or if you miss two shots in one game you'll prob lose. In rotation games on a 9' if I get to the 7 there's a chance I won't run out. Am I a 4? Also worth mentioning I played a famous player a few times ( he's prob top 50 in the world, he played in Mosconi cup.. ) the difference in levels was insane. Like night and day. Not even remotely close. So does 4 sound right? Curious what to expect playing other 4s.

There is yet to be a rating system for non pros that is as accurate as a PGA golf course rating system. Takes years to develop and someone has to set the rules, enforce the rules, keep score and get paid to keep score. No one YET in the pool world would pay anyone to do that unless they were in it for the long haul, and Who Would That Be ? My guess is as good as yours.
 
There is yet to be a rating system for non pros that is as accurate as a PGA golf course rating system. Takes years to develop and someone has to set the rules, enforce the rules, keep score and get paid to keep score. No one YET in the pool world would pay anyone to do that unless they were in it for the long haul, and Who Would That Be ? My guess the shadow knows.



Fargo Rate


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I was only asking to get an idea of whom I'd be playing. Don't want to let a team down. Now I sort of know what to expect from a 4... So in 8 ball if I'm playing a 7 I'm pretty much going for the run nearly every time ( I'm assuming those guys can jump and kick ). If I'm playing a 2 I'll prob keep my soldiers on the table and take care of my problem balls to get ready for a run... I'm not one of those guys who believes in playing the table. I think knowing your opponnent's weaknesses/strengths helps.

Two of the best pieces of advice I ever received were

1 play the table..not your opponent

2. If you can't run out...play safe

Since you stated you are not a pls the table kind of guy I guess those 2 pieces of advice are of no use to you.

Since you had rather your style of play depend on your opponents level I would like to give you this advice.

Your thought process is wrong in my experience playing apa.

Playing lower level opponents you can afford to attempt run outs because if you mess up they more than likely will not run out on you

When you play higher level players you have to play more conservative when you can't run out. One of 2 things is gonna happen when you fail to run out on a higher level player.

1. If he has problem balls he is gonna safety the shit outa you

2 if the table is pretty open he is gonna run out on you.

Either way ...your failed run out made it easier for him to beat you.

Lower level players can not run out and safties never cross their mind and probably could not execute one any way.
 
APA is a strange animal with winner break format and ANY SLOP GOES, so you can be the best in the league and lose to a novice on a single mistake, because of the handicap system. That is, if you're a 6 facing a 3, you have to win 6, they have to win 2 to win the match. Your W/L percentage is not based on games won, but matches, you can run out 90% of your racks and have a losing record if your captain puts you up against low-ranked players and they squeak out two racks somehow.

Mind you, also you'll likely be playing on bar boxes often enough, and no guarantee that they're in good shape. 2s, 3s, and some 4s can be bad enough players that dog shots that smash up the pattern you were hoping for, it's not uncommon to have a low-rank APA player repeatedly screw you over on a small little slow table with horrible rails.

2s are so bad they probably shouldn't play pool at all. They're probably 50/50 on any shot over 3 feet and have almost no concept of position. It takes a *lot* of losses to drop down to a 2.

A lot of new players end up as 3s for a few seasons. Ball bangers and below usually, or very susceptible to nervous jitters. Will dog shots, usually cannot go more than one rail for position if they even think of position.

By default they start you at a 4... Most 4s are weak pattern players, expect 4-5 ball runs at the very most from them before they lose position and hook themselves. They also will about 5% of the time miss hangers.

5s are wildcards they can be aggressive shooters who get lucky on small tables, or they can be really good strategists who just don't have a dependable stroke and consistent speed control yet. At that level you actually see some semblance of competent safety play, but they usually aren't skilled enough to make their safety without giving you one to play back at them. They break and run less than 10% of the time, and have a hard time breaking up problem clusters without risking hooking themselves some other way. If they're smart at all, they'll play a safety at you to try to get you to foul so they can solve their clusters with ball in hand.

6s also can include a wide range of play styles, some are really good strokers who just haven't broken through the mental level to be a serious contender, others have some experience but try too hard to show how much they can spin the ball and screw themselves over here and there. Others are old-timers who never really worked on the game before they got set in their ways who have just peaked. Break and run maybe 15-20% of the time.

7+ Anything 7 or over who is still playing APA is your local dive bar hero who could probably make an amateur tournament worth his time except he probably doesn't practice enough or doesn't have the personality to handle losing. Most importantly if you're a 6-7, you had better handle boredom and/or drinking very well, because you'll usually play at the very end of the night after sitting around for 4-5 hours watching players hack away at balls, and you'll probably have to throw several drinks back to handle all of that. Note also that as 7 or above you will likely be the best on your team by far so having a practice buddy is not usually in the cards, because of the skill cap (you can only put up a limited number of high-rank players in APA on any one night)

Basically against a 2 or a 3 you try the runout every time, you shouldn't count on them reliably hitting back-cuts, most combos, or cutting balls down a rail. Against 5 or 6 you can probably start clearing the rack and trust they won't be able to get out of a well-played safety if you're unable to solve your problem balls for the runout. Against a 7, if you don't think you stand a good chance of solving your problem cluster, play the safety while you still have a lot of soldiers on the table because the winner break format and the fact you're probably playing a race to 5 could punish you if you leave them an opening, although with any luck they'll have been drinking enough by then that they won't string multiple racks together.

6v3 is a 5-2 race not 6-2.

You can never lose a match because of 1 mistake as it requires 2 games to win minimum.

Win % is based on matches, not games but the last time I checked no money or trophy was given out because of your win % so I am not sure why that matters. Ego stroke maybe?

Slop has always been and probably will always be a part of pool, even at the pro level and rarely does it benefit one more than the other in any significant way. Review the history of pool, even in the modern era.

Your over generalizations of tables and quality of players is entertaining at best. Typical of a 9' BCA elitist (Not that you are one).

I think the only typical APA bashing things you didn't cover were sandbagging, score keeping and lack of LO payouts, but maybe those are in a follow up piece.
 
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That's what I'm hoping for the long haul.

Only other system I heard that ever did work, was the one Gene Story had created out west.
That would be Gene Stary who founded the USPPA along with the math guy who developed the system. The problem with those ratings is that there was a score sheet that counted misses and safeties. The room where I played had a table with around 4-inch pockets that no one, except maybe Varner, could run out on. People who played in that room were rated maybe 20% below the "correct" ratings. That gave us a big advantage in the regional tournaments. Also, there were reports of rooms that just padded innings, either during or after the matches.

With all its faults, the USPPA had many successful tournaments both locally and in Reno. It ended sadly: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=213553
 
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