What's the Ruling?

[Jude Rosenstock]

Why should it be illegal?

Honestly, I've always been under the assumption that any ball in the kitchen could not be played directly. Perhaps that's just how I've always played the game and seen the game played.

I thought this was an oversight but after reviewing your article, it's clear it was by design. Thanks for replying and thanks Mike for posting the article. I learned something today.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Evidently the wording is confusing to some. How could it be made clearer? This is not a rhetorical question as revisions of the rules are currently being considered.

 

[GoldCrown]

In any case, it is allowed by the current (2008) rules provided that the cue ball has crossed the headstring before it contacts the object ball. It's also allowed to shoot a masse shot that leaves but does not contact any cushion before returning to the kitchen to hit a ball. I haven't seen that in actual play, either.

Thanks for clarifying. Can't argue with this.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Evidently the wording is confusing to some. How could it be made clearer? This is not a rhetorical question as revisions of the rules are currently being considered.

I think your article should be attached to the kitchen rule.

 

[poolmouse]

I learned something today.

Are you sure you're not trying to get a spot?


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[zencues.com]

Oh well... BCAPL rules conflict with WPA rules

Aside from the BCAPL rules below... I have always played that any ball in the kitchen is unplayable unless you hit a rail first.

WPA world rules say otherwise and conflict with BCAPL rules.


http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook.aspx

OFFICIAL RULES OF THE BCA POOL LEAGUE

1-36 Shooting with Ball in Hand Behind the Head String


5. Situation: Player A calls the 1-ball in Pocket A, and then shoots from position C3, cutting the 1-ball into Pocket A. The cue ball is past the head string when it contacts the 1-ball.

Ruling: Foul. The 1-ball was behind the head string and was the first ball
contacted by the cue ball. The cue ball did not contact a cushion at a point
below the head string before contacting the 1-ball, nor was the cue ball's first
contact with a ball below the head string.

The fact that the cue ball crossed the head string before contacting the 1-ball is irrelevant.

See Figure 10-13. It has the exact set up as the OP.

 

[poolmouse]

Here's another...

http://www.wpa-pool.com/web/index.asp?id=121&pagetype=rules#6.11

6.11 Bad Play from Behind the Head String
When the cue ball is in hand behind the head string, and the first ball the cue ball contacts is also behind the head string, the shot is a foul unless the cue ball crosses the head string before that contact. If such a shot is intentional, it is unsportsmanlike conduct.
The cue ball must either cross the head string or contact a ball in front of or on the head string or the shot is a foul, and the cue ball is in hand for the following player according to the rules of the specific game.

 

[alphadog]

Evidently the wording is confusing to some. How could it be made clearer? This is not a rhetorical question as revisions of the rules are currently being considered.

Question I have is...Does the cueball have to leave the kitchen
or just cross the line?

Not being difficult I just believe shot as diagramed , cue ball will still
Be straddling the line.

I have had an opponent shoot this shot.I kidded him that I should video
it as Bob wants record of it! He only hot a hit failed to pocket
the ball.

 

[zencues.com]

Question I have is...Does the cueball have to leave the kitchen
or just cross the line?

Not being difficult I just believe shot as diagramed , cue ball will still
Be straddling the line.

Under current rules I think the base of the cue ball would be used.

This is the reason I think this is bad WPA rule.
How do you tell if the cue ball is all the way out of the kitchen (or the base of the ball if that is the determining factor)?

It creates a problem. Elminate the issue by using the BCAPL rule.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Why should it be illegal?

One issue I have here is, it creates a bit of an inconsistency. Take the below diagram for example. In this scenario, the object ball is outside the kitchen yet contact occurs in the kitchen. It seems the exact location of the ball determines whether or not it's "in play". But, that's not the case. Actually, for balls that are *in* the kitchen, the portion that is outside is legal. I get it but it creates new logic. Now there's a gray area for balls that sit on the line. It's in the kitchen but that doesn't mean you can't shoot at it directly.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Question I have is...Does the cueball have to leave the kitchen or just cross the line? ...

Somewhere else in the rules the point is made that the position of a ball is determined by its center. A ball with its center over the line is over the line. A ball with its center behind the line is behind the line. A ball with its center on the headstring is on the line (and not in the kitchen). If the center of the ball goes past the line, the ball has crossed the line.

Lots of time at tournaments is wasted redefining when a ball is or is not "over the line."

 

[alphadog]

Somewhere else in the rules the point is made that the position of a ball is determined by its center. A ball with its center over the line is over the line. A ball with its center behind the line is behind the line. A ball with its center on the headstring is on the line (and not in the kitchen). If the center of the ball goes past the line, the ball has crossed the line.

Lots of time at tournaments is wasted redefining when a ball is or is not "over the line."

Thanks! I play base of the ball and am often surprised but those who want to argue that.

 

[poolmouse]

Take the below diagram for example. In this scenario, the object ball is outside the kitchen yet contact occurs in the kitchen....[snip]...Actually, for balls that are *in* the kitchen, the portion that is outside is legal

It doesn't matter where the contact occurs, the object ball is not in the kitchen. The edge of the object ball don't matter.

It's all about the base of the ball...whether it's an object ball or the cue ball.


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[Jude Rosenstock]

It doesn't matter where the contact occurs, the object ball is not in the kitchen. The edge of the object ball don't matter.

It's all about the base of the ball...whether it's an object ball or the cue ball.


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No, I know. It's your last sentence that sort of makes my argument. It's about where the base of the ball actually lies. When it's out of the kitchen, the entire ball is regarded as out. You may play it any way you want, regardless of whether or not the cue-ball passes the line because the ball is technically playable.

But, when the ball is in, it does not possess the entire properties of where it lies because part of the ball can be out too. From a philosophical perspective, it's inconsistent. The entire ball should possess the properties for where it lies, just like if it were out of the kitchen.

I'll be honest (and this is directed more to Bob Jewett), I'm less concerned with the philosophy. I'm not the rules-maker (nor do I think I'd ever want that job). I just want the right answer. Initially, I thought the rules were worded wrong but after reading Jewett's article, I realized this was completely by design. Really, my sole concern is knowing what I'm allowed to do at the table without having a foul called.

 

[alstl]

6.11 Bad Play from Behind the Head String
When the cue ball is in hand behind the head string, and the first ball the cue ball contacts is also behind the head string, the shot is a foul unless the cue ball crosses the head string before that contact. If such a shot is intentional, it is unsportsmanlike conduct.
The cue ball must either cross the head string or contact a ball in front of or on the head string or the shot is a foul, and the cue ball is in hand for the following player according to the rules of the specific game.

 

[desmocourtney]

By the 6.11 rule above it would seem that since the cue ball has left the kitchen, the shot could be legal.

I would love to see that shot made regardless of legality.

Interesting thread.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

By the 6.11 rule above it would seem that since the cue ball has left the kitchen, the shot could be legal.

I would love to see that shot made regardless of legality.

Interesting thread.

Wait, do you mean pocketed or used as a break shot? Pocketing the ball is really not a big deal. I mean, maybe the diagrammed shot is tough but there are other shots that fall under this discussion (object-ball inside the kitchen, shooter has BIH) that are easier. And remember, shooter has BIH and can place the cue-ball right on the head-string. Technically, you can be nearly a ball's width above the object-ball and still obtain contact outside the kitchen. You just need that object-ball to have its contact-point sitting north of the line.

 

[desmocourtney]

I am interested in a ruling clarification, for a break shot, and would like to see the shot made as diagrammed, both.

Thanks

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I am interested in a ruling clarification, for a break shot, and would like to see the shot made as diagrammed, both.

Thanks

Okay, I'll state this again. I'm not really sure why anyone is hung-up on the specifics of the diagram. I was simply illustrating a point. I can create a shot that falls under this category and I'm sure I can figure-out a way to manufacture a break-shot from it. I can also record it, post it to youtube and provide the link here. OR, you can go to a poolroom and try it yourself. Why is it so important that someone prove it can be done? It can be done. So long as the angle is greater than 90 degrees (which it is), it falls under the paradigm of acceptable angles and even then, others have proven you can go beyond this threshold. From there, you have speed and spin that can get you to the rack. Does it change anything if I move the balls around and get a break from it? Does it change anything if I have to go two rails? I don't think so. I think the point of the discussion remains intact.

 

[DJKeys]

Somewhere else in the rules the point is made that the position of a ball is determined by its center. A ball with its center over the line is over the line. A ball with its center behind the line is behind the line. A ball with its center on the headstring is on the line (and not in the kitchen). If the center of the ball goes past the line, the ball has crossed the line.

Lots of time at tournaments is wasted redefining when a ball is or is not "over the line."

This is correct. On the pool table the intersection of a sphere and a plane is a point. This is technically the only place the cue ball touches the table.