What makes inexpensive cues "cheap" (in the bad-quality sense)?

[Still_Learning]

I've recently upgraded to a custom cue, and I love the hit and feel. It just seems so much more solid than, say, an $85 Sterling cue, or a similarly-priced Players or Fury. But I can't figure out why.

These basic production cues, and I'll include low-end Vikings and McDermotts in that category--why don't they seem to hit as well or as solidly as the better cues? Is it the wood? The joint pins? The balance?

 

[IA8baller]

Yes it's the materials. The quality of the wood in the shaft will make a great difference. The weight distribution makes a difference. The joint materials and it's construction definitely make a difference in the feel of the hit.

 

[Pushout]

I'm not going to try and answer your question, but I will say this: newcomers to the game have a hell of a lot more and better cue options than I did when I started. My first cue was a cheap Adam with a ramin wood shaft

 

[JB Cases]

It's hard to buy a bad cue these days.

"The Fury (DL-06) hits better than my $2000 custom cue" John Fargo, owner of Crown Billiards. This was just said by John after he bought the Fury to play in a league event at this past week's Super Billiards Expo and needed a cue.

Hit is in the mind of the shooter.

Corey Harper, UPA Pro, picked up a Sterling cue at the 08 Super Billiards Expo and started running out with it. He went on to tell others about the quality of the cue and the hit.

There is a certain pyschology that comes with a "custom" cue. A certain expectation that it must hit better because it's a custom cue and so that expectation is often fulfilled.

However there is also the fact that most custom cuemakers have the luxury to tweak their cues to have a certain hit which is often different than the generic hit that most production cues go for. Production cues go for the average, 18"-12" pro-taper, 18" balance, Le Pro or Triangle tips, similar butt tapers, similar three part construction, similar butt diameters. Thus production cues tend to have a similar and some might feel a bland hit.

McDermott, Meucci, Schon, Joss, and Viking are the templates for most of the production cues made in the world. Most Asian production cues are a hybrid of these five brands in my opinion. Thus they tend to have a hit that is comparable to these brands.

Production cues generally have a very consistent hit. Custom cues generally have a distinct hit. This leads one to believe that one is "better" than another. And individually this is true.

I have seen however how the mind plays tricks on a person. I have some cues which are unmarked and are made on the same line as the production cues. I have told people, as an experiment, that these cues are custom made and invited them to compare them to the known brands. In amost every test the "custom" cue gets the higher ratings.

Certainly there is something to the use of better materials and better techniques. But unless you have the ability to dissect a cue and determine exactly how it was built you cannot say that the "hit" of a cue can tell you how one cue was built versus another one.

Hit is so subjective and so individual that it is a poor criteria to judge a cue's quality. On the other hand it is an excellent way to describe a cue
s [erformance among those who speak the same language. People who know my game and skill level can easily trust my judgement when I say a cue hits good. Those who don't have no clue what I mean when I say a cue hits good. And some of the most expensive custom cues made are known for not having a very good hit. And those who understand hit as I do know what this means.

See what I mean?

 

[JoeyInCali]

I've recently upgraded to a custom cue, and I love the hit and feel.

Congrats. Enjoy the cue.

 

[SPINDOKTOR]

Fury RP series hit hard, at one time I used the NR series, it played very well, but the hit is even better with the RP series...Much more solid. IMHO...


I have a RP-9, when I switched to the X Shaft, the X shaft actualy had a softer hit that the Fury Shaft, even after the Sniper tip had seated in, Fury hits a ton..


SPINDOKTOR

 

[rhncue]

It's hard to buy a bad cue these days.

"The Fury (DL-06) hits better than my $2000 custom cue" John Fargo, owner of Crown Billiards. This was just said by John after he bought the Fury to play in a league event at this past week's Super Billiards Expo and needed a cue.

Hit is in the mind of the shooter.

Corey Harper, UPA Pro, picked up a Sterling cue at the 08 Super Billiards Expo and started running out with it. He went on to tell others about the quality of the cue and the hit.

There is a certain pyschology that comes with a "custom" cue. A certain expectation that it must hit better because it's a custom cue and so that expectation is often fulfilled.

However there is also the fact that most custom cuemakers have the luxury to tweak their cues to have a certain hit which is often different than the generic hit that most production cues go for. Production cues go for the average, 18"-12" pro-taper, 18" balance, Le Pro or Triangle tips, similar butt tapers, similar three part construction, similar butt diameters. Thus production cues tend to have a similar and some might feel a bland hit.

McDermott, Meucci, Schon, Joss, and Viking are the templates for most of the production cues made in the world. Most Asian production cues are a hybrid of these five brands in my opinion. Thus they tend to have a hit that is comparable to these brands.

Production cues generally have a very consistent hit. Custom cues generally have a distinct hit. This leads one to believe that one is "better" than another. And individually this is true.

I have seen however how the mind plays tricks on a person. I have some cues which are unmarked and are made on the same line as the production cues. I have told people, as an experiment, that these cues are custom made and invited them to compare them to the known brands. In amost every test the "custom" cue gets the higher ratings.

Certainly there is something to the use of better materials and better techniques. But unless you have the ability to dissect a cue and determine exactly how it was built you cannot say that the "hit" of a cue can tell you how one cue was built versus another one.

Hit is so subjective and so individual that it is a poor criteria to judge a cue's quality. On the other hand it is an excellent way to describe a cue
s [erformance among those who speak the same language. People who know my game and skill level can easily trust my judgement when I say a cue hits good. Those who don't have no clue what I mean when I say a cue hits good. And some of the most expensive custom cues made are known for not having a very good hit. And those who understand hit as I do know what this means.

See what I mean?

There is no correlation between cheap/expensive cues and quality of hit. I've seen many expensive cues that I felt hit poorly compared to some cheap ones but that certainly isn't the norm. The main difference between the cheaper cues and the better built ones is just how long they will last. Cheap cues usually start falling apart after the first ball contact. They are built with much cheaper materials, woods that aren't properly aged or incrementally turned so that they start warping before they are even out of the shipping crate. They use inferior glues to put together, cheap plastic ferrules that crack very easily, the tip usually falls off in the first playing session. The Irish linen wrap that comes on them is not installed properly so that it shifts and starts to come off very quickly. I install at least 25 wraps on Asian cues to every one on American made. In cues, the saying that you get what you pay for could never be truer.

Dick

 

[alstl]

It's hard to buy a bad cue these days.

"The Fury (DL-06) hits better than my $2000 custom cue" John Fargo, owner of Crown Billiards. This was just said by John after he bought the Fury to play in a league event at this past week's Super Billiards Expo and needed a cue.

Hit is in the mind of the shooter.

Corey Harper, UPA Pro, picked up a Sterling cue at the 08 Super Billiards Expo and started running out with it. He went on to tell others about the quality of the cue and the hit.

There is a certain pyschology that comes with a "custom" cue. A certain expectation that it must hit better because it's a custom cue and so that expectation is often fulfilled.

However there is also the fact that most custom cuemakers have the luxury to tweak their cues to have a certain hit which is often different than the generic hit that most production cues go for. Production cues go for the average, 18"-12" pro-taper, 18" balance, Le Pro or Triangle tips, similar butt tapers, similar three part construction, similar butt diameters. Thus production cues tend to have a similar and some might feel a bland hit.

McDermott, Meucci, Schon, Joss, and Viking are the templates for most of the production cues made in the world. Most Asian production cues are a hybrid of these five brands in my opinion. Thus they tend to have a hit that is comparable to these brands.

Production cues generally have a very consistent hit. Custom cues generally have a distinct hit. This leads one to believe that one is "better" than another. And individually this is true.

I have seen however how the mind plays tricks on a person. I have some cues which are unmarked and are made on the same line as the production cues. I have told people, as an experiment, that these cues are custom made and invited them to compare them to the known brands. In amost every test the "custom" cue gets the higher ratings.

Certainly there is something to the use of better materials and better techniques. But unless you have the ability to dissect a cue and determine exactly how it was built you cannot say that the "hit" of a cue can tell you how one cue was built versus another one.

Hit is so subjective and so individual that it is a poor criteria to judge a cue's quality. On the other hand it is an excellent way to describe a cue
s [erformance among those who speak the same language. People who know my game and skill level can easily trust my judgement when I say a cue hits good. Those who don't have no clue what I mean when I say a cue hits good. And some of the most expensive custom cues made are known for not having a very good hit. And those who understand hit as I do know what this means.

See what I mean?

Explain what exactly you mean by "hit" so I can understand it as you do.

 

[JB Cases]

There is no correlation between cheap/expensive cues and quality of hit. I've seen many expensive cues that I felt hit poorly compared to some cheap ones but that certainly isn't the norm. The main difference between the cheaper cues and the better built ones is just how long they will last. Cheap cues usually start falling apart after the first ball contact. They are built with much cheaper materials, woods that aren't properly aged or incrementally turned so that they start warping before they are even out of the shipping crate. They use inferior glues to put together, cheap plastic ferrules that crack very easily, the tip usually falls off in the first playing session. The Irish linen wrap that comes on them is not installed properly so that it shifts and starts to come off very quickly. I install at least 25 wraps on Asian cues to every one on American made. In cues, the saying that you get what you pay for could never be truer.

Dick

I think that most of what you say about quality of materials used is less true now than in the past.

I can't speak for the factory that makes Lucasi cues but when speaking of the factory that makes Fury cues I can tell you that they do use adhesives that are the same or the equivalent of what is used in the USA for cues. This factory, Kao Kao, has had the benefit of instruction by some of the USA's very best cue makers and the working process is very similar.

That said, there are plenty of smaller Asian cue makers whose products trickle in through places like Ebay and smaller dealers who can't afford to buy from the good factories. These cue makers don't have the access to the techniques that the USA cue makers use. They don't have access to the quality of wood.

15 years ago it was a different story. Now, at least for the best Asian cue makers, the quality level is nearly level with the production companies in the USA. If a customer comes to the best Asian cue companies and says they want a cue with aged maple, ivorine3 ferrules, cored ebony butts, full splices and so on then they can get it. In our factory we have more than one million shafts in various stages of turning, dated and hanging just as I have seen them hung in shops like Tim Scruggs' place in Baltimore. We have millions of squares and round stock for butts that is also in various stages of drying and turning. This wood is also graded.

Remember I speak for the best of the Asian cue makers and specifically for Kao Kao. Kao Kao produces a lot of brands at different price and quality levels. The days of going from tree trunk to cue in one week are gone for Kao Kao. Kao Kao produces the Fury and Sterling brands mentioned at the beginning of this thread.

Last week at Valley Forge I had the pleasure of getting complimented on the quality of our cues by some collectors who normally don't touch production cues. But in this case they were visiting the GTF case stand located in the Sterling Pavilion and so were confronted by the Fury, Sterling and Blaze cues out of boredom. Although I know such collectors would never purchase one of our cues they did say that the fit and finish was well done.

 

[Flex]

There is no correlation between cheap/expensive cues and quality of hit. I've seen many expensive cues that I felt hit poorly compared to some cheap ones but that certainly isn't the norm. The main difference between the cheaper cues and the better built ones is just how long they will last. Cheap cues usually start falling apart after the first ball contact. They are built with much cheaper materials, woods that aren't properly aged or incrementally turned so that they start warping before they are even out of the shipping crate. They use inferior glues to put together, cheap plastic ferrules that crack very easily, the tip usually falls off in the first playing session. The Irish linen wrap that comes on them is not installed properly so that it shifts and starts to come off very quickly. I install at least 25 wraps on Asian cues to every one on American made. In cues, the saying that you get what you pay for could never be truer.

Dick

Question for you, sir.

How do you rate the full-splice sneaky pete cues made by Schmelke?

Flex

 

[JB Cases]

Explain what exactly you mean by "hit" so I can understand it as you do.

That is my point. My friends who know me and my game know what to expect when I say a cue hits such and such way and hand it to them.

They know my taste in cues and what cues I consider to hit good and which ones I don't like so much.

For example if I tell you that I like the hit of all steel jointed Scruggs and don't like the hit of Ivory jointed Scruggs but I do like ivory jointed Joss and Joss West cues. And if I tell you that I can run three racks once in a while then you can get an idea of my ability. So with that info you can hit with a Scruggs or JW or a Joss and determine if we have similar tastes or not.

If so then perhaps if I am selling a cue and I say it has a good hit then you might trust my judgement. Totally subjective.

We have no "hit-o-meter" to tell us what the hit is in quantifiable terms.

If asked for a definition then the best I can do is say that hitting a ball feels effortless, without struggle, hesitation, or question. A cue that allows that state of being instantly has a good hit. The thing is that the cue which does that for me may not be the one that does it for you.

 

[JB Cases]

Fury RP series hit hard, at one time I used the NR series, it played very well, but the hit is even better with the RP series...Much more solid. IMHO...


I have a RP-9, when I switched to the X Shaft, the X shaft actualy had a softer hit that the Fury Shaft, even after the Sniper tip had seated in, Fury hits a ton..


SPINDOKTOR

I use a Fury RP 10. Tonight I took it to the poolroom and tried out the new Tiger Shaft. Pretty sweet. I like it even better than the generation 1 shafts.

I also have a custom Fury shaft that is 1" shorter and has a 1/2" ferrule. I compared that against the Tiger shaft and it was very close.

The point being that there are many tweaks which can change the "hit" and turn a decent hit into a stellar one.

 

[ribdoner]

I've recently upgraded to a custom cue, and I love the hit and feel. It just seems so much more solid than, say, an $85 Sterling cue, or a similarly-priced Players or Fury. But I can't figure out why.

These basic production cues, and I'll include low-end Vikings and McDermotts in that category--why don't they seem to hit as well or as solidly as the better cues? Is it the wood? The joint pins? The balance?

WHAT MAKES INEXPENSIVE CUES "CHEAP" (in the bad-quality sense)?

Inferior materials

Inadequate quality control

 

[Snapshot9]

Consider

that on a $85 cue, they want to make a profit of 20%, which is $17.
Then their costs can not exceed $68, of which at least half will be
labor costs in making the cue, leaving $34 for materials.

The wood would cost $20 at the cheapest, leaving $14 for the tip, ferrule, glue, finish, and joint.

Lets see, would you want a cue that only had 2-3 hours labor making it, and $14 for all the non-wood materials used?

You figure it out!!!

 

[rhncue]

Question for you, sir.

How do you rate the full-splice sneaky pete cues made by Schmelke?

Flex

I've got no clue as I've never seen one that they had completed so I don't know the fit and finish. I will say that I have bought many of their full splice blanks to finish into "Sneaky Pete" conversions. For the money they can't be beat and many of the better cue-makers use these as a base to build their "Sneaky Pete's" out of, although, many may deny it.

Dick

 

[Scott Lee]

Wow Scott...How come you say this, after John Barton posted very accurate information on Asian-produced cues? Didn't you READ his posts, before posting yourself? BTW, your figures are WAY off. I know for a fact that those <$100 cues cost about $10-$15 to the manufacturing importer. They have told me so themselves...but that doesn't make them crummy. The overall quality of mass production cues from Asia has improved 1000% over the past 10-15 yrs.! One of my best friends has a $4000 Cognoscenti, and a qPerfect custom by Ronnie Powell. Both are excellent custom cues. He PLAYS more often with a 5280 from Cuestix that cost him about $80...says it plays like a dream (and this is a discontinued brand, due to poor sales). Like JB said, you can get any quality cue you want from China...including top-level custom cues.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

that on a $85 cue, they want to make a profit of 20%, which is $17.
Then their costs can not exceed $68, of which at least half will be
labor costs in making the cue, leaving $34 for materials.

The wood would cost $20 at the cheapest, leaving $14 for the tip, ferrule, glue, finish, and joint.

Lets see, would you want a cue that only had 2-3 hours labor making it, and $14 for all the non-wood materials used?

You figure it out!!!

 

[CrownCityCorey]

Corey Harper, UPA Pro, picked up a Sterling cue at the 08 Super Billiards Expo and started running out with it. He went on to tell others about the quality of the cue and the hit.

That Sterling cue was balanced real well and had great finish work to it. It played like a nice custom cue. I was shocked that the retail price tag was under $100 .

Knowing the source, I expected it to be at least in the $200-300 range.

There have been some strong improvements in the Sterling camp.

 

[TheBook]

I see many factors that go into the cost of a cue. One is capital investment. A custom maker has to invest a lot into his workshop. It will take him a long time to recoup that money. Most only have the time or capacity to make 100 per year. It may take them a lot of time to set up their equipment and it may have to be changed for the next cue.

Mass produced cues also have large capital investments but they are working in quantities. Once the machines are set up you can just let them roll. Feed the stock in and keep pumping them out. The operators don't have to have any skill. They also get a distributor to buy thousands and spread them out around the world.

The materials may be good but you won't find layered tips, ivory ferrules, leather wraps and etc. Your choice is what they have in stock. When that stock is gone more will come in. The new stuff may be a little different but it still won't have any of the premium features.

Does that mean they aren't very good. Not really. They can just be made cheaper.

 

[JB Cases]

As I have said many times price is not the benchmark of quality. Nor is the price of manufacturing the benchmark.

This thread talks about the difference that the original poster feels in the hit between production cues and (his) custom cue.

This has nothing to do with price and everything to do with personal preference.

In a blind test on "hit" I am confident that the best of the production cues could indeed do very well up against the best of the custom cues. When you take "name" - "price" - "origin" - and "prejudice" out of the equation then you are left with performance.

There is no doubt in my mind that different construction methods produce cues of different performance levels. It has to be that way. However how any one person rates the performance is what is subjective.

I know someone who plays lights out with a Sterling sneaky pete. This is a $59 cue. I don't know what it costs to produce it. It's a full-splice cue with a pro taper, fiber ferrule, and comes with a Le Pro tip. Conversely I know many people who can't get to the end rail with their SouthWest. Would my friend play better with the SouthWest? Maybe. But he can have and can afford any cue he chooses - certainly any cue in between a Sterling sneaky pete and a SouthWest.

As Ribdoner posted - what makes a cue inferior, or "bad quality", is low quality materials and poor quality control. I would add to that poor construction methods. This has nothing to do with price.

Those of you that have been in the game for a long time have all come across the expensive custom cue from time to time which has a crappy hit (to you) and displays poor workmanship and crappy materials. I have many times in 20+ years. Just as a low price does not mean a cue is bad nor does a high price insure that it is good.

 

[Still_Learning]

Great information--thanks

This thread talks about the difference that the original poster feels in the hit between production cues and (his) custom cue.

You're right, but I was happy to read some of the long, and very informative, responses by some of the very knowledgeable people who responded, including you. I wasn't clear in my original post, but I was wondering how quality of wood and materials affected a cue and how it plays, and I learned a lot.

I also Googled "wood quality" and found some interesting web sites that talk about how wood quality is measured, and what quality really means, and I can see how strength and density would play a role in a cue's feel and performance. Combining all that with what has been posted has taught me a ton.

So, thanks everyone. And it was nice meeting you, JB Cases, at the SB Expo. I'm one of the people who bought a cue case pouch even though it won't currently fit on my 3x5 Instroke. I'll figure something out.