What Type of Cueist Are You & Why Do You Think Your Way is Best?

[greyghost]

Well; it's like this Scott.....I'm totally self -taught. I play in my basement. Until I started reading AZ three years ago, I had read virtually nothing about pool and owned no videos. It wasn't long after I started reading AZ that I was introduced to the pool musings of C J Wiley. His bits of instruction resonated with me immediately. It wasn't because he was a pro. (Ted Williams was a really bad manager) It was because there was a whole bunch of stuff he was thinking that I could relate to for the simple reason that....I HAD ALREADY THOUGHT THE SAME THING!

Basically; as I read him I'd recognize that he was teaching something I was in the process of discovering myself. In his case though, he had the whole thing laid out, structured, refined, and was explaining it in a way I could easily understand. He was explaining things I would have figured out myself eventually; but, I don't know how many years down the line that would take me, and I'm sure I would never have gotten to the "essence" of things as well as he.....after all, I'm just a guy in my basement.

I have white burns on the cloth at all four corners of my table. It's from practicing thousands of straight center - ball shots. There's nothing as pure and satisfying as shooting a full - table perfectly straight center - ball shot in the middle of the pocket while making the cue ball stop on a dime. It's pool ecstasy! On cut shots however, no matter how miniscule or sharp the cut, center ball shooting is not as effective as T.O.I. It's not nearly as effective!

I like making balls. If center ball shooting was more effective than T.O.I on cut shots, I'd be shooting center - ball on cut shots. I've shot center - ball on cut shots a zillion and four times. As I said, It's not as effective as T.O.I. It's not nearly as effective.

I really don't have a clue if CJ Wiley teaches shape, safety play, strategy, etc., any differently than many other instructors. Stroke and shot - making was the focus of his posting over here; but, having said all I just said above, I used to be absolutely dumb - founded at the criticism he received. Posters would call him every name in the book for espousing ideas THAT RESONATED WITH ME IMMEDIATELY!

If the ideas didn't resonate with those posters.....That's OK...." Different strokes for different folks.' What made me dumb - founded though, was how so many posters shook their heads in disbelief at what he was saying; while, as I said, IT RESONATED WITH ME IMMEDIATELY!

So on to Rick......C.J Wileys thoughts resonate with him immediately also. He was also dumb - founded by so many posters shaking their heads in disbelief at what Wiley was saying....a kindred soul with me in that respect... I listen when Rick expresses his distain for certain instructors; but I'm not yet educated enough to entirely agree or disagree. When those instructors he has distain for post, I'll read them with an open mind; but, if any instructor can't appreciate T.O.I or the teachings of C.J Wiley, I might ask them if they'll teach me something about shape, safety play, strategy, etc. if they are known to excel in teaching such subjects; but we'll have to agree to not broach the subject of shot - making.....I haven't gotten around to this though! I will I think. In the meantime, I'm fond of my basement!

nice well thought out post.... I remember Cj posting some things that have made me think....ahhh i'm not quite sure about all that. I've seen him say some things that just dont make sense......BUT. We have all said chit like that. Which is one reason youve wont ever (at least not with me....some are famously known for this) find my old posts getting edited for content as to me explaining something. I like seeing myself and others grow.

I havent owned Cj's material, only seen his musings here as you call it, along with the few face to face talks we've had in years past.

I've said it before ill say it again TOI is very old, and it does work. Does it work better than just playing regular? NO....thats BS. TOI is about making balls.....Pool is much more than making balls, thats just the quick crack feind fix.....i mean who doesn't like to make balls.

The games not about making balls. None of them. Its about how you manage your furniture, how the house gets arranged and rearragned by YOU....and also your opponent that YOU have to deal with.

TOI is wonderful.....i've been doing it for a long long long time. But....often it is by no means the answer, because the shot dictates it and that particular technique is NOT what I would need in said shot.

The fact is that if your going to be wrong you better be tough....especially here.

Even the guys that Rick doesn't like have posted many things here that are very useful. Explanations. I've never seen such a thing from Rick. Just only spite for anyone informed on here thats not CJ.......oh he hates Neil......big dam surprise....and scott and randy....thats weird.

Really strange when a guy says oh man thanks so much for the information, really looking forward to learning more about S.A.M.

turn the page to 3 years later or so....and all i see out of him is cynical posts, or posts chopping up teachers, or posts on players that says "do whats best for you" "looks good to me" he says NOTHING.....i mean I been waiting for the guy to just explain one thing to back up himself....a video maybe.

All i get is hog wash back. Excuses. ect etc. I dont care if you, he and CJ have ran through a field holding hands.

You can look to CJ for info. You will get some great stuff. Even somethings that sound quackery will still work. Like my shadow method which is joey grays Y method......

BUT Rick is not someoone to look at for such things, I've never seen him provide anything but kind words to seemingly beginner/intermediate posters on here. Says nothing with a bunch or words, and its almost clandestine to get people to nut hug.....for providing and doing nothing except a everyone gets a trophy style....."do whats best for you" oh jesus thanks tony robbins

Also he is the only one of many many of us including pros....that has been here for a while. And no one knows who he is.

Too much shady stuff and accusations come from "him" for me to trust him at all......and i'm a friend to everyone here except JCIN. Only person on the whole got dam forum i never cared for......but then again my view point on JCIN is much better because of Rick.....for i have much respect for the man who goes out and puts himself out there for the world to see.....and does something tangable.

I mean....and all you two have is CJ to nut hug and cry ohhhhhh they bashed on CJ....we have all gotten bashed to no end. Many pros and teachers and regs have gotten bashed come and gone some even stayed.......

but yall weren't here then. you only want to see what is going on now. or what your talking about. Rick doesn't want to read or learn nothing...its obvious. Unless its CJ talking.

What he does on here would be no differient than him going on onepocket.org and taking all that crap to Artie, Freddy, Grady, San Jose Dick, bla bla bla bla bla.......he would last all of 5 seconds and get laughed off the board.....

then he would just come here and say how those guys are just a bunch of head in the sands......

oil got slow.....so i pushed my "pool career"....started the pool program at the countries #9 ranked public school (Louisiana School for Math Science and the Arts....i'm former alumni) bought more equipment for my cue builds (along with many other wood work items and projects) getting "certified" by the PBIA just for the sake of it.....but some *****s hate groups, some *****s only pick people that are grouped....I've got tables to install....and going to do my best to make Glenn proud.

I got questions to answer on here. Oil platforms to fix....

I dont have time to bash Ricks nuts in anymore....it was sort of fun for the couple weeks....but i have better things to do than capitulate with someone so far behind and below me....

I'm not going anywhere but i'm going to go on about my job here and else where as if this Rick fellow, if that is even his real name....doesn't even exist.

He hasn't done anything for the Greyghost to even think he is a real person.

get your butt to work,
Keebie Fleniken II

 

[ENGLISH!]

All I'll say is that "Straight Pool 99" posted some very interesting thoughts in post # 280. Rick then replied in an equally interesting manner. So it looks to me like there are issues that might be open to discussion and debate and we can all learn from.

How many instructors are teaching "Contrived fundamentals, as the term is used by the two respective posters? How many are teaching " Natural fundamentals?" Are Sraight Pool 99 and Rick correct in using the terms "Contrived" and "Natural."

If so; is Straight Pool 99 correct in his assumption that only 1% of players have the talent to succeed with a " Natural stroke." If "Natural stroke" fundamentals are taught to 100 % of students therefore, are 99% of students going to fal with it. If everyone, therefore, is taught " Contrived fundamentals," are the 1% going to be stifled in their developement?

As I said, " Straight Pool's" post in # 280 is very interesting. So is Rick's reply. If these type issues can be explained and discussed, maybe this thread can be turned around and we could all learn something.

Let me say it in another way: I'm pretty sure issues like this are precisely what's at the source of disconnect between Rick and his critics. I've been a member of AZ for 3 years. I probably have had 70 or 80 p.m's with Rick during that time. He's a really cordial guy, even if you disagree. He just has a distain for deception, evasion, obfuscation, and all similar "ions" Talk straight to him and he'll talk straight back to you. It's certainly been the case with me.

Tim,

Did I Thank You for this Post & tell you that it was a Good Post?

If not, Thanks... this is a Good Post.

ALL Best Wishes for You & Your,
Rick

 

[Mr. Bond]

All I'll say is that "Straight Pool 99" posted some very interesting thoughts in post # 280. Rick then replied in an equally interesting manner. So it looks to me like there are issues that might be open to discussion and debate and we can all learn from.

How many instructors are teaching "Contrived fundamentals, as the term is used by the two respective posters? How many are teaching " Natural fundamentals?" Are Sraight Pool 99 and Rick correct in using the terms "Contrived" and "Natural."

If so; is Straight Pool 99 correct in his assumption that only 1% of players have the talent to succeed with a " Natural stroke." If "Natural stroke" fundamentals are taught to 100 % of students therefore, are 99% of students going to fal with it. If everyone, therefore, is taught " Contrived fundamentals," are the 1% going to be stifled in their developement?

As I said, " Straight Pool's" post in # 280 is very interesting. So is Rick's reply. If these type issues can be explained and discussed, maybe this thread can be turned around and we could all learn something.

Let me say it in another way: I'm pretty sure issues like this are precisely what's at the source of disconnect between Rick and his critics. I've been a member of AZ for 3 years. I probably have had 70 or 80 p.m's with Rick during that time. He's a really cordial guy, even if you disagree. He just has a distain for deception, evasion, obfuscation, and all similar "ions" Talk straight to him and he'll talk straight back to you. It's certainly been the case with me.

Technically speaking, there is no such thing as a natural stroke, per say.
Either you yourself "contrived" it, or you emulate/imitate something you learned.
We weren't born with pool sticks in our hands. Stroking a cue is not a natural movement for us.

The ideal situation ( for a student) being an amalgamation of information and techniques best suited to you alone, as ' one size does not fit all'. And most people get this. Especially ( most) instructors. It is no secret.

The ' disconnect' is not the subject matter. The disconnect happens when certain people patronizingly preach to the world that " we don't get it , and refuse to open our minds" as if this is the first time we ever considered more than one source of information .

Then, to take the false-hysteria one step further, apparently there is also a conspiracy out there to keep people dumb, for the sake of selling dvds and lessons, and we're all in on it, or too stupid to notice.

And then, certain conversation participants are labeled as bullies and trolls because they question or disagree with the reasoning behind these ever-so-obvious nuggets of profundity.

And of course CJ, who hasn't been around here lately, apparently has his own personal spokesman now to explain officially why he isn't here, and to expound on why his methods transcend all others, even though we have already been implored by the same person to make that determination on our own.

No the problem is not the subject at all. Its the half-baked attempts to chastise us with something that is already well understood, to people who have better things to do than follow someone else's distracted path of self-discovery and 'rebellion from the mainstream'.

This of course is an opinion only and is not actually making reference to any actual humans living or dead. Any similarities are purely coincidental. So you are not allowed to be offended if it might apply to you, because it's not really you I'm talking about.

 

[Straightpool_99]

All I'll say is that "Straight Pool 99" posted some very interesting thoughts in post # 280. Rick then replied in an equally interesting manner. So it looks to me like there are issues that might be open to discussion and debate and we can all learn from.

How many instructors are teaching "Contrived fundamentals, as the term is used by the two respective posters? How many are teaching " Natural fundamentals?" Are Sraight Pool 99 and Rick correct in using the terms "Contrived" and "Natural."
I used quotation marks around "natural" and "contrived" for a reason! Very few, if any, people learn pool without outside influence. We mimic what we se in other players or on tv. The reason for the word "natural" is that these fundamentals will take less effort to maintain and develop by yourself, than a more "rigid" type of stroke, which will often need an instructor to adjust and look at your stance and stroke. Sadly, these "natural" fundamentals are also more prone to inaccuracies. This is because there are more parts moving, and the timing and alignment of these parts need to be close to perfect to give a good result, but they have a lot of potential when it comes to power and fluidity. It's a beautiful thing when this kind of stroke is truely working.[/I]
If so; is Straight Pool 99 correct in his assumption that only 1% of players have the talent to succeed with a " Natural stroke." If "Natural stroke" fundamentals are taught to 100 % of students therefore, are 99% of students going to fal with it. If everyone, therefore, is taught " Contrived fundamentals," are the 1% going to be stifled in their developement?
That is not a correct reading of my post at all. The gifted 1% will be able to succeed using almost any kind of fundamentals, as long as they are not too outrageous. Only English claims that teaching them something other than the typical self taught fundamentals will stifle their development. I'm not entirely convinced that this is true, though I do see some potential disadvantages with some of the elements of these techniques. but there is also a chance that the "natural" cueists can benefit from more refined fundamentals. The conditions of modern, fast tables has meant that there is less need for power, and thus a stroke with only slight limitations might be enough to get you all the way to the top, where before you wouldn't stand a chance. Besides, some people can generate tremendous power and feel with the so called contrived fundamentals, so for them the limitations are non-existing. Talent will mostly prevail, either way.

The non-gifted, for lack of a better term, will need more help to play well because they lack the ability to compensate for, or limit inaccuracies in their delivery. Thus the "contrived" fundamentals can be a better choice, for some of them. Notice the quotation marks, please, as this is English!' word and I only use it in this particular context. I would not refer to them this way outside of the context of this conversation.

As I said, " Straight Pool's" post in # 280 is very interesting. So is Rick's reply. If these type issues can be explained and discussed, maybe this thread can be turned around and we could all learn something.

Let me say it in another way: I'm pretty sure issues like this are precisely what's at the source of disconnect between Rick and his critics. I've been a member of AZ for 3 years. I probably have had 70 or 80 p.m's with Rick during that time. He's a really cordial guy, even if you disagree. He just has a distain for deception, evasion, obfuscation, and all similar "ions" Talk straight to him and he'll talk straight back to you. It's certainly been the case with me.

English and I disagree on some subject and agree on others. He has not been hostile to me on those occations where we disagreed and the pm exchanges have been cordial. He has, however been relentless in his critique of instructors of all kinds, with maybe 2 exceptions here on Azb. "Relentless" meaning that he will not simply state his opinion and let it go, but go after them over and over again, replying to every troll post thrown in his direction, making him a target for even more such posts. Make no mistake, that behavior is what has led to a lot of the "disconnect" on here.

Some people have been equally relentless in their attacks on him, to be fair. That has led to a negative spiral, where threads with good content quickly go out of control, resulting in bannings and general frustration. This is a totally avoidable negative trend that could be easily curtailed by some restraint on both sides, but it seems that is not likely to happen. Which is why there is a wave of bannings every couple of months, and lots of good content in threads get locked away, never to be seen again.

 

[greyghost]

Technically speaking, there is no such thing as a natural stroke, per say.
Either you yourself "contrived" it, or you emulate/imitate something you learned.
We weren't born with pool sticks in our hands. Stroking a cue is not a natural movement for us.

The ideal situation ( for a student) being an amalgamation of information and techniques best suited to you alone, as ' one size does not fit all'. And most people get this. Especially ( most) instructors. It is no secret.

The ' disconnect' is not the subject matter. The disconnect happens when certain people patronizingly preach to the world that " we don't get it , and refuse to open our minds" as if this is the first time we ever considered more than one source of information .

Then, to take the false-hysteria one step further, apparently there is also a conspiracy out there to keep people dumb, for the sake of selling dvds and lessons, and we're all in on it, or too stupid to notice.

And then, certain conversation participants are labeled as bullies and trolls because they question or disagree with the reasoning behind these ever-so-obvious nuggets of profundity.

And of course CJ, who hasn't been around here lately, apparently has his own personal spokesman now to explain officially why he isn't here, and to expound on why his methods transcend all others, even though we have already been implored by the same person to make that determination on our own.

No the problem is not the subject at all. Its the half-baked attempts to chastise us with something that is already well understood, to people who have better things to do than follow someone else's distracted path of self-discovery and 'rebellion from the mainstream'.

This of course is an opinion only and is not actually making reference to any actual humans living or dead. Any similarities are purely coincidental. So you are not allowed to be offended if it might apply to you, because it's not really you I'm talking about.

tis a fine fictional piece you pen there Mr. Bond...fine indeed sir

cheers mate,
Greyghost

 

[ENGLISH!]

All I'll say is that "Straight Pool 99" posted some very interesting thoughts in post # 280. Rick then replied in an equally interesting manner. So it looks to me like there are issues that might be open to discussion and debate and we can all learn from.

How many instructors are teaching "Contrived fundamentals, as the term is used by the two respective posters? How many are teaching " Natural fundamentals?" Are Sraight Pool 99 and Rick correct in using the terms "Contrived" and "Natural."

If so; is Straight Pool 99 correct in his assumption that only 1% of players have the talent to succeed with a " Natural stroke." If "Natural stroke" fundamentals are taught to 100 % of students therefore, are 99% of students going to fal with it. If everyone, therefore, is taught " Contrived fundamentals," are the 1% going to be stifled in their developement?

As I said, " Straight Pool's" post in # 280 is very interesting. So is Rick's reply. If these type issues can be explained and discussed, maybe this thread can be turned around and we could all learn something.

Let me say it in another way: I'm pretty sure issues like this are precisely what's at the source of disconnect between Rick and his critics. I've been a member of AZ for 3 years. I probably have had 70 or 80 p.m's with Rick during that time. He's a really cordial guy, even if you disagree. He just has a distain for deception, evasion, obfuscation, and all similar "ions" Talk straight to him and he'll talk straight back to you. It's certainly been the case with me.

Tim,

I am rather sure that I also have a disdain for arrogance, condescension, & self inflated egos too.

What rather amazes me are the dozen or so that speak for the thousands upon thousands of members of AZB & then also speak for the thousands upon thousands of visitors to AZB.

Remember Tim... always consider just who is saying what & what possible motives &/or agenda that they might have.

Hand a pitch fork to a boy & tell him to stick it in a bale of hay & I doubt that he will swing it like a baseball bat. He'll probably do what comes naturally.

All Best Wishes to You & Yours,
Rick

 

[DaveK]

Tim,

I am rather sure that I also have a disdain for arrogance, condescension, & self inflated egos too.

:thud:

Dave