What's the secret behind even points?

gluton1

gluton1

Schaller Custom Cues
Silver Member
What are some methods for getting even points? I turn the forearm down to the rough taper, cut the grooves in the forearm perfect with each other then glue the point stock in perfectly straight with each other but still come up with points that are off a hair. Any tips would be appreciated. Thanks in advance
 
It sounds like you are doing your first steps correctly. After attaching the forearm to handle, if the center of the cue has any wobble in it, wedge the center over in the end of the butt with small pieces of tape or paper, until the center joint turns true. Then take a taper pass and clean it up. Then fill the center hole with epoxy putty and re-center drill. Once you make sure the center joint is spinning true take a small taper pass and check the alignment of the points. Find the longest point and use the same tape in the center hole method on the forearm end this time. Take small passes until you get it all wedged so that the points cut down even. Then fill the hole and re-center drill. If the points wind up off no more than 1/8" when at final sanding size you can lightly sand the ends of the longest points to bring them back even with the rest. This will create a very tiny flat spot on the cue that your flow out coats of finish will take care of.
 
cueman said:
It sounds like you are doing your first steps correctly. After attaching the forearm to handle, if the center of the cue has any wobble in it, wedge the center over in the end of the butt with small pieces of tape or paper, until the center joint turns true. Then take a taper pass and clean it up. Then fill the center hole with epoxy putty and re-center drill. Once you make sure the center joint is spinning true take a small taper pass and check the alignment of the points. Find the longest point and use the same tape in the center hole method on the forearm end this time. Take small passes until you get it all wedged so that the points cut down even. Then fill the hole and re-center drill. If the points wind up off no more than 1/8" when at final sanding size you can lightly sand the ends of the longest points to bring them back even with the rest. This will create a very tiny flat spot on the cue that your flow out coats of finish will take care of.
Click to expand...

Great explanation!!!!!!!!! I would expect none the less.
 
cueman said:
It sounds like you are doing your first steps correctly. After attaching the forearm to handle, if the center of the cue has any wobble in it, wedge the center over in the end of the butt with small pieces of tape or paper, until the center joint turns true. Then take a taper pass and clean it up. Then fill the center hole with epoxy putty and re-center drill. Once you make sure the center joint is spinning true take a small taper pass and check the alignment of the points. Find the longest point and use the same tape in the center hole method on the forearm end this time. Take small passes until you get it all wedged so that the points cut down even. Then fill the hole and re-center drill. If the points wind up off no more than 1/8" when at final sanding size you can lightly sand the ends of the longest points to bring them back even with the rest. This will create a very tiny flat spot on the cue that your flow out coats of finish will take care of.
Click to expand...

I am glad you mention the tip sanding. I didn't want to say that for fear of being criticized. Because they go to infinity it is amazing how a little sanding can move them so much. I discovered this when I first started messing with cues many years ago but have never heard anyone else say they do it also. It has no effect on the the cue what so ever and can not even be detected. The points can be made perfect, not off at all not even a fraction with this method. So perfect it is amazing to someone looking at the cue later. Someone learning this trick today made all the reading of this board they have ever done worth it if this is new to them. Very nice tip to give out.

Should I mention jaw tapping again for those who spend forever trying to get something turning at zero with shims? Some tips and tricks are so easy yet a lot of people don't know them. They are not in the books, you learn them from doing or from other experienced people willing to share. Kind of like taking a bunch of stuff off on an engine to get to a part or bolt when there was a way to get at the part without doing hardly anything that is not in the book.
 
When doing points cut your v grooves when fore arm is real close to finish size glue in and turn to finish size at that point attach to the handle. you should never taper a fore arm when attached to the handle even points can then easliy be achieved
 
brianna187 said:
When doing points cut your v grooves when fore arm is real close to finish size glue in and turn to finish size at that point attach to the handle. you should never taper a fore arm when attached to the handle even points can then easliy be achieved
Click to expand...
If I am reading this right, your cutting your forearms and and handles to size and then putting them together aat finish size? I have know of some builders that dont join them together until there .020 over and then run a finish pass. I have to say that this is the first time I heard this...

Is there a advantage to doing it this way Lee?

I build all my forearms on a straight cut. My handle is also on a straight cut. Then I attatch them both and start the tapering process. That is why it takes me longer to build a cue than some!
 
i do mine the same as lee. jerry -r- showed me a way similar to lee. also lee and i have discussed this. then the final pass is taken its not all the way to the top of the point so they arent uneven.

after everything is ready to go together i dry fit. make sure its as true as i can get it. then i mark my spot. basicall to line the mark back up when epoxied. i leave my lathe set up between centers. then i put everything together. line my marks back up and put it immed back between centers.

i have my tool post just below the a joint in the wrap area. i dial it in close with the blunt side closest. then i check for run out. if there is runout i mark the high spot with a pencil and push that spot with my tool post then repeat until you get a good runout.. you have a good 5 minutes to get it right. doesnt seem like a long time but it is.....

i also hand sand with 220 to get the points perfect. i think alot of makers do this

hope this helps
 
Not indicators or re-centering the rear.
These are the real secret.
SharpiePaintAsst-L.jpg
 
gluton1 said:
What are some methods for getting even points? I turn the forearm down to the rough taper, cut the grooves in the forearm perfect with each other then glue the point stock in perfectly straight with each other but still come up with points that are off a hair. Any tips would be appreciated. Thanks in advance
Click to expand...

If you really have perfect-with-each-other-points in the forearm,
the error has to be introduced when you attach the handle to the forearm.

IMHO - the best way is to get the forearm running true in a steady-rest,
then hang the handle on. At that point, you should be able to drill
a center hole in the back end of the handle that is perfect and turn to final size.

FWIW - shims may work fine, but a four-jaw chuck is the way to go for
bumping the center around.

Dale(whose personal favorite playing cue has points that are way off)
 
pdcue said:
If you really have perfect-with-each-other-points in the forearm,
the error has to be introduced when you attach the handle to the forearm.

IMHO - the best way is to get the forearm running true in a steady-rest,
then hang the handle on. At that point, you should be able to drill
a center hole in the back end of the handle that is perfect and turn to final size.

FWIW - shims may work fine, but a four-jaw chuck is the way to go for
bumping the center around.

Dale(whose personal favorite playing cue has points that are way off)
Click to expand...

when you say hane the handle on what do you mean? ive done something similar to this. i dry fit as before make sure in as close as i can get. glue everything up and let it sit. then i chuck up the forearm right at the ajoint with the handle sticking out. with my lathe off i moved my center in to the back of the handle and lock it down. then the last few inches i cue straight to get rid of any wobble from the center being a hair off. then i take the cue out chuck it up at the back and center drill that little center hole deeper.

is this what you mean? i used to do it that way but still got a little movement in points

is this bc i have 16'' or so sticking out with no steady rest and the weight is throwing my center off?
 
dave sutton said:
when you say hane the handle on what do you mean? ive done something similar to this. i dry fit as before make sure in as close as i can get. glue everything up and let it sit. then i chuck up the forearm right at the ajoint with the handle sticking out. with my lathe off i moved my center in to the back of the handle and lock it down. then the last few inches i cue straight to get rid of any wobble from the center being a hair off. then i take the cue out chuck it up at the back and center drill that little center hole deeper.

is this what you mean? i used to do it that way but still got a little movement in points

is this bc i have 16'' or so sticking out with no steady rest and the weight is throwing my center off?
Click to expand...

What you describe is almost exactly what I used to do.

IMHO - if you have a "perfect points" forearm, you've got 'good' centers in
both ends - puting the back(A joint) end in a steady rest and the joint
end in the headstock, esp if you drive it with a live center - should
give you the best precision you can achieve with your machine.

I mentioned the 4-jaw because wood can and will still move, so you may
need to fine tune the centerline, even if you do start from
dead-nuts-perfect.

Again, IMHO - sounds like you were getting some movement of the
wood after truing the handle.

HTH

Dale

.........................................................................................................................

aditional thought:

some thin stock, plywood, shelving board, etc - with a 'V' cut in one edge can be used
to help support the handle dowel. Just make it adjustable to slide to the proper hieght so you
can get the handle spinning true in order to put in the center.
 
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pdcue said:
What you describe is almost exactly what I used to do.

IMHO - if you have a "perfect points" forearm, you've got 'good' centers in
both ends - puting the back(A joint) end in a steady rest and the joint
end in the headstock, esp if you drive it with a live center - should
give you the best precision you can achieve with your machine.

I mentioned the 4-jaw because wood can and will still move, so you may
need to fine tune the centerline, even if you do start from
dead-nuts-perfect.

Again, IMHO - sounds like you were getting some movement of the
wood after truing the handle.

HTH

Dale

.........................................................................................................................

aditional thought:

some thin stock, plywood, shelving board, etc - with a 'V' cut in one edge can be used
to help support the handle dowel. Just make it adjustable to slide to the proper hieght so you
can get the handle spinning true in order to put in the center.
Click to expand...

it wasnt much. i also did a few and spun by hand to try and eliminate the hanging factor, i will revisit that method

how do u feel about a pecking motion very lite to get the center
 
After I have attached my handle to the prong and the glue is all dry, if it doesn't run dead nuts I have a center steady rest that I put together with a roller bearing that is in perfect alignment with the spindle and tail stock. In this bearing I have a 4-jaw independent chuck mounted. I put the nose of the prong in the spindle chuck and the rear of the handle in the 4-jaw and with a dial indicator at the points I adjust the back of the handle until the points are running dead nuts again and then put a new center in the back of the handle. In this way centrifugal force or the grain in the wood cannot affect the placing of the new center. This seldom has to be done however if both faces, the prong and the handle have been cut perfectly square. When I dry test the a-joint if it isn't perfect I find out why before I permanently glue up. It almost always is some minor stupid thing like forgetting to chamfer the bored hole or connector. When I make my a-joint I always strive for as close of clearances as possible. Before I put in a couple of glue relief grooves the parts will make a popping noise when pulled apart. This assures good alignment.

Dick
 
I let my handles run a little long, and if I need to adjust the center slightly at the back of the handle after it's joined, I cut 1/4" or so off - so the back of the handle is flat, and lightly put the cue between centers. Set up an indicator right at the A-joint and slowly crank your live center into the back of the handle to make a temporary center. You can make fine adjustments by tapping on the handle right near the end next to the live center. Once I get it running true, I take a pass on the handle.
 
I really like the different ways people get the forearm to turning true once attached to the handle, as this is the most likely cause points get uneven. I have thought about the attaching the forearm once it it completely to size. But here is my theory and this is just an educated theory, so please don't get any hurt feelings:
If someone does not attach the forearm to the handle until all is at size, is this not because they cannot get everything turning perfectly true? They know with any run out their points will cut uneven. So would they not be putting a cue together that was not perfectly straight, just to hold the points even? If this is not the case, then they must be afraid that they can put a cue together perfectly, but it might warp in the final turning process. If it is the latter then I can understand why to do it. But if it is the former, they are robbing Peter to pay Paul. Am I missing something here?

A third option especially on wrapped cues would be to put the handle on slightly oversized, use the methods we have read about to get the forearm running true, then turn the handle and wrap groove down. Since holding points even in the forearm before attaching to the handle is easiest, lets discuss the best ways to proceed with the forearm already turned to size.
 
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