What would you do ...

T

Tony Zinzola

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I received a potential order for a cue this week with requests that were not what I normally do. The Buyer wanted a piloted 5x16/14 pin, adjustable weight and longer than normal.

The length wasn't an issue, but none of my cues have a weight bolt and they all have the same pin and joint size. I explained this to the customer and they didn't seem to have an issue with the weight, but still insists on the other pin because he doesn't like the pin that I'm using. If this was not an overseas order, I would just tell him to try the cue and send it back if he doesn't' like it.

I know I haven't been at this for a very long time, but when I started out, I tried several different joints until I found one that I liked the best and I have stuck with it. My cues are all built the same and the hit is fairly consistent from cue to cue and I really hate to deviate from that.

If somebody doesn't like the hit, that's fine. I'm not looking to make my cues hit like somebody else's. I was asked a month or so ago if I could make a cue for somebody to hit like his Mezz cue. I told him to buy a Mezz and that my cues hit like my cues. At present, every person not already known to me who has bought a cue has another or at least one more on order, so I must be doing something right.

I am more than likely going to pass on this order, but was just wondering how most of you would handle this. I know it's called a custom cue, but if I am trying to put out consistent hitting cues, so people know what to expect.

Any input would be appreciated.

Thanks
 
Tony Zinzola said:
I received a potential order for a cue this week with requests that were not what I normally do. The Buyer wanted a piloted 5x16/14 pin, adjustable weight and longer than normal.

The length wasn't an issue, but none of my cues have a weight bolt and they all have the same pin and joint size. I explained this to the customer and they didn't seem to have an issue with the weight, but still insists on the other pin because he doesn't like the pin that I'm using. If this was not an overseas order, I would just tell him to try the cue and send it back if he doesn't' like it.

I know I haven't been at this for a very long time, but when I started out, I tried several different joints until I found one that I liked the best and I have stuck with it. My cues are all built the same and the hit is fairly consistent from cue to cue and I really hate to deviate from that.

If somebody doesn't like the hit, that's fine. I'm not looking to make my cues hit like somebody else's. I was asked a month or so ago if I could make a cue for somebody to hit like his Mezz cue. I told him to buy a Mezz and that my cues hit like my cues. At present, every person not already known to me who has bought a cue has another or at least one more on order, so I must be doing something right.

I am more than likely going to pass on this order, but was just wondering how most of you would handle this. I know it's called a custom cue, but if I am trying to put out consistent hitting cues, so people know what to expect.

Any input would be appreciated.

Thanks
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I believe one of the hardest things to learn in cuemaking is to just say "No". Early on it's especially difficult.

The term "custom" seems to have taken on the meaning that a maker should be willing to build a cue whatever way the buyer wants. That can be true to an extent, but, deviate from what you believe is best and you may find yourself wishing you hadn't.

Why not build one with a 5/16x14 joint for yourself just to see if you would feel comfortable with selling it? If you do, you'll then have another option to offer customers. If you don't like it, stick to your original preferences.

btw, you have a PM
 
TellsItLikeItIs said:
I believe one of the hardest things to learn in cuemaking is to just say "No". Early on it's especially difficult.

The term "custom" seems to have taken on the meaning that a maker should be willing to build a cue whatever way the buyer wants. That can be true to an extent, but, deviate from what you believe is best and you may find yourself wishing you hadn't.

Why not build one with a 5/16x14 joint for yourself just to see if you would feel comfortable with selling it? If you do, you'll then have another option to offer customers. If you don't like it, stick to your original preferences.

btw, you have a PM
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I believe just the absolute opposite, the term "custom" has taken on a meaning of a small factory cue. You may build the greatest cue in the world and only build three a year but if the customer can't get what he wants, how is it custom? It's the standard cue that the guy down the street would also receive if he ordered one. Just my 2 cents worth but I'm sticking to it

Dick
 
I will install just about any joint pin on a custom ordered cue because it is just that, custom ordered. I explain why I use the pin I do and why I build a cue the way I do. If the customer has their own specs and they are reasonable I will do it. I refuse to build anything that is not of a sound design at any price. Chris.
 
Will Southwest build a cue with that pin?
I say take the order anyway but since you don't have a sanding mandrel for that pin, tell him if he needs another shaft, he will have to send the butt back.
 
Dick and Chris, I can see where you guys are coming from, but I have a question.

If a customer came into your shop with a cue in their hand (by another cue maker) and asked you to make them a cue almost identical to that one, would you do it?

I know this is not the same thing I asked in the original question, but I'm just wondering if you would think it's different? It's still a custom cue built to the customers request.

I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm just wondering how most people would handle these issues.
 

If a customer came into your shop with a cue in their hand (by another cue maker) and asked you to make them a cue almost identical to that one, would you do it?


No.
Btw, custom cue or not , the cue you make has your name on it.
You can just call it Tony Zinzola CUES.
Who cares if the word custom is there?
Does SW call their cues SW Custom Cues?
Tad Custom Cues?
They are just cues.
 
Chris Byrne said:
I will install just about any joint pin on a custom ordered cue because it is just that, custom ordered. I explain why I use the pin I do and why I build a cue the way I do. If the customer has their own specs and they are reasonable I will do it. I refuse to build anything that is not of a sound design at any price. Chris.
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The customer gets what the customer wants. I DON'T like steel joint collars on the butt or brass inserts in the shaft but if that's what my customer wants I'll do it.

Last year I took an order for a cue 65" long, that weighed 25 oz. and had a 15mm tip! This cue was a DOG, I would bet anyone all the money I had on me that they couldn't run a rack of 9 ball with it. But that's what he wanted and that's what he got. He loves the cue, can't say enough good things about it. If anyone else were to hit with it, they would think I have no idea what I was doing, but he loves it and that's all that matters to me.

Like Chris I wouldn't sacrifice structural integrity for any amount on money but, being able to give the customer exactly what they want is what makes me a CUSTOM cuemaker.

Paul
 
I've had some more contact with the customer. He may be willing to bend on the pin. I may also be willing to bend on the pin after reading some of the responses here.

One of the other issues for me, as Joey posted, is not having the Mandrels for this pin and Mandrels aren't cheap. I guess I could buy some Steel ones instead of Carbide for this cue because I don't plan on normally using this pin and they will probably outlive my carbide ones anyway.

I appreciate all the responses.
 
Let me butt in....

Sorry but I will agree and disagree. I too, have asked a cuemaker to consider a different pin. It has always been a point of discussion, though not a demand.

When a cuemaker says, "In my experience, this is the best pin for my cues and I highly recommend using it." I wonder about someone who would try to insist on using something else.

But I do disagree on the points the other cuemakers have made. Cues, eventually get sold, traded and shared. If you make an inferior product (ie less than the best pin) and someone tries it and says and I have heard it a million times, "I've hit with one of those and I didnt like the hit."

My suggestion, is build the best (IN YOUR MIND) product you possibly can and if you lose a sale, so be it.

JMO

Ken
 
Tony Zinzola said:
Dick and Chris, I can see where you guys are coming from, but I have a question.

If a customer came into your shop with a cue in their hand (by another cue maker) and asked you to make them a cue almost identical to that one, would you do it?

I know this is not the same thing I asked in the original question, but I'm just wondering if you would think it's different? It's still a custom cue built to the customers request.

I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm just wondering how most people would handle these issues.
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I would. It probably wouldn't be identical but similar. After all, where does copying a design start? Someone created the first Sneaky Pete, someone created the first Merry Widow, someone created the first Willie Hoppe and so on and so on. I see high end cue makers copying others designs all of the time and what they say is that this is not a copy but that this is a tribute cue. Most designs are fairly simple and just because someone else came up with the design first doesn't mean that I or someone else couldn't have come up with the same design on their own, at a different date. I see no reason not to build smiler. Some other cue designs are very complex, this could very well be a different matter as it may be a very long shot that two people may have come up with that same design.

Both Chris and Joey have made very good points. I, myself, use Radial pins in most of my cues. Most of my cues are more slender than most (.842 joint-1.220 butt) and my cues have a forward balance. When I take an order I try to steer people to my parameters and explain why I use them. However, the customer has the last call as he is the one who will be using this cue. I may charge a premium price as I would have to change and then recalibrate my butt lathe settings or shaft taper bar and as Joey said, it would be harder to put on the finish as my normal carbides couldn't be used.
By the way, I've read on this forum, more than once, about Briana's hardened steel mandrels as not being up to snuff when compared to carbide mandrels. I certainly couldn't argue with that but there is a good chance that I'm going to buy 3 or 4 different sizes of these at the DCC this year if they are concentric. Like I said, I normally use a radial pin but I get refinish jobs on other cues and I believe these would really come in handy for occasional use without the exorbitant price for carbide.

Dick
 
I'm with Mr. Neighbors on these issues... If you call yourself a custom cuemaker, you should build to the customer's specs, (if they have any) not your own. I'm not saying building your own cues is a bad thing at all, and if you have aspirations of becoming the next Schon cues, or SouthWest cues, that's probably the path you need to take.
I do make exceptions though, if someone wants something unrealistic, I tell them I can't do it.
 
i would lose the sale

best example i can think of is my jewelry business, i have been making custom jewelry for 40 years. i have had customers come into my store with their designs that were so wrong its unbelieveable. i'm not talking about just looks, i'm talking about a ring that would not make it out the door before stones start falling out. i believe that the customer should get what they want, but if i believe its not right way to build a cue, they will not get it from me.
 
Tony,
I guess what it comes down to is this.
Are you comfortable and willing to put a pin that you don't normally in a cue you are building?
Are you willing to make the investment for possibly buying sanding mandrels or whatever tooling you will need for the joint?
As long as you are ok with it and confident in your work, why not do it?
 
By the way, I've read on this forum, more than once, about Briana's hardened steel mandrels as not being up to snuff when compared to carbide mandrels. I certainly couldn't argue with that but there is a good chance that I'm going to buy 3 or 4 different sizes of these at the DCC this year if they are concentric.

IF they are, they should be cut in half. Not one long piece.:)
 
Hi Tony,

I am not a cuemaker but I am a customer and will tell you that when it comes to making a decision, at least for me and I doubt I am alone, if the cuemaker can't or won't use a SS joint I take my business elsewhere. There are just too many options out there to make me compromise and move away from what I like. That said, I don't see anything wrong with you sticking to your guns if that's what you decide but, at the same time, I think you would be alienating a large group of potential buyers.

Best regards,
Dave

P.S. I really like the looks of your work.
 
rhncue said:
I believe just the absolute opposite, the term "custom" has taken on a meaning of a small factory cue. You may build the greatest cue in the world and only build three a year but if the customer can't get what he wants, how is it custom? It's the standard cue that the guy down the street would also receive if he ordered one. Just my 2 cents worth but I'm sticking to it

Dick
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Even though I don't agree with you Dick, I still respect your position & thoughts. Hey, your 2 cent is worth just as much as anyones.

Heres one for you though: I get a call from a man that wants a cue built and wants an 18" pro taper on the shaft (this was two or more years ago). First I thought he was measuring from the wrong end of the shaft but he wasn't. I could have built it, (I suppose) but wouldn't.

So where do ya draw the line. That would still have been custom. May have effected the structural integrity, may not have, who knows. Would you have taken the gamble on it?
 
Koop said:
Hi Tony,

I am not a cuemaker but I am a customer and will tell you that when it comes to making a decision, at least for me and I doubt I am alone, if the cuemaker can't or won't use a SS joint I take my business elsewhere. There are just too many options out there to make me compromise and move away from what I like. That said, I don't see anything wrong with you sticking to your guns if that's what you decide but, at the same time, I think you would be alienating a large group of potential buyers.

Best regards,
Dave

P.S. I really like the looks of your work.
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I understand I could alienate some buyers by not deviating. When I started building cues, I never expected to sell any. It was just something that I had wanted to try for close to 20 years.

When people started asking about buying cues, I set some rules for myself.

1. I wanted all of my cues to hit as consistent as possible. I once heard a cue maker say "All of my cues hit different". To me, that is not a good thing. Perhaps to him it was. If they all hit different, some will hit great, some will hit like garbage. If you went to a restaurant and you loved your first meal and the second time you went, you ordered the exact same thing and it tasted like garbage, would you ever go back?

2. I do not want to let anything out that I am not happy with. I have burned some cues and have some that I play with myself. That experimental bridged point cue I made hits great, but I can see a couple of flaws in it. I play with it, but I will not under any circumstances sell it. I had another cue that the points and veneers were perfect. Everything about the cue was perfect, until I put the pin in and blew out the side. I took the pin up, wrapped it in surgical tubing and when it was dry, re-pinned it. I showed it so a lot of people and not one person could find the flaw, but I knew it was there. I gave it to my mothers husband who then asked if he could send it to a mutual friend out west. I told him no way, that I didn't want it out there.

3. I do not want to build any cues without points and veneers. My second cue had no points. It was a very nice piece of cocobolo. That's not to say if I had another outstanding piece of wood, I wouldn't build one, but that's just not what I want to do.

There's nothing to force me to abide by 1 and 2, but you have to draw the line somewhere.

My question to the people that would build anything the customer asks for is if a customer came into your shop and wanted you to build a cue with a joint like John Robinson's, would you build it? This is not to say there is anything wrong with his joint, it is probably stronger than most of the other cues out there. I just used that as an example because it is the complete opposite of what you are accustomed to building.

Thanks again for all of the answers. I'm still undecided about building a cue with a different joint. I imagine that I will build it and if I am not happy with the hit, I will burn it.
 
TellsItLikeItIs said:
Even though I don't agree with you Dick, I still respect your position & thoughts. Hey, your 2 cent is worth just as much as anyones.

Heres one for you though: I get a call from a man that wants a cue built and wants an 18" pro taper on the shaft (this was two or more years ago). First I thought he was measuring from the wrong end of the shaft but he wasn't. I could have built it, (I suppose) but wouldn't.

So where do ya draw the line. That would still have been custom. May have effected the structural integrity, may not have, who knows. Would you have taken the gamble on it?
Click to expand...

You draw the line where you want to!!! It's your business and you have to live with the decisions you make. Ask yourself if you want that peice out running around with YOUR NAME ON IT?
 
Tony Zinzola said:
I understand I could alienate some buyers by not deviating. When I started building cues, I never expected to sell any. It was just something that I had wanted to try for close to 20 years.

When people started asking about buying cues, I set some rules for myself.
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Fair enough Tony.

I think it just comes down to what YOU are comfortable with. Everyone is different so it's just whether or not you think it's ok.

Best of luck and I will turn it back over to the qualified peoples, i.e. cuemakers :D

Koop
 
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