What would YOU do?

[nfty9er]

Sorry but I disagree

Most places do have tables for bangers and mostly 8' tables or coin-ops, but it would be a waste to cover any 9' tables with bad cloth in this area where decent rooms have a waiting list by 7pm.

I too have been in this business for about 3 decades. Not owning rooms, but managing them. I am also a table mech., I have even built rooms (complete ground up) that have made the cover of P & B Mag., and also played most Pro Tours since the early 80's........ So I believe I am also qualified

But this isn't a mine is bigger than yours contest...... The bottom line is that the IPT offers very little if anything to a room owner to even answer their calls.

Why in heck would it be a waste to cover 9 footers with what you call "bad cloth". Who the hell said it is bad cloth. Just doesn't play like others. I played on that "bad cloth" all my life until Simonis and Championship came along. I liked it fine as I like all cloth if is in shape. I just adjust.
For someone who has been around and should know better, why would you advise someone to spend Simonis money on all tables when most of your customers are people just out having a good time and don't know the difference but the cloth still plays good just not as fast. That makes no sense. Like I said, I have 20 tables, 12 of which are Championship, the other 9 footers are cheaper cloth not worse. What does a decent room have to do with it.. You base a decent room on if "all their tables" are covered in Simonis? Wow I am glad you don't live near me. I sure as hell wouldn't hire you. I like people with common sense.

 

[Ruthless]

Why in heck would it be a waste to cover 9 footers with what you call "bad cloth". Who the hell said it is bad cloth. Just doesn't play like others. I played on that "bad cloth" all my life until Simonis and Championship came along. I liked it fine as I like all cloth if is in shape. I just adjust.
For someone who has been around and should know better, why would you advise someone to spend Simonis money on all tables when most of your customers are people just out having a good time and don't know the difference but the cloth still plays good just not as fast. That makes no sense. Like I said, I have 20 tables, 12 of which are Championship, the other 9 footers are cheaper cloth not worse. What does a decent room have to do with it.. You base a decent room on if "all their tables" are covered in Simonis? Wow I am glad you don't live near me. I sure as hell wouldn't hire you. I like people with common sense.

1st - I wouldn't buy anything associated with the IPT until they come clean (even cloth for beaters).

2nd - You couldn't afford to hire me, I'm 46 and retired very comfortably as an absentee owner of a non-pool related business.

It's not wise to throw out personal attacks at anyone when unprovoked, it can bite you in the azz.

 

[ironman]

First it doesn't make any difference, they are resuseable for your business or resellable and no big deal.
Second, in the letters and phone calls I got from them to help promote the IPT not once have they mentioned those requirments. And how can you require something that is not available yet. And you just don't get it, using the cloth and installing it is no more expense than the regular cloth I use already on other tables.
So go back to your joint, or read my posts.

I didn't say you couldn't use the cloth, who would want to.

I don't smoke!!

I have read your post, for the last time.

 

[Craig Fales]

Those items are part of every day operations which are bought or replaced all the time. From a business sense that is not a ton of money and all useable equipment or resellable. Big deal.

Probably can't sell what you haven't received...
________

 

[jay helfert]

Big Deal? Nfty, you must have never owned a pool room. Take an average sized room with 18 tables. To recover all of them is minimum $4,500 and well over 5K if you use Simoniz. Eighteen new sets of balls, minimum $1,250 up to $1,500. Good balls ain't cheap. Good racks are about $10-15 each, no big deal. And a box of chalk about $25.

So we're talking six to seven thousand here. Any pool room owner I know would consider that real money. If you're making $1,500 to 2K a week running the place, that's almost a months earnings. Just wanted to give you the perspective from someone who has paid these bills more than a few times.[/QUOTE

Jay, there are a few things wrong about your response.
1. I own a pool room and have for 30 years.
2. The idea that I would recloth 18 tables is ludicrous. However I would do 8 since I probably could find 8 that needed it at any one time or if not sacrifice the couple of months I would do it anyway. So basically it is not costing me anymore than usual.
3. Balls are not available and I do not believe are required to be used at this time. Even if they were they are useable if needed or resellable. Everything sells eventually no matter what it is and I can prove it.
4. Sardo racks not required, regualar racks I have tons of. In fact I probably have enough Sardo racks to get through a tournament with 4 people. Ha?
5. If I were to recloth 18 tables with Simoni, which I wouldn't, I changed to Championship, it would cost me 4500 not well over 5000.
6. You know you never recloth all tables at once.
So Jay as a former room owner, you know there are ways to get around a lot of costs. You have done it so please don't make me look like a fool and I don't know what I am talking about.
I will say it again, not that I want to until I see it is all going to work out, but it is no big deal and will not cost me what you are trying to tell me in your exaggerated b.s.

Thank you for the polite response. I have no desire to make you look like a fool. You will have to do that on your own. I do not know what the requirements are for hosting an IPT event as I had no interest whatsoever.

I was only pointing out that there is an expense to recover tables and buy new sets of balls, that can be considerable for the average room owner. It appears that you are quite aware of these costs. I don't think I mentioned anything about Sardo racks, so what was your point here.

Since we seem to nearly agree on the costs involved, I not sure what b.s. you are talking about. Please explain. And yes, as a room owner, if I am asked to recover eight tables and replace the balls, that IS a big deal to me. Especially if they don't need it at the time, and it is only to meet the requirements of a one weekend event.

As a fellow room owner (I've owned four), quite often there have been requests of me to host events and sponsor them as well. I'm sure you have had the same experience. I weigh the costs of hosting (sponsoring) against the benefits the event will bring to my room. From the looks of the present Qualifiers for the IPT, I see no real benefit in hosting one of these events, at no cost.

 

[NYC cue dude]

nfty9er,

any room owner, who is presently in the "know", regarding the ipt's non payment crisis, and willingly participates in hosting a qualifier, is complicit (imo) in the perpetuation of this scam against all ipt hopefuls.

Why any room owner would put their good names and reputations on the line (and folks, that is essentially what you would be doing), for an entity fraught with as many problems as the ipt currently has, is beyond me.

As a pool player, and frequent customer of many nationwide poolrooms, i would have no problem calling for/supporting a global boycott against all room owners willing to associate themselves professionally with the ipt while there still exists so many outstanding unpaid debts.

randy goldwater

 

[ironman]

nfty9er,

any room owner, who is presently in the "know", regarding the ipt's non payment crisis, and willingly participates in hosting a qualifier, is complicit (imo) in the perpetuation of this scam against all ipt hopefuls.

Why any room owner would put their good names and reputations on the line (and folks, that is essentially what you would be doing), for an entity fraught with as many problems as the ipt currently has, is beyond me.

As a pool player, and frequent customer of many nationwide poolrooms, i would have no problem calling for/supporting a global boycott against all room owners willing to associate themselves professionally with the ipt while there still exists so many outstanding unpaid debts.

randy goldwater

Sadly, you are so right, but, will never happen.

 

[jjinfla]

Talk about a rock and a hard place.

You want pool rooms to boycot the IPT? Then the players would surely blame the pool room owners for the demise of the IPT.

Players entering the qualifiers most likely all know the problems the IPT is having so if they decide to enter a qualifier that is their decision made after they assessed the situation.

The IPT did pay out $500,000 for the Reno tournament. At least that is what I have read here. That still is more than the total payout at the US Open. And most likely the total of all tournaments in the USA for this year, excluding IPT tournaments.

Of course on the negative side they still owe $2,500,000. That sure is a lot of money.

Jake

 

[Southpaw]

No, I wouldn't. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but I can't see a qualifier generating very much revenue. Maybe if it was full of great players like some of the earlier qualifiers but how can 2 to 4 people showing up generate enough revenue to make any difference at the end of the day?

Quite honestly, at this point...if I were in the pool industry I would be very wary of supporting the IPT as it is today. Why risk my reputation because they don't have their act together?

A new owner and a new TD would be what it would take for me personally to involve my business with the IPT.

I have to agree with you 150% on this one Timberly. I think the bottom line of the IPT for players and room owners is the risk isnt worth the reward. Maybe its time for the players and anyone who is owed by the IPT to use the power of the press here. I'm sure Billiards Digest and Inside Pool Magazine who write some interesting articles concerning this if they got the right amount of calls and emails. Who knows, it may spark a fire under Trudeau's a$$.


Southpaw

 

[Snapshot9]

Observations from the outside ...

Just observations I have made from watching the live and video library matches: The Gorina cloth seems to draw pretty well, but slows fast
when top english is used and coming offf a rail or two.

I liked the balls, the way they are marked, and the bright vibrant color of them. Chalk, don't know, haven't ordered any yet.

I, personally think, that anyone that 'has to play' on Simonis doesn't have that strong a game because it rolls and rolls so easy, making most shots
easier to get shape on, too easy, IMO. I much prefer Championship cloth, and not necessarily 860.

Most Filapino players have that nice easy stroke, and I would think that Simonis would favor them over other players from USA or Europe.

I am not known as a soft shooter, so slower cloth does not bother me in the least. In fact, I prefer it many times because weaker players can not get shape many times, depending on the shot, i.e., cut to corner with inside english draw to go 3 rails for shape.

The website keeps having changes made to it. (and if impending doom was upon us, the website would not be having current updates and improvements constantly being made to it). If Efren got paid, the others will too. The qualifiers are going on as scheduled although they have been hurt by the current situation. I feel pretty confident more information will be forthcoming by mid October from the IPT.

 

[av84fun]

Hello Ironman. <<As matter of fact, the balls, cloth, chalk, and racks are required. >>

They may be "required" but I have attended 3 qualifiers as a sponsor and didn't see a single Sardo rack and some of the tournament tables in 2 of the 3 events had clearly different cloth. In addition the "dress code" that was supposed to be STRICTLY enforced was totally ignored.

 

[av84fun]

Hi Randy...<<any room owner, who is presently in the "know", regarding the ipt's non payment crisis, and willingly participates in hosting a qualifier, is complicit (imo) in the perpetuation of this scam against all ipt hopefuls. >>

I have to respectfully disagree with you. I can't imagine any player holding a qualifier pool room owner responsible for anything the IPT does or does not do. The rooms are not owned by the IPT and this thread makes the point that holding the tournaments actually COSTS to room owner in many if not most cases.

The room owners do it for marketing purposes and shouldn't be held responsible. That would be like holding gas station owner-operators responsible for higher prices or oil spills which they in fact, have nothing to do with.
Regards,
Jim

 

[av84fun]

Hello Scott...<<anyone that 'has to play' on Simonis doesn't have that strong a game because it rolls and rolls so easy, making most shots
easier to get shape on, too easy, IMO. >>

I have to disagree. While you are correct that faster cloth allows for some shots to be executed that could not be made on nap cloth those shots are relatively rare...maybe 5-10%. On the other 90-95% the SPEED of the cloth makes is relatively more difficult to get perfect shape...especially on "across the line" vs. "down the line" routes.

The slower the cloth, the less impact incorrect cue ball speed has on the eventual outcome so, in the majority of cases, fast cloth makes the game more difficult IMHO.
Regards,
Jim

 

[jimmyg]

Hi Randy...<<any room owner, who is presently in the "know", regarding the ipt's non payment crisis, and willingly participates in hosting a qualifier, is complicit (imo) in the perpetuation of this scam against all ipt hopefuls. >>


The room owners do it for marketing purposes and shouldn't be held responsible. That would be like holding gas station owner-operators responsible for higher prices or oil spills which they in fact, have nothing to do with.
Regards,
Jim

Hi Jim, I really have no right to speak for Randy, or anyone other than myself with respect to their posts, but I believe that he was not speaking in legal terms. I believe that he is speaking in ethical terms and to a large degree I tend to lean in that direction myself.

Roy, from Norway, in thread #9, seems to have found a method to approach the ethics issue that seems to be pretty reasonable. IMO

Regards, Jim

 

[NYC cue dude]

av84fun,

i didn't suggest that the qualifiying hopefuls hold the rooms responsible per se, I was implying that room owners, who know that the ipt isn't paying it's guaranteed prize monies, should be ashamed of themselves for extending the platform to the further the ipts agenda of collecting $, and not paying.

We, as a collective community, should hold these room owners responsible, because without them, the "con" of collecting 2grand to qualify and not pay out in an event would stop. (and I am aware that these rounds of qualifiers get them nothing more than an entry into another, larger qualifier, at an attempt at winning thier priceless 2007 shortened season ipt card)

In other words, for a bit of marketing exposure, these room owners are willing to exploit these players, knowing that 200 players have not been paid for the last event.

This is assuming of course that the ipt will continue it's present ways of non-payment.


rg

 

[nfty9er]

Just curious

nfty9er,

any room owner, who is presently in the "know", regarding the ipt's non payment crisis, and willingly participates in hosting a qualifier, is complicit (imo) in the perpetuation of this scam against all ipt hopefuls.

Why any room owner would put their good names and reputations on the line (and folks, that is essentially what you would be doing), for an entity fraught with as many problems as the ipt currently has, is beyond me.

As a pool player, and frequent customer of many nationwide poolrooms, i would have no problem calling for/supporting a global boycott against all room owners willing to associate themselves professionally with the ipt while there still exists so many outstanding unpaid debts.

randy goldwater

Randy, why are you directing this post to me? I never said I wanted or was going to host a qualifier or was even interested at this point. The original post(by jimmyg) was the question of what was more important of making a living. I was just trying to find out what making a living has to do with anything and pointed out the cost is no big deal in the scheme of your business as a whole and I explained it.
I tend to agree with your analysis. I have received a lot of literature from the IPT soliciting my support through mini-qualifiers along with ways to increase my business. I have dealt with people in the business for years with this kind of plan to help our industry. It does not work if you have no confidence in the people at the top of the pyramid. I am not there yet.
By the way jimmyg never did answer my question of what does making a living have to do with hosting anything.

 

[NYC cue dude]

Nfty9er, it was directed at you because in post #3, you said "holding a qualifier is no reflection on a room owner" Also "holding a qualifier is free publicity"

So my post pointed out that holding these qualifiers, at this point in time, is not a harmless undertaking as you imply.

Truth of the matter, these players are really VICTIMS, and without the room owners support, the ipt wouldn't be able to continue to fleece them, with the obvious present intention of not paying.

I hope that answers your querry.

rg

 

[ironman]

Hello Ironman. <<As matter of fact, the balls, cloth, chalk, and racks are required. >>

They may be "required" but I have attended 3 qualifiers as a sponsor and didn't see a single Sardo rack and some of the tournament tables in 2 of the 3 events had clearly different cloth. In addition the "dress code" that was supposed to be STRICTLY enforced was totally ignored.

I do understand, and I apologize, yesterday that,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,person just had me P O.

I ran 3 Qualifiers myself and all the above mentioned was listed as required, but, not really enforced as you state. But, where I was, He paid for everything and never recieved the balls. Those racks are horrible!

As Jay pointed out, as best I can remember, theowner I mention was out about $6000. Lots of money for just a few people.

 

[jimmyg]

Randy, The original post(by jimmyg) was the question of what was more important of making a living. By the way jimmyg never did answer my question of what does making a living have to do with hosting anything.

HI nfty9er, I must have not worded my question too clearly!! What I was asking was if one was a room owner would they host an IPT qualifier at this point? I mentioned "you have to make a living" simply that, being a businessperson, that always remains in the decision making process.

I was curious, given the current situation, how all the different factors would be resolved including the money; PR, exposure, ethics, trust, loyalty, etc. So far, I'm pretty impressed with the high moral standards most, if not all, posters have.

I was also curious about the cost factors involved, so thanks.
Jim

 

[ironman]

av84fun,

i didn't suggest that the qualifiying hopefuls hold the rooms responsible per se, I was implying that room owners, who know that the ipt isn't paying it's guaranteed prize monies, should be ashamed of themselves for extending the platform to the further the ipts agenda of collecting $, and not paying.

We, as a collective community, should hold these room owners responsible, because without them, the "con" of collecting 2grand to qualify and not pay out in an event would stop. (and I am aware that these rounds of qualifiers get them nothing more than an entry into another, larger qualifier, at an attempt at winning thier priceless 2007 shortened season ipt card)

In other words, for a bit of marketing exposure, these room owners are willing to exploit these players, knowing that 200 players have not been paid for the last event.

This is assuming of course that the ipt will continue it's present ways of non-payment.


rg

You know, I agree with your point.

A good friend of mine a couple of weeks ago was to host a qualifirer and called and asked if I wouls coming down. This is a very good man with al the best intentions and was unaware of any non-payments. So, I asked if he was aware of the situation and he was abit shocked and went into gut-wrenching turmoil as to what to do.

Much gossip was going around I suggested he call a certain player everyone respects and who is also "in the mix" and get his thoughts. Well, he called back about an hour later and said that nobody knew anything.

His big concern was the players who had made travel plans from all over the country and possibly abroad and what made it worse was the fact that he wouldn't know who or how many to expect until around 7:30 that evening.

His final decision was to go ahead as had promised, because it was just too late to turn back. As it turns out he had only 2 entrants and both were from the region.

I understand that this is a rather isolated or different incident, but just another example of how the IPT is playing with people's lives. Everyone is left betwen the old "rock and a hard place".

This IMO shows how lack of Unity gives one person entirely too much power.