What's Good About A Good Stroke?

ENGLISH! said:
Hi Fran,

How are you?

Believe it or not, I would describe myself as being an unconvinced non- conformist & hence unaccepting of the arguements that were trying to persuade me to do so & thus became agumentative. Sorry, I know that is not to your & others' liking, including myself, again believe or not.

The quote you reference was in response to Sean picking apart some of my anaylogies that I really did not mean to be an 'exact' comparison to the 'Piston J- Stroke'. So... I was just pointing out that the 'pendulum stroke' is almost in no way analogous to a true pendulum. A little nit for nat. It was not the focus of the 'discussion'.

As to the term 'pendulum', I would agree that it is very poor & even 'pendulum-like' is a stretch, as you state.

As to your question, yes, we would have to completely 'relax' & not use any muscles & simply let gravity 'pull' the arm back to perpendicular, at which time, if set up near perfectly, the tip would be at or near tip/CB contact and that would be the limit of force we could apply to the ball. I do not know, but that method might even produce a double hit dependent on the cb /ob seperation as the cue would also be uncontrolled on the other side of perpendicular other than by gravity & the affect of colliding with the CB. I do not know if a human being is even capable of doing that in a conscious state.

In the thread regarding the pull/push aspects of the delivery of the pool cue, I feel that the point was certainly made that 'no one' feels, thinks, or believes that a pool 'stroke' is anything like a gravity pendulum.

Who named it that anyway? It was not well thought out IMHO. Also do you know who developed it as a stroke to be taught?

In any case that is my take, but I defer to the scientists for a totally accurate explanation.

Perhaps, the Single Hinge Hit would be more desrciptive & user friendly.

However, that is certainly not for me to decide, as I am certainly not using it & I would not teach its' finish, except as a last resort.

The last thing I want is another word war.

Best Wishes,
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Hi Rick,

I'm doing well, thanks. Almost normal (whatever that means :eek: ).

I don't know who labeled that particular stroke a pendulum stroke, or when, but I imagine it served it's purpose back in the day. But I think there's nothing wrong with revisiting old terminology and updating it as we progress. We do that with rules and with definitions of terms associated with rules, so why not in other areas as well?
 
FranCrimi said:
I'm sure there are other ways of defining the stroke than to create a new meaning for a word that already has a specific meaning. How about calling it an arc stroke, (that is, if it's an actual arc). Then there wouldn't be the implication of a gravity-dependent motion.
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"Pendulum" clearly conveys the most important feature of the stroke: the unmoving pivot at the elbow. A better term would have to do that and more.

"Pendulum stroke" is an analogy (like "piston stroke") - it isn't a redefined word.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
"Pendulum" clearly conveys the most important feature of the stroke: the unmoving pivot at the elbow. A better term would have to do that and more.

"Pendulum stroke" is an analogy (like "piston stroke") - it isn't a redefined word.

pj
chgo
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I think with some thought we can do better.
 
"Pendulum" clearly conveys the most important feature of the stroke: the unmoving pivot at the elbow. A better term would have to do that and more.

"Pendulum stroke" is an analogy (like "piston stroke") - it isn't a redefined word.

pj
chgo
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Fran:
I think with some thought we can do better.
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Doesn't seem broken to me, but I wish you luck.

pj
chgo
 
I don't mean to drag this out but things are coming to mind as I think about this. I think the main problem I have with the term 'pendulum' is that in theory, all strokes are pendulums at address and no strokes are pendulums when in motion.

If the main concern in defining that particular stroke is that the elbow is fixed, then maybe it should be just called the fixed elbow stroke.
 
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FranCrimi said:
I don't mean to drag this out but things are coming to mind as I think about this. I think the main problem I have with the term 'pendulum' is that in theory, all strokes are pendulums at address and no strokes are pendulums when in motion.

If the main concern in defining that particular stroke is that the elbow is fixed, then maybe it should be just called the fixed elbow stroke.
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Fran,

What simplicity. No anaylogies for possible misinterpretation. No similies. No mystical 'The Pit & the Pendulum'. No interpretor needed.

Just a plain english language description, 'The Fixed Elbow Stroke'. Brilliant! Simply Brilliant! Have you trademarked that phrase?

And... those new to the game would not need an interpreter to explain 'The Pendulum Stroke'.

Maybe for marketing reasons, the 'Simplistic Short Sleeve Stroke' or the 'Quad S' would be better. Those are much more catchy than just 'the fixed elbow stroke'. No... those would still require an interpretor.

It would just be 'the fixed elbow stroke' vs 'the elbow drop stroke'. One more word & part in 'the elbow drop stroke' so it is more complex.

Just think of all the key strokes that could have been saved if it were simply called 'the fixed elbow stroke'.

Nope... sorry Fran. It won't work. Your phrase the 'Fixed Elbow Stroke' has 18 keystrokes in it including the space bar. 'Pendulum Stroke' only has 15 keystrokes including the space bar. The 'Pendulum Stroke' is much more simple & easier to type than your, 'Fixed Elbow Stroke'.

All sarcasm aside, I think it is a fine idea & could only come from an intelligent, no nonsense, common sense, kind of person. I think it should be made mandatory immediately.

I congratulate you. Now comes the hard part. Convincing those other than you & me.

Regards & Best Wishes,
 
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Yeah, I'd ignore the fact that 98% of the world can easily associate pendulum stroke with the look and motion and rename it to satisfy the 2% that doesn't. Would prove that common sense really isn't that common these days.

pendulum.gif
 
FranCrimi said:
I don't mean to drag this out but things are coming to mind as I think about this. I think the main problem I have with the term 'pendulum' is that in theory, all strokes are pendulums at address and no strokes are pendulums when in motion.

If the main concern in defining that particular stroke is that the elbow is fixed, then maybe it should be just called the fixed elbow stroke.
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I like it!

Imagine a beginner being asked to relate what he/she thinks is meant by the term pendulum stroke. I would think their description would involve a description of how the hand moves possibly ignoring the critical need for a fixed elbow. Now imagine a beginner describing what they think is meant by fixed elbow stroke...much more precise a description would ensue...in my opinion.

Good idea!

Ken
 
nobcitypool said:
Yeah, I'd ignore the fact that 98% of the world can easily associate pendulum stroke with the look and motion and rename it to satisfy the 2% that doesn't. Would prove that common sense really isn't that common these days.

pendulum.gif
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This is missing a joint at the grip that removes the arc and keeps the cue on a level plane :)
 
nobcitypool said:
Yeah, I'd ignore the fact that 98% of the world can easily associate pendulum stroke with the look and motion and rename it to satisfy the 2% that doesn't. Would prove that common sense really isn't that common these days.

pendulum.gif
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Hi Mr. Nob,

You've left out 98% of the human body.

If you asked 100% of the human population what a pendulum has to do with a pool cue hitting a cue ball, what answer do you think you woud get. How many would say 'well part of it resembles a pendulum'. How many of them even know how & why a pendulum works.

Example #1

'Keep your elbow still (or fixed) & then just take your arm back, pause, and then swing it to the finish where your shoulder meets your chest. That's what WE call the SPF or the pendulum stroke.

'Why is it called that?' (Interpretation needed)

'Well, SPF stands for Set, Pause, Finish & we call it a pendulum stroke because the forearm swing resembles what a pendulm looks like when it swings.'

Or...

Example #2

'Now keep your elbow still or fixed & take it back, pause. & then swing through till your hand meets your chest. That's what is called the fixed elbow stroke.'

Oh I get it, keep my elbow still.

'Correct'

I thought it was all about Keep It Simple Stupid?

Have a nice day Mr. Nob:wink:
 
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A fixed elbow is one that is fixed in place, i.e. doesn't articulate.

Next suggestion? "Fixed shoulder stroke", perhaps?

How 'bout "pendulum stroke" and let's move on to what is a good pendulum stroke as opposed to a poor pendulum stroke.
 
Slasher said:
This is missing a joint at the grip that removes the arc and keeps the cue on a level plane :)
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Yup, methinks that's how Judd Trump flattens-out the arc in his otherwise nearly-perfect pendulum stroke.

And, the name is given due to the motion of the grip hand in relation to the elbow (an arc sweeping around a fixed point). Not whether the motion is gravity-fed or muscle-fed.

I think we're getting too caught up in the "pendulum = fed by gravity, and therefore is a misnomer for this type of stroke" thing.

-Sean <-- prefers grass-fed pendulums; no hormones or antibiotics
 
Slasher said:
This is missing a joint at the grip that removes the arc and keeps the cue on a level plane :)
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Ahh, but, no. In a pendulum stroke, the hand comes up, the tip goes down. voila!

I don't see a problem in nomenclature here. Now, granted I'm coming to this a little late, but I've read through most of the relevant posts, and I just don't see the problem. Of course the stroke is not a true pendulum, because a true pendulum is driven by gravity only, but the rest of the analogy holds.
 
Sloppy Pockets said:
A fixed elbow is one that is fixed in place, i.e. doesn't articulate.

Next suggestion? "Fixed shoulder stroke", perhaps?

How 'bout "pendulum stroke" and let's move on to what is a good pendulum stroke as opposed to a poor pendulum stroke.
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No, "Fixed upper arm".
 
English, the pendulum stroke ignores the rest of the body because at the time the stroke occurs, the rest of the body shouldn't be moving. Which part of that are you struggling to comprehend? The only exception is the wrist/hand but that could stimulate an entire other argument/debate.

I don't understand the fixation on gravity. Pendulum refers to a movement. The pendulum movement often associated with a grandfather clock certainly isn't gravity driven.

If you can't accept how adding another moving part to a motion complicates things and makes it more complex, there is no reason to have or continue this conversation. Either you "get that" or you don't.
 
nobcitypool said:
I don't understand the fixation on gravity. Pendulum refers to a movement. The pendulum movement often associated with a grandfather clock certainly isn't gravity driven.

If you can't accept how adding another moving part to a motion complicates things and makes it more complex, there is no reason to have or continue this conversation. Either you "get that" or you don't.
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Yes, it is. There's an auxiliary helper (which also can be gravity driven) that helps the pendulum overcome friction (at its pivot point) and drive the rest of the mechanism, but it's gravity driven.

But, the gist of your post still stands. The pendulum stroke being discussed is not dependent on gravity in any sense.

And, yes, the beauty of the stroke lies in its simplicity.

[edit: I gotta go back through this thread and find out what the controversy is, because I don't get it.]
 
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swest said:
Yes, it is. There's an auxiliary helper (which also can be gravity driven) that helps the pendulum overcome friction (at its pivot point) and drive the rest of the mechanism, but it's gravity driven.

But, the gist of your post still stands. The pendulum stroke being discussed is not dependent on gravity in any sense.

And, yes, the beauty of the stroke lies in its simplicity.

[edit: I gotta go back through this thread and find out what the controversy is, because I don't get it.]
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swest, unless some external force is acting upon the mechanism, gravity alone will not allow it to continuously stay in motion.
 
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