What's Going On With Custom Cue Prices?

[knifemakermike]

Your comment proves my case... You made a claim that is blatantly false which is what I addressed. Any cue maker worth their weight in salt knows your "claim" is not true.

It's those like you that have little to no knowledge of building cues that spread falsehoods directing poeple away from the truth ultimately playing into exactly what the OP was asking about.

PS, Show me all the Gus's and George's that no one is buying...

You have no point and you definitely don't know anything about cuemaking or engineering by your comments.

Let's set somethings straight so we can have a real debate:

Qualifications:
Me - I have a BSME from Florida Tech and have been a mechanical engineer for 20+ years working in medical, aerospace & electro-mechanical design including wearable computers. I've built and manage many prototyping and design centers. My hobby is knifemaking in which I've built and design the majority of my equipment. I work with various metals, forgings, composite and natural materials including wood. I have over 30 registered patents (not just design patents) issued. You can look up some of posts with various engineering analysis I've done on here with shaft displacement and computer simulations.

With respect to cue design / making - I've visited and got the opportunity to spend 4 days with Tim Scruggs & Mike back in 1999 in their shop learning about cuemaking. I've been to the following makers cue shops to learn their construction and methods: Ned Morris, Ariel Carmeli, Dan Dishaw, Paul Mottey, Pete Omen, Tim Padgett. I've also had a ton of conversations with other makers on their various methods from an engineering standpoint.

Your qualification - you talk trash on a forum and pretend like your point of view is valid and anyone that has a different point of view is wrong. That is an absurd and moronic mentality that is usually indicative of a half-wit.

Let me state it in simpler terms for you; as with almost all things in life, technology evolves and products get better. A Tesla in almost every measure is a better car than any antique car. Reliability, engine efficiency, 0-60, handling, safety, you name it, except for these factors: Coolness, collectible & fun (subjective).

Don't make irrational arguments that you have zero to back it up.

You apparently also don't know how to use the search function so let me do it for you as far as cues for sale:

https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?489065&p=6334044#post6334044

https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=480169

https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=482262

and a lot more, try doing some research


and again, no one was talking about these cues until you brought them up. Don't make stupid comments and not expect to get bashed.

 

[ctran]

Cues are still worth what ppl are willing to pay for them, that never changes.

 

[knifemakermike]

Are you suggesting you do not own an iphone/android phone? And how much more expensive is that rolex than the iphone? 10... 15.... maybe 20 times more expensive? How is that even a comparison?

You are right, I don't understand the point of any of this. The thread is about why the prices of custom cues are remaining high while they aren't selling that well.

People made some very astute observations and then these guys come on here acting defense about young vs old, no one is talking about that. WTF does a rolex have to do with an Iphone.

And most Rolex's drop in value from what people pay, that's a fact.

 

[Runner]

Are you suggesting you do not own an iphone/android phone? And how much more expensive is that rolex than the iphone? 10... 15.... maybe 20 times more expensive? How is that even a comparison?

I'm suggesting fun.. gotta laugh at it all sometimes.

 

[knifemakermike]

I'm suggesting fun.. gotta laugh at it all sometimes.

I'm also in agreement with that lol, let's turn this into a meme thread

 

[nine_ball6970]

You are right, I don't understand the point of any of this. The thread is about why the prices of custom cues are remaining high while they aren't selling that well.

People made some very astute observations and then these guys come on here acting defense about young vs old, no one is talking about that. WTF does a rolex have to do with an Iphone.

And most Rolex's drop in value from what people pay, that's a fact.

The simple answer. Person pays certain amount. They want to sell. Either they need money or they don't. If they do, then they lower price and take loss. If they don't, then they are waiting for the right buyer willing to pay the price.

The big problem is most of the people buying cues are not buying them to play with. They want to lowball hoping seller needs money and they can flip the cue for a profit later on. That hurts all buyers and sellers.

 

[S.Vaskovskyi]

The simple answer. Person pays certain amount. They want to sell. Either they need money or they don't. If they do, then they lower price and take loss. If they don't, then they are waiting for the right buyer willing to pay the price.

The big problem is most of the people buying cues are not buying them to play with. They want to lowball hoping seller needs money and they can flip the cue for a profit later on. That hurts all buyers and sellers.

Finally short but so informative and true post. As simple as that...

 

[skins]

You have no point and you definitely don't know anything about cuemaking or engineering by your comments.

Let's set somethings straight so we can have a real debate:

Qualifications:
Me - I have a BSME from Florida Tech and have been a mechanical engineer for 20+ years working in medical, aerospace & electro-mechanical design including wearable computers. I've built and manage many prototyping and design centers. My hobby is knifemaking in which I've built and design the majority of my equipment. I work with various metals, forgings, composite and natural materials including wood. I have over 30 registered patents (not just design patents) issued. You can look up some of posts with various engineering analysis I've done on here with shaft displacement and computer simulations.

With respect to cue design / making - I've visited and got the opportunity to spend 4 days with Tim Scruggs & Mike back in 1999 in their shop learning about cuemaking. I've been to the following makers cue shops to learn their construction and methods: Ned Morris, Ariel Carmeli, Dan Dishaw, Paul Mottey, Pete Omen, Tim Padgett. I've also had a ton of conversations with other makers on their various methods from an engineering standpoint.

Your qualification - you talk trash on a forum and pretend like your point of view is valid and anyone that has a different point of view is wrong. That is an absurd and moronic mentality that is usually indicative of a half-wit.

Let me state it in simpler terms for you; as with almost all things in life, technology evolves and products get better. A Tesla in almost every measure is a better car than any antique car. Reliability, engine efficiency, 0-60, handling, safety, you name it, except for these factors: Coolness, collectible & fun (subjective).

Don't make irrational arguments that you have zero to back it up.

You apparently also don't know how to use the search function so let me do it for you as far as cues for sale:

https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?489065&p=6334044#post6334044

https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=480169

https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=482262

and a lot more, try doing some research


and again, no one was talking about these cues until you brought them up. Don't make stupid comments and not expect to get bashed.

Your qualifications say NOTHING about cue building nor the artistry and meticulous approach that separate those I'm talking about.. Machinery is only part of cue building. There are things no machine can do the maker must and if they don't know nor can execute well, that will be seen and or felt in the final product.... I really don't have to explain myself to you, someone who just doesn't get it, but since you asked, here are my qualifications... I've had the pleasure of being involved in the production of pool cues since 1993 (26 years) as a cue designer and CNC machine code programmer working with some spectacular cue makers. You can visit my profile if you'd like. I've been involved in every aspect of cue construction. You have not. I have owned or examined thousands of cues over my 40 years that I've been around cues. I'd bet you have not. I've made cues a big part of my life. I'd bet you have not. As well I've been lucky to have made acquaintances with some of the most well known and respected makers in the world that I can call my friends.

I think that may qualify me as one who may have an educated opinion..

My thoughts are not coming out of left field nor a personal gain like many others. So maybe if you paid attention you might learn something.

As for the Gus's and Georges.. WOW 3...LOL... well let's see, Gus made about 1200 cues and so did George so you only have another 2397 more cues to post that are for sale... Did you ever thing that the cues that are still for sale MIGHT have a reason they still are BESIDES what you think. There's always a story when cues don't sell.

As for bashing I never "bashed" you buddy.. I only stated that your claim of all of today's cues are made better than Balabushka's because of the machinery advancements was hogwash, period.. And it still is..

 

[knifemakermike]

Your qualifications say NOTHING about cue building nor the artistry and meticulous approach that separate those I'm talking about.. Machinery is only part of cue building. There are things no machine can do the maker must and if they don't know nor can execute well, that will be seen and or felt in the final product.... I really don't have to explain myself to you, someone who just doesn't get it, but since you asked, here are my qualifications... I've had the pleasure of being involved in the production of pool cues since 1993 (26 years) as a cue designer and CNC machine code programmer working with some spectacular cue makers. You can visit my profile if you'd like. I've been involved in every aspect of cue construction. You have not. I have owned or examined thousands of cues over my 40 years that I've been around cues. I'd bet you have not. I've made cues a big part of my life. I'd bet you have not. As well I've been lucky to have made acquaintances with some of the most well known and respected makers in the world that I can call my friends.

I think that may qualify me as one who may have an educated opinion..

My thoughts are not coming out of left field nor a personal gain like many others. So maybe if you paid attention you might learn something.

As for the Gus's and Georges.. WOW 3...LOL... well let's see, Gus made about 1200 cues and so did George so you only have another 2397 more cues to post that are for sale... Did you ever thing that the cues that are still for sale MIGHT have a reason they still are BESIDES what you think. There's always a story when cues don't sell.

As for bashing I never "bashed" you buddy.. I only stated that your claim of all of today's cues are made better than Balabushka's because of the machinery advancements was hogwash, period.. And it still is..

Knowing CNC programming doesn’t mean jack. There are 10 year olds that can do CAM and use their dads tormach. Try impressing more with your Gcode.
If you spent 40 years making cues and still can’t make a better cue that means you suck or as dumb as a bag of rocks. You don’t know jack about engineering or design, you code tool paths and know setup if you even actually do any machining.

Stop being selective, I only posted 3 that are for sale because you ask to see some, there are a lot more, so do a search, I don’t need to list everyone’s ad on here.

You might want to learn to read and critically think before posting. No one was talking about Gus’s or George’s cue until you and that snake oil salesman got on your high horse in here. No one gives a crap about your nostalgic rhetoric. Don’t come on post and start insulting people and expect not to get your crap thrown back at you.

40 years making bad cues and haven’t improved on old designs? Gtfo

 

[knifemakermike]

Your qualifications say NOTHING about cue building nor the artistry and meticulous approach that separate those I'm talking about.. Machinery is only part of cue building. There are things no machine can do the maker must and if they don't know nor can execute well, that will be seen and or felt in the final product.... I really don't have to explain myself to you, someone who just doesn't get it, but since you asked, here are my qualifications... I've had the pleasure of being involved in the production of pool cues since 1993 (26 years) as a cue designer and CNC machine code programmer working with some spectacular cue makers. You can visit my profile if you'd like. I've been involved in every aspect of cue construction. You have not. I have owned or examined thousands of cues over my 40 years that I've been around cues. I'd bet you have not. I've made cues a big part of my life. I'd bet you have not. As well I've been lucky to have made acquaintances with some of the most well known and respected makers in the world that I can call my friends.

I think that may qualify me as one who may have an educated opinion..

My thoughts are not coming out of left field nor a personal gain like many others. So maybe if you paid attention you might learn something.

As for the Gus's and Georges.. WOW 3...LOL... well let's see, Gus made about 1200 cues and so did George so you only have another 2397 more cues to post that are for sale... Did you ever thing that the cues that are still for sale MIGHT have a reason they still are BESIDES what you think. There's always a story when cues don't sell.

As for bashing I never "bashed" you buddy.. I only stated that your claim of all of today's cues are made better than Balabushka's because of the machinery advancements was hogwash, period.. And it still is..

Here is another thing wise azz, artistry is not easily quantifiable, it’s subjective. You make stupid statements that have ZERO proof:
My statement was that modern cues have better engineering, that is proven by the advancement in material science, engineering & manufacturing equipment.

Your statement: szamboti and balabushkad are better because you like them better. That’s not proof or face of anything other than your subjective opinion.

What metrics are your cues better in? Where is this double blind performance test using the scientific method at? What was the sampling? What where the test and method of measurement? Answer is..... never was done because feel/hit/preference is subjective.

Long story short, you are full of crap making broad statements that have zero proof behind them. I bet you predator, Mezz & the other companies have all these studies. What a tool

 

[skins]

Knowing CNC programming doesn’t mean jack. There are 10 year olds that can do CAM and use their dads tormach. Try impressing more with your Gcode.
If you spent 40 years making cues and still can’t make a better cue that means you suck or as dumb as a bag of rocks. You don’t know jack about engineering or design, you code tool paths and know setup if you even actually do any machining.

Stop being selective, I only posted 3 that are for sale because you ask to see some, there are a lot more, so do a search, I don’t need to list everyone’s ad on here.

You might want to learn to read and critically think before posting. No one was talking about Gus’s or George’s cue until you and that snake oil salesman got on your high horse in here. No one gives a crap about your nostalgic rhetoric. Don’t come on post and start insulting people and expect not to get your crap thrown back at you.

40 years making bad cues and haven’t improved on old designs? Gtfo

LOL.... I thought you'd respond that way. No substance, no truth, no argument....

>>>>>> Stick to knives

 

[knifemakermike]

LOL.... I thought you'd respond that way. No substance, no truth, no argument....

>>>>>> Stick to knives

Stick to being an idiot.

Like saying your old cues have more artistry, gtfo. You ever seen a Manzino, Richard Black, Blackboar, Gina???

My work is done here, I’m sure if anyone was bored enough to read this they know your full of crap and have zero knowledge of anything.

 

[skins]

Here is another thing wise azz, artistry is not easily quantifiable, it’s subjective. You make stupid statements that have ZERO proof:
My statement was that modern cues have better engineering, that is proven by the advancement in material science, engineering & manufacturing equipment.

Your statement: szamboti and balabushkad are better because you like them better. That’s not proof or face of anything other than your subjective opinion.

What metrics are your cues better in? Where is this double blind performance test using the scientific method at? What was the sampling? What where the test and method of measurement? Answer is..... never was done because feel/hit/preference is subjective.

Long story short, you are full of crap making broad statements that have zero proof behind them. I bet you predator, Mezz & the other companies have all these studies. What a tool

Listen, you said the QUALITY of today's cues were better that Balabushka's.

"No offense but a Balabushka while being a true collectible is not even close to a modern production let alone custom in quality"

That's what I responded to. Then stated why. No personal feeling at all. ALL EXPERIENCE. Machinery is only a part of the cue building process. It still takes experienced and skillful hands to produce a TOP quality cue. Time has proven that advancements in machinery does NOT make that automatic. There are tons of cues produced in factories with advanced machinery yet their product is sub par in comparison. If you had been involved with as many manufactures as I have, and had examined as many cues as, you might understand this but you're obviously green to that.

Tight tolerance machinery has been around for over 50 years. Old Clausing lathes are, for all intensive purposes, just as accurate as those today. The use of CNC to control them does not guarantee a better quality product.
It takes SKILLS beyond machinery to produce a great product when using organic material. If you're really involved in making knives you'd think you'd know that but maybe you're just a stamp'em out kinda guy..

Stick to knives

 

[Snooker Theory]

 

[knifemakermike]

Listen, you said the QUALITY of today's cues were better that Balabushka's.

"No offense but a Balabushka while being a true collectible is not even close to a modern production let alone custom in quality"

That's what I responded to. Then stated why. No personal feeling at all. ALL EXPERIENCE. Machinery is only a part of the cue building process. It still takes experienced and skillful hands to produce a TOP quality cue. Time has proven that advancements in machinery does NOT make that automatic. There are tons of cues produced in factories with advanced machinery yet their product is sub par in comparison. If you had been involved with as many manufactures as I have, and had examined as many cues as, you might understand this but you're obviously green to that.

Tight tolerance machinery has been around for over 50 years. Old Clausing lathes are, for all intensive purposes, just as accurate as those today. The use of CNC to control them does not guarantee a better quality product.
It takes SKILLS beyond machinery to produce a great product when using organic material. If you're really involved in making knives you'd think you'd know that but maybe you're just a stamp'em out kinda guy..

Stick to knives

Again, you are proving how selective and dumb you are. You ended your post by telling me to stick to knives, like that is not an insult. The first sign a person has no insight and is narrow minded is when they tell people their opinion on a subjective matter doesn’t matter.

You just proved you have zero knowledge of production or machinery. It’s not that manufacturers can’t make a better product, it’s that they are maximizing their profit. There is no secret ninja pool technique, you think predator can’t buy a balabushla and reverse engineer it? Lmfao that’s ignorant. They are into it to make money, they have a ROI point with all their cues. You conviently pick on manufacturers but don’t say anything about the modern makers that would blow away the quality of those old cues. Again, if you think the quality of a balabushka is greater than a blackboar you are really mentally challenged.

I’ll let you keep proving yourself an idiot on here, I’m busy and I appreciate all the posters that gave their opinions on the pricing issues. I learned a lot from them. You also made me realize you can’t fix stupid. Stick to fixing runout and wasting 40 years on zero improvement in your supposed craft.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Again, you are proving how selective and dumb you are. You ended your post by telling me to stick to knives, like that is not an insult. The first sign a person has no insight and is narrow minded is when they tell people their opinion on a subjective matter doesn’t matter.

You just proved you have zero knowledge of production or machinery. It’s not that manufacturers can’t make a better product, it’s that they are maximizing their profit. There is no secret ninja pool technique, you think predator can’t buy a balabushla and reverse engineer it? Lmfao that’s ignorant. They are into it to make money, they have a ROI point with all their cues. You conviently pick on manufacturers but don’t say anything about the modern makers that would blow away the quality of those old cues. Again, if you think the quality of a balabushka is greater than a blackboar you are really mentally challenged.

I’ll let you keep proving yourself an idiot on here, I’m busy and I appreciate all the posters that gave their opinions on the pricing issues. I learned a lot from them. You also made me realize you can’t fix stupid. Stick to fixing runout and wasting 40 years on zero improvement in your supposed craft.

I think you really need to make cues to have a real deep knowledge of cues.
Being a collector or player really does not give a deep knowledge of cue making .

How many production cues today still have spliced points ???
Why does Mezz not do spliced points when Adam did full-splice before him ( same family ) ?

I think you are also misunderstanding this sentence.

"
"No offense but a Balabushka while being a true collectible is not even close to a modern production let alone custom in quality"

You are actually agreeing with it but arguing against Skins in writing that.

Bushka did not even have a lathe with a large spindle.

 

[skins]

Stick to being an idiot.

Like saying your old cues have more artistry, gtfo. You ever seen a Manzino, Richard Black, Blackboar, Gina???

My work is done here, I’m sure if anyone was bored enough to read this they know your full of crap and have zero knowledge of anything.

Who said anything about artistry??.... you said quality. That's all I argued.

The only thing I'm full of is more knowledge than you about cues...

Once again no substance....

Here is a cue Bob Manzino built for me that I designed and supplied the dxf's... Next thing you'll say is since I designed the cue it's not a Manzino..lol

 

[skins]

Again, you are proving how selective and dumb you are. You ended your post by telling me to stick to knives, like that is not an insult. The first sign a person has no insight and is narrow minded is when they tell people their opinion on a subjective matter doesn’t matter.

You just proved you have zero knowledge of production or machinery. It’s not that manufacturers can’t make a better product, it’s that they are maximizing their profit. There is no secret ninja pool technique, you think predator can’t buy a balabushla and reverse engineer it? Lmfao that’s ignorant. They are into it to make money, they have a ROI point with all their cues. You conviently pick on manufacturers but don’t say anything about the modern makers that would blow away the quality of those old cues. Again, if you think the quality of a balabushka is greater than a blackboar you are really mentally challenged.

I’ll let you keep proving yourself an idiot on here, I’m busy and I appreciate all the posters that gave their opinions on the pricing issues. I learned a lot from them. You also made me realize you can’t fix stupid. Stick to fixing runout and wasting 40 years on zero improvement in your supposed craft.

You just prove more and more you know little to nothing about cue making....

But no hard feelings.

Enjoy your craft

PS...Not once did I ever demean your craft nor say you were subpar in it, yet you throw insults at my work without hesitation... That shows no class and says a lot about your character..

 

[knifemakermike]

You just prove more and more you know little to nothing about cue making....

But no hard feelings.

Enjoy your craft

PS...Not once did I ever demean your craft nor say you were subpar in it, yet you throw insults at my work without hesitation... That shows no class and says a lot about your character..

I can’t even keep up with your BS anymore. You drew a vector file for a pattern and suddenly you designed the cue, ok bro. That tells me all I need to know about you. 40 years making cue and you admittedly haven’t made one improvement. You either are full of crap or suck at your job.

Enjoy the splendor in your mind, I actually don’t enjoy arguments so I’ll let people judge you based off of all the stupid crap you wrote.

BTW, having a nice cue doesn’t mean you know crap about cues or that you know how to use it. Posting a pic of it and claiming you designed it furthers the point that you are delusional. That’s like me claiming I designed my bmw because I chose the pin stripes on the hood, again idiotic.

Claiming you’re a cnc guy then saying how cnc aren’t as good as old lathes, what does hat even mean? You think cnc’s Aren’t as accurate as dividing plates and manual pantographs? You say really dumb crap that may fool some but not anyone that has seen the inside of a machine shop. You make very confusing arguments.

Have fun in your made up world, bye Felicia

 

[dbgordie]

I have a few customs and a couple production cues. To me the best hitting cue I have is my '59 Balabushka. To say that some production cue can feel the same as my Bushka is ridiculous. Is it worth how much I paid for it? Who cares? I like it. Plus, it's a piece of history, just like all the vintage Brunswicks I have. I bet those Predator cues won't be worth anything in 60 years. :thumbup: