What's Left for Efren?

yobagua said:
One thing I hope Efren will do is mentor some young up and coming players. It would be nice to see an American player take something from Efren and build on that. I know Corey learns something every time he plays him. That would make EFREN a complete master.
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I saw the color of money match between Efren and Earl, the young"ish" american commentator mentioned he spent a month with Efren in the Phillipines playing and learning as much as he could. So he's got that covered aswel. How much would you pay for that?
 
sjm said:
As for your suggestion that quite a few today could run 400 on a tight table such as a diamond pro, do you really believe that to be true after players like Harriman, Engert, Pagulayan, and Deuel, and Schmidt all failed to make it as far as 150 at Derby City over the past week at Derby City? My opinion is that there is not even one player that has ever played the game that would be capable of running 400 on a diamond pro.
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Hi sjm,
Do you know what kind of percentages these top players were able to run their hundreds at....one in 10 attempts? If a player can make a hundred one in ten, they should make a 200 in 100 attempts and a 300 in 1,000 attempts and a 400 in 10,000 attempts.

With a measure like that, it's not to hard to statistically interpolate how many attempts it should take for one of these players to shoot a 400.

Endurance and mental barriers may come into it a bit, but it would give a fairly good idea I believe.

Robert Byrnes had some discussion on this aspect of prediction in his 'Advanced' book.
 
Colin Colenso said:
Hi sjm,
Do you know what kind of percentages these top players were able to run their hundreds at....one in 10 attempts? If a player can make a hundred one in ten, they should make a 200 in 100 attempts and a 300 in 1,000 attempts and a 400 in 10,000 attempts.
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Colin, I'm guessing that without the endurance factor, 1 in 10,000 for somebody like a Hohmann is probably about right on a tight table. With the endurance factor, however, I think it's more like 1 in 40,000. If that's correct, it means that if Hohmann tried to accomplish the feat three times a day every day of the year, he could only expect to run 400 once every 36 years.

On a tight diamond pro, 400 can't be done. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. Theoretically possible, yes. In practice, impossible.
 
sjm said:
Colin, I'm guessing that without the endurance factor, 1 in 10,000 for somebody like a Hohmann is probably about right on a tight table. With the endurance factor, however, I think it's more like 1 in 40,000. If that's correct, it means that if Hohmann tried to accomplish the feat three times a day every day of the year, he could only expect to run 400 once every 36 years.

On a tight diamond pro, 400 can't be done. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. Theoretically possible, yes. In practice, impossible.
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I agree SJM, 400 on a tight table seems highly
unlikely at best. In fact, Every big run (250+) that
I've seen or even heard about was done on a loose
table. Even John Schmidt who we all know has run 400
balls said that he was very proud of his 114 ball run
on a tight diamond table at lasy year DCC in a match
with Pagulayan. That says a lot about how hard it is
to run balls on those tables.

What no one has mentioned yet is Mosconi's run on
a 5 x 10 table, which I believe was 365. To me that's
about as impressive a record as any I've ever heard
of.

Bobby
 
sjm said:
First, Mosconi's run was on a 4 x 8. This is very well known.
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Yes it was on a 4x8 table. Here are some interesting links and one of these is the a copy of the affidavit signed by all the witnesses. Pretty cool stuff here.

http://americanhistory.si.edu/archives/d9744.htm
http://americanhistory.si.edu/archives/images/d9744-4.jpg <--affidavit

There is also a link to a scan of a poster from when Willie was 11 years old. Circa 1924.

http://americanhistory.si.edu/archives/images/d9744-5.jpg

George
 
Luckily, Mosconi's greatness as a player is not dependent on this record. He dominated against some of the greatest players of all time. Mosconi beat the best of the best in tournament after tournament for decades. Ask people who saw him in exhibitions. It was unusual if he didn't run at least 100 balls. IMHO, there are two main problems with comparing today's players to those of yesterday- 1. The equipment is different. Today's playing conditions are much more player friendly. 2.There was no Accu-Stats or ESPN back then. Very little film of those players in their primes has survived. So Mosconi's (and Crane's, and Cranfield's, and Greenleaf's, etc........) best playing will never be seen by today's pool fans. Want to seen Efren in high gear? Buy a tape. Want to see Mosconi? Too bad. That's where you have to consult the record books.

So as far as these other supposed higher runs are concerned- Who knows? Maybe someone has run more than 526. Maybe Mosconi ran more than 526. He may have run 1000. This run was documented by witnesses at an exhibition. Let's see if that easy playing table with the bucket pockets is still around and have a tournament. Want to bet some money on whether any player alive can run 527 on it using the same type of balls and cloth used for Mosconi's exhibition?

I think Efren is a great player (his all around game might be the best ever), but it seems like a lot of people want to bash Mosconi and his contemporaries. I would take Mosconi in his prime any day against any other player (yes even Efren) in a straight pool match. And that is why (to me) it is fitting that Mosconi has this official record high run. Because the greatest 14.1 player should own the most prized 14.1 record.
 
I come with Track & Field background.For RATIFICATION of any world record (in any track events ) claimed by any one from any country in the world,there are certain conditions to be met.International association WILL NOT RATIFY that claim if all the conditions are NOT met.In pool do we that kind of regulations? I have not seen any rules refering to such matters.
 
Efren the Teacher

Efren could retire from competition and open up the Greatest Billiards school in the History of pool !!!!!!! :)
 
Is it just me, or does anyone else think this high-run record of 526 is a completely overrated record? Yes, it sure is an extraordinary one-time accomplishment, but a streak such as this is seeped with luck and I don't think it's accurate to assess someone's ability on a one-time high run. Rather, a better gauge of one's ability is how consistent one can run a high number of balls, say 50. IMO, someone with 11 consecutive 50 ball runs is a better gauge of a player's ability than a one-time run of 550.

Anyway, to get back on subject, I agree with Blackjack that Efren is the greatest all-around player in the history of pool, no question. What's left for Efren? An IPT World Championship would be nice. ;)
 
jsp said:
Is it just me, or does anyone else think this high-run record of 526 is a completely overrated record? Yes, it sure is an extraordinary one-time accomplishment, but a streak such as this is seeped with luck and I don't think it's accurate to assess someone's ability on a one-time high run. Rather, a better gauge of one's ability is how consistent one can run a high number of balls, say 50. IMO, someone with 11 consecutive 50 ball runs is a better gauge of a player's ability than a one-time run of 550.

Anyway, to get back on subject, I agree with Blackjack that Efren is the greatest all-around player in the history of pool, no question. What's left for Efren? An IPT World Championship would be nice. ;)
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Be the first person to make a million dollars in pool in one calendar year?

Anyone know if this has been done yet? I was thinking in terms of prize money actually.
 
AS far as this run record stuff is concerned. I think we leave the past in the past and just start anew. The powers that be, should set the equipment conditions and that be that. Then allow the record to evolve naturally, without all this past comparison stuff. This doesn't take away form the past, it is just setting a standard for the modern high run.
 
JLW said:
Want to seen Efren in high gear? Buy a tape. Want to see Mosconi? Too bad. That's where you have to consult the record books.
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I don't think we'll be able to see Efren's game at his prime because as he've said a number of times, his best was way back during the 70's!!! No tapes to these, I think. Now ain't that a shame
 
bud green said:
Since it seems that Efren has won everything there is in pool almost and is clearly the best player alive, whats left for him to accomplish?

My pick: someone should set up a table like Mosconi had when he ran 526 balls (8' table with buckets) and offer Efren a million bucks if he can break Mosconis' record. I still think that most people believe this is the greatest record in pool.

Efren breaks that record and even Mosconi fans might have to concede that he was the greatest talent ever.

What do people here think of Thomas Engerts 491 on a 9' table? Does it compare to Mosconis' record?

Does a bigger table make it harder due to longer distances for shotmaking or is it easier because you have more room to maneuver? I tell friends that its just as big an accomplishment but they usually say "Yeah, but it's not 526".
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that would be something to see, my .02 i think the bigger tables make it easier to maneuver around and less cluster of balls.
 
> It was Charles Ursitti I think that said in an interview that someone had told Willie the 526 record had been breached,so he had Charles rack for him on his home table. He was said to have ran a 589,missed,and ran an unfinished 609. Eufemia was,in a sense,more consistent on his home table than Mosconi was,it's been well documented that he had a 200 ball run every single night for 10 years straight. People would line up 30-40 deep to bet on it too. A 400 run on a tight Diamond would be a remarkable feat,but as rarely as 14.1 is played at the world class level in structured competition,seems unlikely. Tommy D.
 
I think most people believe that 526 has been surpassed but not by anyone who had spectators who watched the run in its entirety. I personally feel that Cranfield, Eufemia, and Mosconi all ran more than that but not in conditions that were strict enough (spectators signing affadavits,etc...) to change peoples' minds about the 526.

Too bad Eufemia played different under pressure; I've heard his patterns were perfect and he ran 300's almost every week. He could of been a HOF'er if he competed at that same level.

What kind of balls did Mosconi use for his run? Ivory or composite? I believe equipment today is a lot better but for 14.1,the cloth and balls won't have quite the huge effect they would when playing nine ball. I doubt Mosconi was doing table length draws or power stroking the ball around the table too much. Besides, the guy never even had a tough shot...:D
 
I have been silent for a long time when I first NOTICED this POST. Comparing Efren with Mosconi. It like comparing the First Green Bay Packers Team to win the Super Bowl with the Teams of 2006 trying to get into the Super Bowl of 2006. Don’t WASH with me.

Efren could be the The Greater Player of 2005 & 2006, but it is unfair IMO to compare him Mosconi, or to Thomas Engerts or any of the other GREAT's of their ERA.

As Tables, Cue, and Playing Conditions were different back than when Mosconi, or Thomas Engerts were playing.

Like I said it just don’t wash with me it is like comparing Apples & Oranges. Both are Fruit, but totally different.

Efren is Great, but the GREATEST... I do not think so. IMO....

:rolleyes:
 
jsp said:
Is it just me, or does anyone else think this high-run record of 526 is a completely overrated record? Yes, it sure is an extraordinary one-time accomplishment, but a streak such as this is seeped with luck and I don't think it's accurate to assess someone's ability on a one-time high run. Rather, a better gauge of one's ability is how consistent one can run a high number of balls, say 50. IMO, someone with 11 consecutive 50 ball runs is a better gauge of a player's ability than a one-time run of 550.

QUOTE]

You have to be joking. Wilie played THE BEST 14.1 for 20 years and had 15 WORLD titles. Running 50, and running 100 are 2 completely different animals. 200 is another giant plateau. 400+ is only done by the elite. You can run 50 100 times, never break 100 and you'd be considered a mediocre 14.1 player. Also, no player will ever run a 1 time 550, because they would have made multiple 100/200/300 ball runs before getting there. I run 50's weekly and only have 3 100+ ball runs in the last 10 years. I'm an o.k. 14.1 player by North Eastern standards. Sorry if I came accross strong in this post, but I love the game, and I"m very passionate about straight pool......

Gerry
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Renegade said:
I don't think we'll be able to see Efren's game at his prime because as he've said a number of times, his best was way back during the 70's!!! No tapes to these, I think. Now ain't that a shame
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You might not see him at his best, but you can see him playing at an extremely high level. Not so with Mosconi. You don't get to see him play at anywhere near his best. Pretty much any tape you see of him is after his stroke and well past his prime. The tape that has survived is usually pretty grainy and tough to follow. If there were some high quality tape of him, I think a lot of his detractors would realize the awesome talent he really was. I was always a big Sigel fan, but, I never really understood his 14.1 greatness until I watched the 1992 US Open match with Zuglan. His control, concentration and confidence were remarkable. One can only wonder what a tape of Mosconi in his prime would be like.
 
Gerry said:
jsp said:
Is it just me, or does anyone else think this high-run record of 526 is a completely overrated record? Yes, it sure is an extraordinary one-time accomplishment, but a streak such as this is seeped with luck and I don't think it's accurate to assess someone's ability on a one-time high run. Rather, a better gauge of one's ability is how consistent one can run a high number of balls, say 50. IMO, someone with 11 consecutive 50 ball runs is a better gauge of a player's ability than a one-time run of 550.

QUOTE]

You have to be joking. Wilie played THE BEST 14.1 for 20 years and had 15 WORLD titles. Running 50, and running 100 are 2 completely different animals. 200 is another giant plateau. 400+ is only done by the elite. You can run 50 100 times, never break 100 and you'd be considered a mediocre 14.1 player. Also, no player will ever run a 1 time 550, because they would have made multiple 100/200/300 ball runs before getting there. I run 50's weekly and only have 3 100+ ball runs in the last 10 years. I'm an o.k. 14.1 player by North Eastern standards. Sorry if I came accross strong in this post, but I love the game, and I"m very passionate about straight pool......

Gerry
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Interesting you say that Gerry, as I used to run a 50 nearly every decent snooker match session, but never made a hundred. Statistics would suggest I should have made quite a few centuries, but the pressure used to build as the numbers climbed.

It takes time to battle past mental barriers.
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