Excellent post, sir, as well as the previous definitions. :thumbup:
What or who is a flipper?
- Thread starter lenoxmjs
- Start date
Excellent post, sir, as well as the previous definitions. :thumbup:
This. And they think they are dealers.......
He was not referring to me bud. I have never bought a Gilbert on Ebay. ��
Thanks for the kind words. I always try and give people a good deal on my cues I pick up.
I dont get it. If the cue could be had for $300, why not just buy it from another supplier? Why would you feel a need to get into a bidding war? In that sense, you are partly responsable for driving the price up? If it is a rare item and is highly desirable, the demand will set the price. I have been aelling on ebay from the beginning, like when you could sell firearms on ebay era. I have seen trends come and go. I tend to focus on original pieces from little known craftsman that produce world class products. Cues are cues, pretty much, unless, again, it is a original piece built by a desired craftsman and rare. Pretty amazing what some collectors will shell out for just the piece they are missing or desiring...
We are talking about CUSTOM cues. Not production! Where do you get another Brazilian rosewood Gilbert jump break??? How long to get one made??? Gilbert stopped making them??? Switched joints from radial to quick release! These things happen or the blank was a old titlist. each Custom cue is rather Unigue! Find a 18 to 19 ounce southwest lately??? Pretty darn rare! People buy and want cues for various reasons and all cues have different selling points! Too hard to replicate with out great time and expense if even possible at all.
Kd
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Whats with all the anger towards "flippers"? call me one if you want, but I have bought and sold hundreds of cues, some with the intention of making money.....and some go into my collection. I have cash and can get a good deal, another dude wants what I have and I make a few bucks. No one is forced to buy at my price.....and if I "own" a specific cue a collector wants....he can accept or refuse my number. I become a "collector" the minute I refuse an offer on ANYTHING I have to sell!
I have been a "dealer"....and I had to purchase "x" amount to get dealer pricing, and I could not sell below manufacturers pricing or they stop selling to me. Too constraining for my likes. Sometimes I need to dump inventory at cost or below to get $$$ for the next deal. Is that "dump" price the new market price for those cues? for that day it is. THAT is business, if you don't get it don't go into business.
The Wife and I own a Brokerage. We have flipped houses for years. Win some lose some, but in EVERY market there are super deals at every price range. If you took flippers out of the scenario there would be a huge vacuum where their $$$ was causing price increases to everyone. Houses like cues have buyers looking to hold, and some to flip a profit. Remove flippers and you have a market of manufacture/dealer/buy and hold.....how can you have a used market with no one selling? and we all know the real money is in the resale market of most anything.
BTW....how long do you have to "hold onto" something before you sell to not be labeled a "flipper"?
G.
I have been a "dealer"....and I had to purchase "x" amount to get dealer pricing, and I could not sell below manufacturers pricing or they stop selling to me. Too constraining for my likes. Sometimes I need to dump inventory at cost or below to get $$$ for the next deal. Is that "dump" price the new market price for those cues? for that day it is. THAT is business, if you don't get it don't go into business.
The Wife and I own a Brokerage. We have flipped houses for years. Win some lose some, but in EVERY market there are super deals at every price range. If you took flippers out of the scenario there would be a huge vacuum where their $$$ was causing price increases to everyone. Houses like cues have buyers looking to hold, and some to flip a profit. Remove flippers and you have a market of manufacture/dealer/buy and hold.....how can you have a used market with no one selling? and we all know the real money is in the resale market of most anything.
BTW....how long do you have to "hold onto" something before you sell to not be labeled a "flipper"?
G.
Kid;
everything you are describing sounds like reasons why a flipper or yourself would want that particular cue so, to my mind, it seems like that cue's actual market price was found.
If you, or someone else scored it for $300 that probably would have been a great buy.
Supply/demand/what the market would bear, all said $400-$450.
best,
brian kc
That person should learn how to bid on Ebay using a sniper. In this example the person is trying steal...err...get a 'great bargain' and got pissed because he wasn't able too. :groucho: IMHO
Ok let me clear this up!
This is America and we are all free to do what we want!!!
My issue with flippers is their MOTIVE only!
They wish and inflict *HARM* to the members of the cue buying community in my opinion. This *Intent to do harm* is the only logical explanation for buying something you have no interest in as a *Tool to improve your game* or a "Piece of art added to your collection"
The "Malice" associated with the purchasing "DECISION" is why I am upset about flippers and why others may feel as I do.
From the word go they see this community as a bunch of "Fat Cats" ripe for the picking in my opinion! They see nothing wrong with milking a bunch of whale cue collectors and an occasional player looking for a "Magic ball making stick". This is how i see it. The only people that benefit from the "Flipper" is the cue dealer that gets increased liquidity and inflated prices from flipper activity.
House flippers make improvements to increase the price and "EARN" the money from the headache associated with contractors and etc. Cue flippers make "ZERO" improvements. Lucky to get a new tip on the cue at best.
KD
This is America and we are all free to do what we want!!!
My issue with flippers is their MOTIVE only!
They wish and inflict *HARM* to the members of the cue buying community in my opinion. This *Intent to do harm* is the only logical explanation for buying something you have no interest in as a *Tool to improve your game* or a "Piece of art added to your collection"
The "Malice" associated with the purchasing "DECISION" is why I am upset about flippers and why others may feel as I do.
From the word go they see this community as a bunch of "Fat Cats" ripe for the picking in my opinion! They see nothing wrong with milking a bunch of whale cue collectors and an occasional player looking for a "Magic ball making stick". This is how i see it. The only people that benefit from the "Flipper" is the cue dealer that gets increased liquidity and inflated prices from flipper activity.
House flippers make improvements to increase the price and "EARN" the money from the headache associated with contractors and etc. Cue flippers make "ZERO" improvements. Lucky to get a new tip on the cue at best.
KD
The only two good things I can think of for going through a flipper/dealer is that they have more available cues (some of which they designed with the cuemaker) ready to ship with no waiting period. They also can come in handy if you want to just look at inventory and buy without much trouble.
The down side is they have their profit built in the price of the cue. If you want the best price you would be better off to just go straight through the cuemaker instead of a 2nd/3rd party where there is repeated markup. A $2k cue from the cuemaker would cost X amount higher from the 2nd party, or even XX amount higher from a 3rd party who got it from a 2nd party...and so forth. Some people aren't creative with design though so the dealer/flipper just having something available could be a good thing for them to basically just see a good cue, and then buy it. As long as they know the $$ aspect in terms of the price is always higher than buying that same exact cue from the cuemaker (having them make it from scratch) it's not that big of a deal.
The down side is they have their profit built in the price of the cue. If you want the best price you would be better off to just go straight through the cuemaker instead of a 2nd/3rd party where there is repeated markup. A $2k cue from the cuemaker would cost X amount higher from the 2nd party, or even XX amount higher from a 3rd party who got it from a 2nd party...and so forth. Some people aren't creative with design though so the dealer/flipper just having something available could be a good thing for them to basically just see a good cue, and then buy it. As long as they know the $$ aspect in terms of the price is always higher than buying that same exact cue from the cuemaker (having them make it from scratch) it's not that big of a deal.
Whenever I see or hear anyone use the term flipper, I see someone who is jealous of someone.
I was a "flipper" for a while and I do much less of it now.
I bought cues from folks that usually needed some fast money. Their cues usually needed some work, and they either didn't have the time, knowledge, or desire to have shafts made, or get it refinished.
I will describe a typical deal for me. I bought a cue from a guy in my hometown for $400, that he couldn't sell otherwise. It had one shaft and needed refinished. It had been a fairly expensive Bob Owen cue. I sent it to Bob for a complete refinish, had a shaft made and the other shaft cleaned up and new tip installed on it. When it was finished it all looked brand new including the shafts, collars, etc.
I sold the cue later for $1100.
That IMO, is the role of a lot of flippers. Could it have been done by the guy I bought it from? Sure, but he wanted $400 immediately and not $1100 in a month or so.
So after this is done, the "flipper" makes a few bucks ($300-400) and is called the bad guy by the nits.
And so it goes,
Ken
I was a "flipper" for a while and I do much less of it now.
I bought cues from folks that usually needed some fast money. Their cues usually needed some work, and they either didn't have the time, knowledge, or desire to have shafts made, or get it refinished.
I will describe a typical deal for me. I bought a cue from a guy in my hometown for $400, that he couldn't sell otherwise. It had one shaft and needed refinished. It had been a fairly expensive Bob Owen cue. I sent it to Bob for a complete refinish, had a shaft made and the other shaft cleaned up and new tip installed on it. When it was finished it all looked brand new including the shafts, collars, etc.
I sold the cue later for $1100.
That IMO, is the role of a lot of flippers. Could it have been done by the guy I bought it from? Sure, but he wanted $400 immediately and not $1100 in a month or so.
So after this is done, the "flipper" makes a few bucks ($300-400) and is called the bad guy by the nits.
And so it goes,
Ken
Spot on IMO
Very well written and in the end it's all about what the market will bear.
Put it this way, if you know anything about the history of cues, were it not for flippers and legitimate dealers, the custom cue industry would never have achieved the heights that is has. Tough market now, yes, but it's still in a much higher place than it would have been....in the absence of these entities over the last 3+ decades.
So let me get this straight. Someone out there is willing to pay $400 because he knows it is really worth $450 and he's an awful human being because you wanted to pay the original owner $150 under market value. Got it.
I would say they do they may opposite. A flipper is looking for a quick profit so they usually will sell under market. They also don't screw around the seller. They make an offer and have cash in hand to complete the deal. Not like the dreamer who makes an offer and may or may not pay in a week or two.
They have their place in the market.
Market value is based on what someone is willing to pay. The minimum was 300 so seller wanted 300!
Seller got 400 because of a flipper that did not want the cue for personal use.
So to answer your post in this example the seller benefits and is not harmed by the offer!
Only buyer gets hurt.
Kd
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Yes, it wasn't the math I was having trouble with. The seller wanted as much as they market would pay...it was an auction. So, if the flipper didn't exist, you are trying to say the seller isn't worse off?
"Flippers" have been around as long as auctions. It is clearly shady if they are getting on cue makers waiting lists just to resell cues, but when someone buys a cue at auction because they see it is undervalued, and resells it on the open market, that's simply capitalism. This is not unique to cues, the same happens with custom holster makers, knife makers and hundreds of other areas.
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