What Will Happen To All The Aging Pros

[ccriderone]

ccriderone - The last think I want to do is get into another discussion with Grady about his memory or facts like we did on OnePocket.org - BUT -
What makes you think Grady is the "End All Authority" on what happened & or on what should be done to avoid the pitfalls of playing OR Hustling POOL.

I didn't choose to "Get A Job" OR "Collect A Paycheck".
I started an Advertising Company - www.communitymagnets.com - from an idea I had in the middle of the night. I started with $0 investment and "Made It Happen" over 14 years ago and now I create jobs and sign commission checks instead.

Now I'm not trying to "Throw Flowers At Myself", but I am simply suggesting that instead of taking someone’s opinion "As Gospel" - You get a much larger degree of input on the subject than JUST GRADY'S.

TY & GL

*********************************************
Slow down now, where did I say Grady was the authority on this, I just said ask him, he has a opinion like you or me. He knows a lot, I am sure there are those who know more than him. Long term gambling is a dead end street and almost all are doomed in any form of betting on sports, casino games, bookies and for sure, pool. Perhaps we can agree on this.

 

[OldHasBeen]

Yes, We Agree!

*********************************************
Slow down now, where did I say Grady was the authority on this, I just said ask him, he has a opinion like you or me. He knows a lot, I am sure there are those who know more than him. Long term gambling is a dead end street and almost all are doomed in any form of betting on sports, casino games, bookies and for sure, pool. Perhaps we can agree on this.

ccriderone - You say,
Long term gambling is a dead end street and almost all are doomed in any form of betting on sports, casino games, bookies and for sure, pool.

Yes, We Agree! - IN A WAY!
I agree on the concept but NOT on the terminology.
I have stated MANY times that there is NO relationship in - Gambling on anything you don't control - and - BETTING on ones skill at Pool.
Gambling IS STUPID!
BETTING on me playing Pool is not only SMART but over 95% of the time it is almost "The Nuts".

TY & GL
Ps. - Don't get me wrong. I have the utmost respect for Grady and all that he is doing for the game. I think he may be one of only a few who have a handle on what it is going to take to get our game to the next level.

 

[wayne]

Maybe if I could change one thing about my past, - it MAY BE - the decision to not put forth my best effort in major tournaments.
I was always convinced that more money could be made by setting an image in the minds of all the spectators and reaping the rewards while playing off the "Lemon" that they had witnessed.
I'm sorry if this offends anyone BUT where else can you go and have that many people watch you play at a level under yourself and be sure that this the way you will play while playing them for their CASH.
Now that is brutally honest and maybe too harsh for some readers, BUT it -
"W A S" The way I had always played in tournaments.
I learned and developed this M.O. way back in Johnston City when I was 19 or so.

I can't tell whether you are bragging, complaining, or just explaining. So basically you were a low-life con man who suckered people out of their money by dumping in tournaments to give false impressions. Sounds like it was a wonderful life and an accomplishment you could be proud of MAYBE. Kind of like a good 3 card Monty player, let those suckers step right up and have their greed do them in.

It kind of rubs me the wrong way because it may give players the idea that this is the way to go, whereas, it is a big part of why pool is seen in a bad light. I have seen these type of con men and dumpers take advantage of honest poolplayers and have probably caused a number of people to give up the game. It is too bad there is not some kind of way to ban the lowlifes for life.

Anyway, it sounds like you cleaned up your act and hopefully you are leading a more honest life MAYBE.

Wayne

 

[drivermaker]

I can't tell whether you are bragging, complaining, or just explaining. So basically you were a low-life con man who suckered people out of their money by dumping in tournaments to give false impressions. Sounds like it was a wonderful life and an accomplishment you could be proud of MAYBE. Kind of like a good 3 card Monty player, let those suckers step right up and have their greed do them in.

It kind of rubs me the wrong way because it may give players the idea that this is the way to go, whereas, it is a big part of why pool is seen in a bad light. I have seen these type of con men and dumpers take advantage of honest poolplayers and have probably caused a number of people to give up the game. It is too bad there is not some kind of way to ban the lowlifes for life.

Anyway, it sounds like you cleaned up your act and hopefully you are leading a more honest life MAYBE.

Wayne

As the Lone Ranger said to Silver..."Whooooa Horsey....Whooooa! I can see this going straight on the road to hell between the two of you. First of all, I know both of your backgrounds...have talked to each of you in private on PM's...am exactly the same age as OHB and came up during that era...and it's time for me to throw out my opinion.

What we have here are two guys that took up the game at different times of their lives and are at exact opposite ends of the spectrum when you did, or do what you do BASED ON THE ERA.

Wayne...you took up the game, as I understand it, at 45 or 46 and are now in your mid? 50's and have been one of VERY FEW that I know of who took the game up that late in life who got good enough to win a tournament and experience success at this game. And when I say success, I don't know how much that really is in tournament finishes or gambling. You went about your life in the traditional fashion of...going to school first and gaining an education...getting married as well as having kids...going through employment your entire life to gain success in business, child rearing, home buying, investments, etc., and THEN getting into pool somewhere in the 90's. Your perspective on everything, along with the economy and times, is totally different than when OHB or I got involved with the game.

I don't know when OHB started playing pool, but I did in 1960 at the age of 14. And when you're that young and the neurons are firing great in your brain, you can pick something up like pool and learn a lot faster. By the time I was 18 years old I played some really damn good pool, and I'm sure he did too. At that time for me, it was hope you didn't go to Viet Nam and get killed like all of your friends...go to work in a goddamn steel mill and slave the rest of your life for a paltry wage during the hot summer and freezing winter...go to college...or gamble. Later in the 60's and early 70's it was a time of bucking the establishment...drugs...sex...and being free like Easy Rider.

Depending what part of the country you grew up in and what your options were...pool and gambling was a pretty damn good route to take. When you grow up in the pool rooms and on the street, you learn real quick about the hard ways to work and the easier ways. Hell, I played real good pool, but I certainly wasn't always the BEST shooter in the house. I would also guess that I wasn't as good as OHB...but you could still earn a decent amount of money if you were smart, and I damn well did staying under the radar by NOT playing the top dog in the house to boost my ego and walk out like Billy The Kid every night in a gunfight. There were PLENTY of dudes in pool rooms with lesser skills that still had the money and loved to bet it up. You just had to know what to look for and make the right match with some strong woofing at times. That's just the way things worked. It wasn't about tournaments and seeing your name in Inside Pool, Billiards Digest, or somewhere on the internet.

There WEREN'T all of the nickel and dime tournaments that go on in all of these pool rooms across the country every night or weekend. You just went where players hung out and saw who went for some cash. And you got it any way you damn well could...and the reason was...it always beat your options. At some point in life, you realize that there really ARE other options that can be and ARE more lucrative and reliable than pool, so you make the move. Some just made the move at different times in their lives...and some NEVER made the move and just stayed entrenched in it forever.

I don't see it as being a low life con artist...it was more a sign of the times and life options...and whether you realized them fully enough or not, not to mention the #1 motivator for ALL of us on this planet...SURVIVAL!!!

 

[OldHasBeen]

Thanks DriverMaker for all the typing. I could add.....

I can see this going straight on the road to hell between the two of you.
I don't see it as being a low life con artist...it was more a sign of the times and life options...and whether you realized them fully enough or not, not to mention the #1 motivator for ALL of us on this planet...SURVIVAL!!!

DriverMaker - Your correct in your assumptions of my reply.
If not for your interjection, I would have had to type my ass off.
I'm also glad that I now know more about where Wayne is coming from.
Life's choices are often dictated by the options available.
I have NO regrets and offer NO apologies.
I did it My Way & Wayne did it his way!
As the St. Louie, Louie - OHB Poster points out, there was two different avenues that could have been taken by a good pool player back in the '60's.

TY & GL

 

[Tbeaux]

I did it My Way & Wayne did it his way!

TY & GL

Ummm does that statement mean you both did it Frank Sinatras way? J/K

Terry

 

[cuesmith]

A few weeks a go, Steve Lillis and I spoke about this same subject. As a warrior of the road, let me tell you that there is a fine line between survival and complete failure. The survival aspect of it is what kept most of us out there longer than others. Does anyone have anything to show for it? Not really. My life didn't change until I started getting an education and directing my energy into different directions that would earn me more money than pool. That's just a fact. Guys like Steve Lillis and myself were gifted in the art of "staying under the radar" so to speak, but remember... if you win $20K off a hit in Pittsburgh on Saturday, someone is waiting for you in Cleveland to get some of it into his pocket. The myth is that there is an infinite amount of money to be made out there and thats just not true. Guys make the mistake of chasing money - thinking that when they get a certain amount of money things will be "perfect". That would be true if these players knew what to do with their money when they got it. Most of them piss it up a rope. The problem is manifested in a lack of discipline, wisdom, and knowledge, which makes it hard for me not to bring up Don Willis - who though he was a gambler - knew how to manage his money and make it work for him, instead of him working for it. Here is a link to a great site that charts the life and times of "The Cincinatti Kid".

"The Cincinatti Kid" Don Willis

uhhhh I hate to tall you but "Cincinnati" it the proper spelling! lol Don't want to be a nit, but it's my home town! lol

just more hot air!


Sherm

 

[ccriderone]

uhhhh I hate to tall you but "Cincinnati" it the proper spelling! lol Don't want to be a nit, but it's my home town! lol

just more hot air!


Sherm

***************************************
Let me recap, we cant spell\
we cant gamble
we are broke
whats next?
I am like you boys, I am clue less

 

[wayne]

As the Lone Ranger said to Silver..."Whooooa Horsey....Whooooa! I can see this going straight on the road to hell between the two of you. First of all, I know both of your backgrounds...have talked to each of you in private on PM's...am exactly the same age as OHB and came up during that era...and it's time for me to throw out my opinion.

What we have here are two guys that took up the game at different times of their lives and are at exact opposite ends of the spectrum when you did, or do what you do BASED ON THE ERA.

Thanks for being the voice of reason. I don't have much of a problem with what OHB did since he didn't do it to me and it is in the past (hopefully). However, the same type of scams still go on all of the time in pool. People setting other people up by convincing them that they cannot play. Strong players dumping in tournaments or disguising their speed so they can hustle. Cutting up backers. The list goes on and on. He did what he did and he has no regrets which is fine by me. My problem was the way it was written it sounded like bragging about his con and making it sound like it is the way to do things. If the opportunity arose now to con someone or to be deceptive or pull a hustle, would he do it? It sounds like he would. If not and he has learned by the error of his ways and is an honorable poolplayer looking for a fair game and willing to let the outcome be decided by skill then I respect him.

I am an action player and I do quite well this way as well as in tournaments but I don't do it by trying to get people to believe I am not as good as I am. I just step up to the plate and even if I am giving up the nuts I am going to play my heart out to outrun them. I never want the dead nuts and have even on a few occasions had to argue with players to take a bigger spot because their egos were getting in the way of common sense.

I would go out of my way to promote this way of doing things and would recommend that people stay away from the con men.

Wayne

 

[B.J.the bandit]

Keep This a while B.J

I can't tell whether you are bragging, complaining, or just explaining. So basically you were a low-life con man who suckered people out of their money by dumping in tournaments to give false impressions. Sounds like it was a wonderful life and an accomplishment you could be proud of MAYBE. Kind of like a good 3 card Monty player, let those suckers step right up and have their greed do them in.

It kind of rubs me the wrong way because it may give players the idea that this is the way to go, whereas, it is a big part of why pool is seen in a bad light. I have seen these type of con men and dumpers take advantage of honest poolplayers and have probably caused a number of people to give up the game. It is too bad there is not some kind of way to ban the lowlifes for life.

Anyway, it sounds like you cleaned up your act and hopefully you are leading a more honest life MAYBE.

Wayne

Please read this when your 65 again' ya', just ain't seasoned yet!MY, MY, MY,!!! B,J,Spivey

 

[Travis Bickle]

Uhh, snooker is slower, more complex and many would say more boring than 9-ball, yet, it is the most watched sporting event in England, more viewers than soccer. Steve Davis made 19 million one year off winnings and endorsements and a number of the stars of snooker are millionaires.
Explain that???

Wayne

This brings up a cultural difference more than anything else. England is primarily an INDOOR country. Besides golf and "football," most of what interests them transpires indoors, because of the crappy weather. Typical summer forecast there: "occasional showers with passing moments of brightness." They had to conquer half the world to be able to schedule a picnic.

But with the U.S. being an OUTDOOR country, pool's always going to be a hard sell. Can't believe this big-time poker fad can last, either.
Just one thought on the aging pros ... maybe the pool community could eventually get itself together enough to do something along the lines of what actors have done. Many years ago, I worked in an Actors' Home ... which was essentially a assisted-living facility for old actors. Most of them were people almost nobody could remember, but they'd worked in their time, got their union cards, and when they got old there was the Actors' Fund for them to lean on.

These people are more like poolplayers than you might think. Many of them were dropouts who left little towns for Broadway or Hollywood, then spent most of their time and money learning their craft rather than taking up a "square" job. They, too, if they are among the vast majority who don't make it, often end up as 50-year-old waiters with booze and drug problems and some great stories ...

It would be a great thing if the successful people in the pool world could start something like the Actors' Fund ... and don't Negro League players and old NFLers have organizations to help them out?

 

[chefjeff]

(snip)

I didn't choose to "Get A Job" OR "Collect A Paycheck".
I started an Advertising Company - www.communitymagnets.com - from an idea I had in the middle of the night. I started with $0 investment and "Made It Happen" over 14 years ago and now I create jobs and sign commission checks instead.

Now I'm not trying to "Throw Flowers At Myself", but I am simply suggesting that instead of taking someone’s opinion "As Gospel" - You get a much larger degree of input on the subject than JUST GRADY'S.

TY & GL

Now, that's what I'm talking about! Nice job, OHB. Everyone....go to his website and see what he's done. No difference than watching him shoot a shot and learning from that.

Any aspiring pool player who develops a marketing system like Old has Beens that brings him/her passive, consistant income has a giant advantage on the road. Imagine being able to play whenever one wants AND HAVE THE MONEY TO SUSTAIN THAT LIFESTYLE. Now, hold that vision long enough and strong enough and the how-to will come.

I also created a way to earn money while I'm not actively working. I quit my Post Office job in 1986 (what??...you quit the PO with eleven years in?...you fool!) and haven't looked back. Jobs, as great as they are, have a way of trapping someone in golden handcuffs that can put limits on the amount of happiness available. Business creation has a way of unleashing someone unto a world of growth.

The problem with most is they think they don't have what it takes to build a business that pays while they sleep. It's very possible and I'd recommend it as a great foundation for anyone who is out there trying to make money in the pool world.

Jeff Livingston

 

[OldHasBeen]

Wayne, What is, "is" & What was can't be changed!

If the opportunity arose now to con someone or to be deceptive or pull a hustle, would he do it?

Wayne

Wayne - YES, in a Heartbeat!​

In Business - "NEVER", but in the Pool World - "YES"!
That IS me. That is what I am & always will be when it comes to Pool. I hustle pool so as to be successful. I would also NEVER hustle or deceive in Business, for the same reason. In the long run, it is the only way to be successful.
You also said - "I am an action player and I do quite well this way as well as in tournaments but I don't do it by trying to get people to believe I am not as good as I am. I just step up to the plate and even if I am giving up the nuts I am going to play my heart out to outrun them. I never want the dead nuts and have even on a few occasions had to argue with players to take a bigger spot because their egos were getting in the way of common sense".

I am also NOT knocking this way of playing. The fellow who I am closest to "In Pool" is exactly like you. - Terry, (one of the owners of The Break), where I play daily. He would much rather have a little "The Worst" of a match and "Outrun It". He has been known to quit a game he was winning at and tell the opponent that the game needed to be adjusted. He said it wasn't fair and changed the game in favor of the opponent. He has also "Staked" a broke player to play when he didn't want to for $20 a game. After a couple of hours, and they were even, Terry wanted to raise the bet but the player couldn't figure out WHY. You see, Terry was the opponent of the player he was staking.
This all goes to prove what others have been saying.
You see, Terry has always been a good player and we have known each other for over 40 years. We both played in the same poolrooms when we were young men.
WHAT'S THE REASON FOR THE MAJOR DIFFERENCES IN OUR OUTLOOK IN POOL"?
Terry has always either had a job & or ran a business. Like me, he started with $0. He has always known how to "Make A Buck" buying (almost everything & anything) & selling stuff.
I DIDN'T HAVE OR DEVELOP THAT TALENT. Instead, I "Hit The Road" when I was 19. That was 1965. A very different world and Pool was a very different game. There were hardly any tournaments available to the Midwest and the Bar leagues didn't start for years later. I honed & learned my trade "On The Road". I was at the Johnston City tournament every year. I watched and learned which players were making the $ and which players were always going broke and blowing any substantial winnings on stupid stuff.
FOR ME - THE CHOICE WAS EASY!
Now Wayne, I am NOT advocating this theory or lifestyle for today’s young players. First of all - It isn't possible anymore! Back then I could go into almost ANY bar that had a table and figure out how to get the Ca$h. If even I were to try that today, I would be told - Sure - As soon as the league play is over and we close in an hour after that.
I "Hit The Road" in a '54 Ford that I could fill up for $6. There is a reason Motel 6 and Super 8 Motels have their names. THAT WAS THE COST OF THEIR ROOMS.

WAYNE - I THINK IT JUST ALL JUST BOILS DOWN TO "DIFFERENT STROKES FOR DIFFERENT FOLKS" - AND - WE BOTH ARE JUST GOING TO HAVE TO "AGREE TO DIS-AGREE"!

TY & GL

 

[ccriderone]

Some go out hard, Greenleaf ended up drunk in a gutter and died at 50 from drugs and booze. They tossed him in a paupers grave with no head stone.

Fatty dies broke and ended up going into dives selling play me for $15 and I'll give you a piece of paper that says you did.

Detroit Whitey ended up sitting on corner in dark glasses pretending to be blind begging for handouts.

Most end up sitting behind the counter in some dump pool hall or pawn shop for minimum wage.

Louie put a gun in his mouth and pulled the trigger at 50, booze drove him nuts.

Most pick up some kind of job along the way and still play road man on the side or on the net, even though that life is gone.

Many totally destroy their bodys and Nurological systems from burning the candle at both ends by gambling all night long and taking speed, coke, what ever to stay up and alert. It's like running your car engine all day and night long at 7000 rpm, it wears out faster. You see top players begin to shake when they pull the cue back, thats the first sign of impending doom. They usually have a stroke, Mosconi had a blood vessle blow up in his brain, took him out of the game, from speed.
Some become crippled with the shakes and become indigent wards of the state where the clinics take care of them and put them in some sub standard old peoples home where they live out their final days with the bottom sections of losers in our society.

Most of them, go out hard, go out bad.

God lets the good die young, old pool hustlers he keeps around for a long time.

 

[Blackjack]

Some go out hard, Greenleaf ended up drunk in a gutter and died at 50 from drugs and booze. They tossed him in a paupers grave with no head stone.

Fatty dies broke and ended up going into dives selling play me for $15 and I'll give you a piece of paper that says you did.

Detroit Whitey ended up sitting on corner in dark glasses pretending to be blind begging for handouts.

Most end up sitting behind the counter in some dump pool hall or pawn shop for minimum wage.

Louie put a gun in his mouth and pulled the trigger at 50, booze drove him nuts.

Most pick up some kind of job along the way and still play road man on the side or on the net, even though that life is gone.

Many totally destroy their bodys and Nurological systems from burning the candle at both ends by gambling all night long and taking speed, coke, what ever to stay up and alert. It's like running your car engine all day and night long at 7000 rpm, it wears out faster. You see top players begin to shake when they pull the cue back, thats the first sign of impending doom. They usually have a stroke, Mosconi had a blood vessle blow up in his brain, took him out of the game, from speed.
Some become crippled with the shakes and become indigent wards of the state where the clinics take care of them and put them in some sub standard old peoples home where they live out their final days with the bottom sections of losers in our society.

Most of them, go out hard, go out bad.

God lets the good die young, old pool hustlers he keeps around for a long time.

and some overcome the odds despite being looked down upon by others.

 

[OldHasBeen]

You are "Way Out Of Line" & just plain WRONG on at least two counts.

Some go out hard, Greenleaf ended up drunk in a gutter and died at 50 from drugs and booze. They tossed him in a paupers grave with no head stone.

Fatty dies broke and ended up going into dives selling play me for $15 and I'll give you a piece of paper that says you did.

Detroit Whitey ended up sitting on corner in dark glasses pretending to be blind begging for handouts.

Most end up sitting behind the counter in some dump pool hall or pawn shop for minimum wage.

Louie put a gun in his mouth and pulled the trigger at 50, booze drove him nuts.

Most pick up some kind of job along the way and still play road man on the side or on the net, even though that life is gone.

Many totally destroy their bodys and Nurological systems from burning the candle at both ends by gambling all night long and taking speed, coke, what ever to stay up and alert. It's like running your car engine all day and night long at 7000 rpm, it wears out faster. You see top players begin to shake when they pull the cue back, thats the first sign of impending doom. They usually have a stroke, Mosconi had a blood vessle blow up in his brain, took him out of the game, from speed.
Some become crippled with the shakes and become indigent wards of the state where the clinics take care of them and put them in some sub standard old peoples home where they live out their final days with the bottom sections of losers in our society.

Most of them, go out hard, go out bad.

God lets the good die young, old pool hustlers he keeps around for a long time.

CCRIDERONE - #1 - Louie was 41 & didn't kill himself.
#2 - Fatty didn't die broke.
"I'm too old - To Die Young" - AND - "I ain't shaken, yet"!
WANNA PLAY SOME?

TY & GL

 

[Boro Nut]

Uhh, snooker is slower, more complex and many would say more boring than 9-ball, yet, it is the most watched sporting event in England, more viewers than soccer.

Not even close. A lot of people like snooker. Some of us may even love it. But football is what England is all about. Towns define themselves by their club. Televisions are not brought into every shop, office, and factory to prevent people stopping off work to watch England play snooker. The nation grinds to a halt when England play. People do not cover their bodies with tattoos of their favourite snooker players or name their sons after the entire cup winning snooker team. 50,000 Liverpudlians travelled to Istanbul recently and returned festooned in glory. Not one of them would swap it for a maximum break at the Crucible and the coin that goes with it. When England play Germany the unofficial national anthem is “Two World Wars and One World Cup, Doo Dah, Doo Dah”. It is the world cup that we are by far the most proud of.

Betting is not the reason either. Betting is part of the culture. You can bet on any sporting event, including football. Only horse and greyhound racing are based on the betting. People watch snooker because they appreciate the skill and enjoy it. 18 million stopped up to the small hours to watch Dennis Taylor beat Steve Davis because it was a gripping game and we all wanted to see Davis get dicked for a change. We only like him now he is crap.

The defining moment for snooker was BBC 2 introducing colour television and the one-frame Pot Black series. Snooker is made for colour television. Anybody can see where the blue is. I would have no idea what colour the 5 ball was.

Boro Nut

 

[wayne]

Wayne - yes, in a Heartbeat!In Business - "NEVER", but in the Pool World - "YES"!
That IS me. That is what I am & always will be when it comes to Pool. I hustle pool so as to be successful. I would also NEVER hustle or deceive in Business, for the same reason. In the long run, it is the only way to be successful....

WAYNE - I THINK IT JUST ALL JUST BOILS DOWN TO "DIFFERENT STROKES FOR DIFFERENT FOLKS" - AND - WE BOTH ARE JUST GOING TO HAVE TO "AGREE TO DIS-AGREE"![/B]

TY & GL

Well, I can certainly understand someone hustling to stay alive but now that you are a successful businessman you no longer have that excuse for continuing to hustle and deceive. Of course some people can't change because it would take a conscious decision and a little bit of effort and a little bit of class. I understand that also. I see all the two-bit hustlers in the poolhalls I frequent, and the whiners that there is no action because everyone knows they are low-life hustlers and avoid them like the plague. It never occurs to them either to get honest and straight because that is who they are. I've lived both worlds and it is much saner to be straight up no matter what excuses or rationalizations you have for being the other way. Try it you might like it. You can thank me later.

Wayne

 

[LastTwo]

You show me one road player that you would call sucessful! They got to have something else going for them. A woman, inherited cash, sponsor, a business, or stakehorse. You just plain ain't going to make it man. Just take a look at em.
Purdman

Don't forget about Mars Callahan! He made over $500,000 hustling pool and tournaments

 

[Purdman]

Don't forget about Mars Callahan! He made over $500,000 hustling pool and tournaments

Cheese: "Do you play and have you played in any tournaments and where?"
Mars: "No, I actually was never a tournament player.

You need to get your facts straight NN. The guy was never a road player. That is what this thread was about. Jeezz!
You feel better now.
Purdman