That drill is outdated, and doesn't work for someone who is trying to develop a pendulum stroke. The bottle drill necessitates an elbow drop.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
What's the best way to test my stroke and how to improve it?
- Thread starter Gogafem
- Start date
Dave...I respectfully disagree...for many reasons! :grin: The stop shot is far more critical than the replacement shot.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Why is the stop shot more critical than the repalcement shot? I think the stop shot is easier. Please elaborate. Thank you.
The stop shot is way more applicable to playing better pool (tangent lines and whatnot), but there's no way practicing stop shots builds a better stroke. There's a big difference between the two.
Stop shots (as critical as they are) don't require one's stroke to truly fire through the core of the ball. The replacement shot does. Being able to control that 1 1/8" after contact is what determines a stroke, imo. I agree that the stop shot is more crucial - but that wasn't the question.
P.S. I just realized this is our 3rd or 4th time disagreeing on this topic. I'll agree to disagree w/ you
P.P.S. Maybe a compromise would be to say, "Practicing stop shots with as little low as humanly possible" can help build a stroke. Imo, people who practice stop shots loaded up with draw are cheating themselves (if stroke is what they seek).
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Dave...You're right, we've disagreed about this before. The highlighted sentence shows me that you need to learn more about stop shots. The next time we meet, I'll show you MD 6, and I got $50 that says you cannot perform the drill...and you're right, Kinister's shot #1 is FAR more difficult...and far less useful in everyday poolplaying.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
The stop shot is way more applicable to playing better pool (tangent lines and whatnot), but there's no way practicing stop shots builds a better stroke.What? That is simply not true! There's a big difference between the two.
lstevedus...First of all, because stop shots are needed and used 100x more frequently than the replacement shot. Second, the replacement shot is difficult to do with consistency when the distance between the two balls is 1-2 diamonds. At 5 diamonds (Kinister's shot #1 on a 9' table) the shot is far more difficult, and subject to many small stroke errors. Third, the necessity of using the replacement shot just doesn't come up very often.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
....but, far more effective in building stroke
You keep confusing what's useful in every day playing versus what's useful in building a killer stroke.
I'll bet $50 on any drill as long as you play too. Then, we'll follow-up the $50 on the Kinister drill playing "closest to the base" to determine the winner for each. I mean this as friendly competition, of course.
I think the stop shot drills would be close because stop shots are cake. I think I'm a lock for the kinister drill, however.
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None of this has to do with building a better stroke. Everything above is correct for improving play in general, but just because stop shots come up 100x more often, doesn't mean they're better at building a better stroke.
HOW DID YOU DO WITH THE SHOT FROM THE LINK???:grin:
Very true. MD # 1 and 2 will build and test your stroke...but only if you know what you are looking for when you do them.
Steve
I agree Steve and the full extrapolation of MD #6 with following forward 1 2 and 3 diamonds as well as drawing 1 2 or 3 diamonds on command from any distance between the cue ball and object ball is a real challenge for almost anyone.
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Mr. Jewett. It is a pleasure to speak at you (or to you) and I have the utmost respect for you! I have read many of your articles and still have some around here somewhere! I have so many books that it is insane!
I do believe that the only way is to get an instructor in that case. Trial and error does not work, (at least in my case.) You can trial and error yourself to death and never find your problem. What you think it is, and what it really is, just might be two different things. I will agree that you might get a little better just by the h.a.m.b. method, but i think you can save a lot of aggravation and make more of those million balls with a good instructor. Again this is j.m.o.
Frank
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my understanding has always been
you should be able to hit a stop shot and the replacement shot with the same speed of stroke
the difference is the minute difference in tip place ment
to get the very small amount of roll to replace the object ball
i never thought the stroke was the deciding factor
as stroke builders they reinforce that you can drive the cue straight and find the vertical axis and not put any unintentional spin on the ball
if the above is true then both shots develop strokes equally just that the replacement shot is more difficult
the stop shot is equally effective for developing stroke and more practical
is my understanding correct???
very sorry for a mini hi jack but i do think its related to the op
i hope that both scott and dave reply
and of course anyone else
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I think my point a few posts ago states my position a little better. Stop shots and replacement shots that are loaded up with low really don't accomplish anything. Based on your post, I agree--- as long as the replacement shot and stop shot use as little low as humanly possible.
Scott and I obviously have difference of opinion on the topic and for some reason he always comes with "I'll bet $____".
Fact is, most people can execute a stop shot behind the back and under a leg. That alone really doesn't show/prove someone has a good stroke. One can just load up on draw and whack the CB and there you have it - a stop shot. Now, to do the same thing with as close to center ball as humanly possible - that's a different story. You just can't "whack" it anymore--- now it requires you to be precise and STROKE the shot.
That's why the replacement shot is a better stroke-builder yet. It goes one click beyond what I described above and forces you to a position closer to the center of the CB (replacement shots loaded up with draw do NOT count). More precision with a faster stroke speed.
I'll leave it at this: Just because stop shots come up 200000x more than replacement shots doesn't mean they're better for your stroke. If you can perform a replacement shot from any distance, you already know how to stop at any distance. The reverse is not necessarily true because (as I said) most people who practice stop shots do so by using a ton of low, which isn't practice at all, imo (they lag the CB all the way to the OB, using the low to prevent the CB from turning over versus using speed). So, the replacement teaches you how to slide the CB to the OB by hitting super close to center ball.
Like I said, it's a difference in opinion. I'm not puffing when I say I shot Shot#1 countless times.... and I mean countless. There's a certain sensation/feedback you get from executing it perfectly (especially on a 9'er) that you simply don't get from stopping the CB. This is my last post forever on Shot#1 so Scott and I have nothing left to argue about
Scott and I obviously have difference of opinion on the topic and for some reason he always comes with "I'll bet $____".
Fact is, most people can execute a stop shot behind the back and under a leg. That alone really doesn't show/prove someone has a good stroke. One can just load up on draw and whack the CB and there you have it - a stop shot. Now, to do the same thing with as close to center ball as humanly possible - that's a different story. You just can't "whack" it anymore--- now it requires you to be precise and STROKE the shot.
That's why the replacement shot is a better stroke-builder yet. It goes one click beyond what I described above and forces you to a position closer to the center of the CB (replacement shots loaded up with draw do NOT count). More precision with a faster stroke speed.
I'll leave it at this: Just because stop shots come up 200000x more than replacement shots doesn't mean they're better for your stroke. If you can perform a replacement shot from any distance, you already know how to stop at any distance. The reverse is not necessarily true because (as I said) most people who practice stop shots do so by using a ton of low, which isn't practice at all, imo (they lag the CB all the way to the OB, using the low to prevent the CB from turning over versus using speed). So, the replacement teaches you how to slide the CB to the OB by hitting super close to center ball.
Like I said, it's a difference in opinion. I'm not puffing when I say I shot Shot#1 countless times.... and I mean countless. There's a certain sensation/feedback you get from executing it perfectly (especially on a 9'er) that you simply don't get from stopping the CB. This is my last post forever on Shot#1 so Scott and I have nothing left to argue about
If you only accept a perfect stop shot then yes a stop shot as done in MD6 can help build a stroke.
Scott and I had this discussion in person some time ago. I too, was a big believer of Berts replacement shot. I cannot tell you how many hours I worked on that. He made me see the light with the stop shot drill.
I have replaced all of that work with MD6 it is in my mind a stroke builder and the practical applications in the game are there.
Scott and I had this discussion in person some time ago. I too, was a big believer of Berts replacement shot. I cannot tell you how many hours I worked on that. He made me see the light with the stop shot drill.
I have replaced all of that work with MD6 it is in my mind a stroke builder and the practical applications in the game are there.
No, one needs only a repeatable stroke to do this. You may say isn’t a repeatable stroke a good one? I say for that distance and a straight shot sure it’s great may not be for all shots though. Using a second ball, a stripe ball and overchalking your tip will give you much more info.
Sort of the same thing I advocate trying but you would have to make sure your spots are lined up perfectly and just because they were at installation doesn’t mean they are now, there are a few ways to do this.
The way I set this up is using the 1 and 11ball and setting them up like crosshairs 1 diamond away then try to make it kiss off the back rail and return to tip but with the understanding that this isn’t repeatable (at least not for me or any student I’ve had) it is more to see if there is some miss that is consistent to one side or the other. It takes some time to set up each time but the data gained is valuable.
Use numbered balls, set them up exactly, overchalk your tip so you can see where you struck the ball, look at how the stripes move do they wobble?, examine the ending positions and look at the paths. Identifying your problems is the 1st step to solving them. Even with the most basic form of this drill you can get some good info; does the cb miss coming back to your tip from 1 side or the other consistently?
One shot is not more or less difficult than the other. It just requires a different amount of speed or spin, depending on what you want to accomplish. A replacement is no more difficult than a stop shot, any more than a draw or follow shot is more difficult. They all require the same stroke...just different tip placement and speed.
Steve
Steve:
What you said is categorically false. There's no way you can say a replacement shot has the same level of difficulty as a stop shot.
In regards to having the same stroke, that's not necessarily true either. I know where you're going: "It's the same pendulum stroke. Therefore, it's the same stroke."
If you're practicing them correctly and for them to be equal in value, the speed would be a constant between the two and the tip offset would be the only variable. Otherwise, you're lag-replacing and lag-stopping -- neither of which build powerful strokes.
If what you said were true, I'll take the stop shot and "whoever" can take the replacement shot on a 9'er for nearly any amount of money. Whoever gets closest to the said base on each shot wins. It's so statistically unbalanced (even for great players), the two can't be considered equals with the other factors being equal (stroke/playing ability/etc).
Dave
Only because we practice and use stop shots much more often than we practice replacement shots. And yes, if the speed is the same, the only variable becomes tip placement. How much harder is it to move up a quarter of a tip on the cue ball?
What I'm saying is there is no difference in stroke for either shot. Only in the amount of speed/spin on the cue ball. So from that standpoint, one shot is not more difficult than the other. It may very well be that someone lacks the knowledge to execute one of them as well as the other, but that is not more difficult, it just reflects a lack of training.
Steve
What I'm saying is there is no difference in stroke for either shot. Only in the amount of speed/spin on the cue ball. So from that standpoint, one shot is not more difficult than the other. It may very well be that someone lacks the knowledge to execute one of them as well as the other, but that is not more difficult, it just reflects a lack of training.
Steve
You're probably right. I should probably shoot the shots a few times before I chirp.
Good luck everyone w/ building your strokes
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