What makes a good cue maker a GREAT cue maker?

TomHay

TomHay

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You can tell from Pics of my past and present work I do not fall under either, I love making them but lack the ummmphh. It's not my age, you have it or you don't.

I have seen many fantastic cues shown on AZ and yes I think there are great Cue Makers on here that post. I will not name one as to forget one would be worse.

I had a chance today to spend it in a great cue makers shop, B.S and watch.

I don't think this is a big trade secret so I will give a little of what I saw as great rather than good.

The cue maker was getting ready to do some cuts with his spindle which is like a pros router. He inserted a winged cutting blade. After inserting the winged cutting blade he set up his dial indicator and proceeded to measure and tap until all the wing blades were equal. This is not a one minute job.

To me its those steps that set people aside from the rest. Maybe you already take these steps, I don't know.

What sets aside a good to great cue maker to you?
 
It seems that to some extent you answered your own question. The devil is in the details...

It would be interesting to see some perspectives on this matter though...


.
 
Attention to detail is usually what separates the top from the masses and that is in a lot of trades and repair people.
Checking things in stead of relying on the tooth fairy also pays dividends in producing any quality product.
Neil
 
Some random thoughts

Accuracy and attention to detail are essential but there's much more to it than that.
Imagination and vision are also essential qualities. Following the crowd will only take you so far.
The crowd only goes where they go by consensus anyway. You need vision to see beyond that.
I've come to believe that the Uni-Radial pin is a pretty decent pin.
But do you think that everyone who's using it is doing so because they know WHY it's a good pin???
There're many good pins so please don't get hung-up on that statement.

The craft is constantly evolving. Some builders set the pace.
They hit their stride and everyone else is left to play catch-up.
That's certainly not to say that everyone adheres to that philosophy.
Innovation and imagination are what separate the pace-setters from those that follow.

I learned 20 yrs ago that 'thin is in'.
Someone apparently put that same bug in Eric Crisp's ear as evidenced by his micro-rings.
That's innovation and will set the trend/pace. The followers were very quick to jump on that one.
He's got some of the right qualities and always will have because that's who he is, whether he chooses to build or not.
You could say it's a condition of having the right 'stuff'.

There's a much simpler explanation or answer to the OP's question and that is:
When do you say 'that's good enough'?
That's actually a loaded question because eventually, you have to get the work out the door.

KJ
 
KJ Cues said:
Accuracy and attention to detail are essential but there's much more to it than that.
Imagination and vision are also essential qualities. Following the crowd will only take you so far.
The crowd only goes where they go by consensus anyway. You need vision to see beyond that.
I've come to believe that the Uni-Radial pin is a pretty decent pin.
But do you think that everyone who's using it is doing so because they know WHY it's a good pin???
There're many good pins so please don't get hung-up on that statement.

The craft is constantly evolving. Some builders set the pace.
They hit their stride and everyone else is left to play catch-up.
That's certainly not to say that everyone adheres to that philosophy.
Innovation and imagination are what separate the pace-setters from those that follow.

I learned 20 yrs ago that 'thin is in'.
Someone apparently put that same bug in Eric Crisp's ear as evidenced by his micro-rings.
That's innovation and will set the trend/pace. The followers were very quick to jump on that one.
He's got some of the right qualities and always will have because that's who he is, whether he chooses to build or not.
You could say it's a condition of having the right 'stuff'.

There's a much simpler explanation or answer to the OP's question and that is:
When do you say 'that's good enough'?
That's actually a loaded question because eventually, you have to get the work out the door.

KJ
Click to expand...

Thats what I am talking about, could be more in line with what I wanted to ask or great addition.

To add some humor there was another gentleman there. As we were B.S.ing the cue maker told the story of years ago when I was trying to even up points on a sneaky. I had cut it down to about a .590 in frustration. These many years ago the cue maker yelled over to me " You gonna make a Butt for that shaft?" LOL
 
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I think it's a lot more than just accuracy and attention to detail. A great cue maker is separated also by innovation, longevity, consistency, etc. So much goes into weighing greatness. One could even argue what type of equipment and construction techniques. I know what my feelings are on the subject, but I won't start a pissing match today. One thing I know for sure is that there are a lot of cue "assemblers" out there, and then there are handful cue "MAKERS/BUILDERS"

just my little $.02,

Justin
 
Public Reputation is the number one thing I see that separates the good cuemaker from the great cuemaker. If the right people say you are great then the public will believe it. Someone who does a few details really well does not make them a better cuemaker than other good cuemakers. It only makes them great at that part of cuemaking. I know of top cue makers who have won awards for their designs, that I have never heard one good thing about how their cues play. I know cuemakers who get thousands of dollars for their cues and yet glue some of their structural parts with super glue.
Someone can make really nice veneered points with a few simple inlays and no original designs and be considered great. Others are considered great because they spent more on equipment than others and have no eye ball aligning of anything. It is all done in the computer program. My point is that most cuemakers are great at some parts of cuemaking, but none are great at all parts of cuemaking. So I guess than makes most talented cuemakers great cuemakers.
 
jhanso18 said:
I think it's a lot more than just accuracy and attention to detail. A great cue maker is separated also by innovation, longevity, consistency, etc. So much goes into weighing greatness. One could even argue what type of equipment and construction techniques. I know what my feelings are on the subject, but I won't start a pissing match today. One thing I know for sure is that there are a lot of cue "assemblers" out there, and then there are handful cue "MAKERS/BUILDERS"

just my little $.02,

Justin
Click to expand...

Justin,

Perhaps a little more definition detail between an assembler and builder?

My feelings won't be hurt so you can go on me as I am not even selling any cues I build. I am making simple Merry Widows. Does this qualify as assembler or builder?

If I remember my cue history right Balbushka did a lot with Burtin Spain.

It is a discussion forum, thoughts are what its all about.
 
TomHay said:
Justin,

Perhaps a little more definition detail between an assembler and builder?

My feelings won't be hurt so you can go on me as I am not even selling any cues I build. I am making simple Merry Widows. Does this qualify as assembler or builder?

If I remember my cue history right Balbushka did a lot with Burtin Spain.

It is a discussion forum, thoughts are what its all about.
Click to expand...

I have no problem elaborating, or hurting feelings for that matter ;)

I see a lot of guys out there buying blanks and shafts, that barely need a turn. They buy components and "assemble" them. Most of these guys can't even cut a pocket and inlay another piece. I'm not saying they don't have some skill, but hardly a "builder." Their stuff might even play good, but did the really build a cue, as apposed to buying components and putting them together?

It's my opinion that cues should be made with out any kind of computerized assistance or panto-graphs. This is MY preference, and it is not shared by many. I wouldn't venture as far as to call some one that uses CNC and panto-graph, to not be a cue maker/builder, but in my mind a "GREAT" builder shouldn't use such things. See my signature below for examples of this type of work.

It is my humble opinion that Keith builds the best cues in the world, and has been doing so for 30 years or so. He told me, "When I first started building cues were maybe dozen or two, custom builders in the world. Now there are thousands of builders/assemblers out there." I don't know that this is such a bad thing, but it doesn't change anything I've said above.

I would never be so pretentious as to look down my nose at an "assembler" vs. a "builder." Nor would I imply that what they do is easy. It is however far from what the builders make. I am of firm belief, if you are doing something you enjoy, then keep on doing it. In fact I've owned a couple of cues from assemblers. They played pretty good even. Not my cup of tea, so I sent them down the road.

I would also add that most builders, start as assemblers.

best,

Justin
 
jhanso18 said:
I have no problem elaborating, or hurting feelings for that matter ;)

I see a lot of guys out there buying blanks and shafts, that barely need a turn. They buy components and "assemble" them. Most of these guys can't even cut a pocket and inlay another piece. I'm not saying they don't have some skill, but hardly a "builder." Their stuff might even play good, but did the really build a cue, as apposed to buying components and putting them together?

It's my opinion that cues should be made with out any kind of computerized assistance or panto-graphs. This is MY preference, and it is not shared by many. I wouldn't venture as far as to call some one that uses CNC and panto-graph, to not be a cue maker/builder, but in my mind a "GREAT" builder shouldn't use such things. See my signature below for examples of this type of work.

It is my humble opinion that Keith builds the best cues in the world, and has been doing so for 30 years or so. He told me, "When I first started building cues were maybe dozen or two, custom builders in the world. Now there are thousands of builders/assemblers out there." I don't know that this is such a bad thing, but it doesn't change anything I've said above.

I would never be so pretentious as to look down my nose at an "assembler" vs. a "builder." Nor would I imply that what they do is easy. It is however far from what the builders make. I am of firm belief, if you are doing something you enjoy, then keep on doing it. In fact I've owned a couple of cues from assemblers. They played pretty good even. Not my cup of tea, so I sent them down the road.

I would also add that most builders, start as assemblers.

best,

Justin
Click to expand...

The GREAT cuemakers who have talent and actually make a good living most certainly dont share the same opinion.
 
LGSM3 said:
The GREAT cuemakers who have talent and actually make a good living most certainly dont share the same opinion.
Click to expand...

I don't think you fully read my post, as I shared several opinions. Trust me most "great" cue makers will agree with most of what I said. People get real touchy when you start talking about not using CNC/Panto, but outside of that, I would bet MOST agree.

I did not dog or degrade anyone. I only pointed out an obvious difference between a builder and an assembler. I know of a couple of guys off the top of my head that put out 4 point, veneered, full splice cues together. They can't splice the two pieces of wood, or install veneers for them selves. It doesn't mean they make a bad cue, or that they are not talented, just not as talented as say Davis, for example.

When it comes to building cues, I catch A LOT of guff for my views. I'm not going to come out and dog any one, or insult any one. Whether you share my view or not, it takes A LOT of work to assemble or build a cue. to make every thing fit and center correctly is not as easy as most people think. For that I give anyone who puts a cue together credit. It's more than what 99% of people who have thought about building a cue ever get done!


best,

Justin
 
Justin,

I believe that many of Paul Daytons cues had the points etc cut by hand. I admire this sort of thing but few have this God given ability.

I am curious of your statement that you have had cues that were made by people who by your definition assembled, hit fine for you but were not your cup of tea.

I have never, and I dare say you have never put a few racks away while looking at the butt end of your cue while making balls.

If it has a wrap, it will feel like it has a wrap. If it does not it will feel like clear coat.

Now please my friend, I do not believe the cues you are speaking of are whittled with a knife or hand planned down. I believe a Router or Spindle was used for the taper. If you read my initial post I never mentioned CNC I spoke of my friend using a dial indicator to get each wing of his cutter perfect so that each wing hit the cue while tapering at the excact same distance. Most would just put that wing cutter on and the highest wing in would be the only one cutting.

I like the beauty of the wood to do the talking and my taste in looks of cues, the less CNC the better except for maybe some very small accent things but if you put a cue in my hand that is nothing but CNC and it hits exactly like I want a cue to hit its a keeper. That however boild down to eye appeal, nothing more, nothing less.

On the flip side I have a deal for you. I will put .005 CNC cutting bits in a machine all day long, you Z down for distance, bring it back up and turn the machine on. For each cut that comes out perfect with no glue lines and you not breaking a bit I will give you $100.00. For everyone you don't you give me $100.00. The cost of the bit in quanttity is $50.00 per so I am giving you 2 to 1 odds.

Nothing is quite as easy as it may seem. No, LOL, I will not make the same deal free hand cutting as I still have 10 fingers and boy am I a klutz.
 
Do you realize there are very few cue makers doing inlays by hand nowadays. I've only heard of a couple and the ones I've heard of come from the Philippines.
 
jhanso18 said:
I don't think you fully read my post, as I shared several opinions. Trust me most "great" cue makers will agree with most of what I said. People get real touchy when you start talking about not using CNC/Panto, but outside of that, I would bet MOST agree.

I did not dog or degrade anyone. I only pointed out an obvious difference between a builder and an assembler. I know of a couple of guys off the top of my head that put out 4 point, veneered, full splice cues together. They can't splice the two pieces of wood, or install veneers for them selves. It doesn't mean they make a bad cue, or that they are not talented, just not as talented as say Davis, for example.

When it comes to building cues, I catch A LOT of guff for my views. I'm not going to come out and dog any one, or insult any one. Whether you share my view or not, it takes A LOT of work to assemble or build a cue. to make every thing fit and center correctly is not as easy as most people think. For that I give anyone who puts a cue together credit. It's more than what 99% of people who have thought about building a cue ever get done!


best,

Justin
Click to expand...

I respect your opinion and probably should have worded my post a little less abrupt.
I do however think that if you were a cuemaker, with talent and any sort of creativity that you would feel differently about the use of modern technology to help execute an idea that would otherwise be next to impossible.

I will also respectfully disagree specifically with your last paragraph. I feel that damn near anyone has the aptitude to make a cue "the AZ Billiards cuemaker phenomenon is proof of that" Less than 1% will achieve greatness. Of course this entire thread is only relevant to peoples opinion so it doesnt really matter.
 
TomHay said:
You can tell from Pics of my past and present work I do not fall under either, I love making them but lack the ummmphh. It's not my age, you have it or you don't.

I have seen many fantastic cues shown on AZ and yes I think there are great Cue Makers on here that post. I will not name one as to forget one would be worse.

I had a chance today to spend it in a great cue makers shop, B.S and watch.

I don't think this is a big trade secret so I will give a little of what I saw as great rather than good.

The cue maker was getting ready to do some cuts with his spindle which is like a pros router. He inserted a winged cutting blade. After inserting the winged cutting blade he set up his dial indicator and proceeded to measure and tap until all the wing blades were equal. This is not a one minute job.

To me its those steps that set people aside from the rest. Maybe you already take these steps, I don't know.

What sets aside a good to great cue maker to you?
Click to expand...



Good Advertising!!!!!!!!!

If the cue Pimps can make a deal with a cue maker to represent them an unknown can go from the closet to center stage in a matter of months!!

It happens all the time, but few are left standing after a couple of years. So in my opinion time is what separates cream from the milk!!!:)
 
manwon said:
Good Advertising!!!!!!!!!

If the cue Pimps can make a deal with a cue maker to represent them an unknown can go from the closet to center stage in a matter of months!!

It happens all the time, but few are left standing after a couple of years. So in my opinion time is what separates cream from the milk!!!:)
Click to expand...

I know you can't be talking about me as a cue pimp and trying to advertise for gain.

My Cue Maker friend lives in Lake Worth Florida and puts an S on all his cues, a cue pimp is one thing he does not need:rotflmao:
 
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