What's with all these pin types for cue joints?

[phreaticus]

My son and I are avid handgun shooters as well. He could handle a full-size 9mm like a pro (and shoot it accurately) by the age of 9. We were gearing up to compete in IPSC and IDPA until he discovered our pool table, and that's held his interest ever since. Don't get to the range that much now between my work, his college and our cue building, but still really enjoy it when we do.

Thats is very awesome. Congrats on having a great bond with your son, you sound like an amazing dad. My teen daughter does well at both shooting & pool also, but alas isn’t too interested in either, dang it. Softball & makeup has taken over for now, but at least she dives and skis with me...

Sounds like we need to converge at Hu’s place for a weekend BBQ this summer!

 

[JoeyInCali]

Those old 5/16 and 3/8 screws make the shaft wobble too much on the lathe .
The flat bottom , radial and Uniloc quick release screws make the shafts spin better on the lathe.
They make matching the shafts with the butt easier too .
Not gonna argue the hit .

 

[dirtvictim]

Exactly, piloted joint is the way to go.

Well not so much when you consider that it requires another seamed connection ie the joint collar that is only partly connected to the butt while a flat face wood-wood doesn't have that extra part so it in fact has a more secure connection by reducing parts. Adding more components actually makes for a flawed connection including a piloted shaft adding yet another part in the insert. If a wood thread is precise it is the best connection and most modern wood connections are very precise.
This isn't just my opinion it is provable.

 

[dirtvictim]

At risk of stirring up those dedicated to flat faced joints, flat faced joints are an inherently flawed design. The reason is simple. Screw threads are not suitable to locate anything precisely. Take the head on an automobile engine as an example. It may have over a dozen heavy bolts holding it on the engine block. If the bolts were adequate to locate the head precisely it would not have the two dowels or hollow pins that precisely locate the head on the block! Now, those with flat faced joints on a cue with one threaded connection think it is adequate to locate the joint? Depends on a person's idea of adequate I reckon.

The flaw in this thinking is that none of the individual bolts uses a locating pin, this is a rectangular item and uses the locating pins so everything lines up easier and faster. Comparing these two totally different things doesn't work in the real world because they do vastly different things.
A piloted joint isn't for aligning because that would presume the maker isn't good enough to line up the joint straight and of course that's an insult to makers. It's just another way of doing the joint is all but the use of multiple components actually compromises integrity especially using differing materials that do not bond well to each other. Less parts is better and wood-wood is better.
What players feel is the best is subjective and up to the individual.

 

[MmmSharp]

The flaw in this thinking is that none of the individual bolts uses a locating pin, this is a rectangular item and uses the locating pins so everything lines up easier and faster. Comparing these two totally different things doesn't work in the real world because they do vastly different things.
A piloted joint isn't for aligning because that would presume the maker isn't good enough to line up the joint straight and of course that's an insult to makers. It's just another way of doing the joint is all but the use of multiple components actually compromises integrity especially using differing materials that do not bond well to each other. Less parts is better and wood-wood is better.
What players feel is the best is subjective and up to the individual.

Don't take this the wrong way, but this is a purely subjective response. I am not opposed to someone saying their experience is that one joint is better than another because their performance is better with xyz joint. But To definitely say one is better than another without providing valid proof that is different other than personal opinion is misinformation in my opinion.

 

[Nyquil]

There definitely is a lot to choose from. The only pin type I don't like that I have experience with is uniloc. I had issues with my predator ikon coming loose a few times. One occasion it my last shot on the 8 ball cost me the match. Many however seem to love it. Peachauer seems to have a really nice semi quick disconnect that is solid. I got to play around with it at a local shop. Joint material as others have mentioned is likely a much bigger factor along with the tip. My carmeli plays stiff with the elforyn joint not sure the pin has much to do with it although it's beefy 3/8 10 modified. My next cue will likely be radial I like that a lot of makers use this joint type and I don't care about the extra few seconds of locking it down.

 

[ShootingArts]

Don't take this the wrong way, but this is a purely subjective response. I am not opposed to someone saying their experience is that one joint is better than another because their performance is better with xyz joint. But To definitely say one is better than another without providing valid proof that is different other than personal opinion is misinformation in my opinion.

There isn't really a "perfect" joint. Every one has some compromises. That is one reason there are so many of them. I have a feeling that the best joint design might be one I have only seen on very cheap "junk" cues!

Definitely my opinions here but based on facts and experience, the flat faced wooden joint probably transfers the most feel to the butt. The piloted joint with a floating pin locates the butt and shaft best, centering them. The material to build these out of is tricky though. Can't be subject to wear and as a general rule if both sides are made out of the same material they tend to gall and sometimes freeze together.

In between these two extremes are seemingly countless options. I used a pin with a shoulder. Works great, gives a lot of wood to wood contact. However it is unique to my cues or nearly unique so you aren't going to buy a shaft off of a shelf and fit my cue butt. Any 3/8"-10 shaft should be easily modified to fit my pin, however, this relies on how accurately the person modifying the pin indicates the shaft in a lathe. A typical pool cue lathe isn't capable of being dialed in to the accuracy needed and either will or won't run true with little way of adjusting things. Probably have to build custom soft jaws for that one job. Either way, it will sound like robbery if a person doesn't understand what is involved to do a precision modification after the fact. "All that is being done is cut away the threads for 3/8". The actual cut takes less than a minute. The set-up to make that simple cut may take an hour or more! Many shops refuse such work because customers don't understand what is involved and it is a high risk job with little return. A 1/1000" error isn't acceptable so a lathe with any slack might ruin a shaft.

Hu

 

[dirtvictim]

Don't take this the wrong way, but this is a purely subjective response. I am not opposed to someone saying their experience is that one joint is better than another because their performance is better with xyz joint. But To definitely say one is better than another without providing valid proof that is different other than personal opinion is misinformation in my opinion.

However I believe I have provided proof, more components introduce more possibility of failure and also more possibility of flaws in the individual components especially incompatible materials. It's a very defined response that targets obvious facts. I'm not saying that one design plays better than another, that is subjective to the user only and no one else, I'm just saying that a simple wood-wood joint is generally better in construction due to less components. Someone will be hard pressed to prove that wrong.

 

[iusedtoberich]

However I believe I have provided proof, more components introduce more possibility of failure and also more possibility of flaws in the individual components especially incompatible materials. It's a very defined response that targets obvious facts. I'm not saying that one design plays better than another, that is subjective to the user only and no one else, I'm just saying that a simple wood-wood joint is generally better in construction due to less components. Someone will be hard pressed to prove that wrong.

Well for example a very simple wood to wood joint as in a true sneaky pete without phenolic collars is prone to splitting failure. Less parts is often better but not always.

 

[MmmSharp]

However I believe I have provided proof, more components introduce more possibility of failure and also more possibility of flaws in the individual components especially incompatible materials. It's a very defined response that targets obvious facts. I'm not saying that one design plays better than another, that is subjective to the user only and no one else, I'm just saying that a simple wood-wood joint is generally better in construction due to less components. Someone will be hard pressed to prove that wrong.

I believe i understand what you are saying now. The simple design with less parts means less chance at flaws when executed with a flat face joint. Is that right ?

My take is none of the more popular joints of today are better or worse than each other. Each is different with pros and cons. When people start saying one is better than another they talking about their preferences and not how the joint is proven better or worse. I reread my post, i see i didnt explain this part of though process well.

I love a big pin flat face hit. Ivhave played with a big pin the last 8 to 9 years. 2012 OB (great cue before the quality issues). A carmelli, a cohen, a sugar tree and a lambros. I hate that cross threading a shaft is a potential risk that can ruin a shaft. I am always careful because of that risk. Along those same lines the wooden thread on a big pin tends to erode easier in my experience.

While my cues were big pins and my preference, that doesnt mean that they are better or worse than something else. I guess thats my real point.

 

[Bavafongoul]

Most folks know my predilection for flat faced ivory joints using a big pin.
But what one man likes another might disregard or even have disdain for.

It always comes down to one’s own subjective assessment of any cue’s joint.
There’s reasons that may be proffered why one style joint is better than another.

Hogwash....it is what the player’s hands and fingers tell them feels the best. The
truth is everyone is different & so there is no universally recognized best cue joint.

Just play with what you like and if you do, you’ll typically play better than if you chose
a different cue joint. When you enjoy or like something, the outcome generally is better.

 

[RickLafayette]

I thought manufacturers who chose the p/s for filler hole did so because it positioned operator out of roadway in the event she ran out of gas and needed to put fuel in on roadside...

This.

 

[ShootingArts]

I believe i understand what you are saying now. The simple design with less parts means less chance at flaws when executed with a flat face joint. Is that right ?

My take is none of the more popular joints of today are better or worse than each other. Each is different with pros and cons. When people start saying one is better than another they talking about their preferences and not how the joint is proven better or worse. I reread my post, i see i didnt explain this part of though process well.

I love a big pin flat face hit. Ivhave played with a big pin the last 8 to 9 years. 2012 OB (great cue before the quality issues). A carmelli, a cohen, a sugar tree and a lambros. I hate that cross threading a shaft is a potential risk that can ruin a shaft. I am always careful because of that risk. Along those same lines the wooden thread on a big pin tends to erode easier in my experience.

While my cues were big pins and my preference, that doesnt mean that they are better or worse than something else. I guess thats my real point.

Just had to say you have great taste in cues and builders!

Hu

PS, might be a little tricky after the fact but letting the thinnest available CA glue(super glue, crazy glue, etc) soak into the wood seems to substantially strengthen the wood with no drawbacks. Doing it during the building stage threads can be cleaned up if it is needed. There is a lot more to threads than just the nominal call out given typically so if you don't know how the thread is cut you can't do much to clean it up if needed. If you get to feeling brave you might try one side of the joint or the other. You can just pour it into a shaft let it soak a minute, and turn it upside down for the excess to drain out. Buy the glue from a supply house with a full line, not just off the shelf. I bought directly from the manufacturer last I purchased best I recall.

Hu

 

[dirtvictim]

Well for example a very simple wood to wood joint as in a true sneaky pete without phenolic collars is prone to splitting failure. Less parts is often better but not always.

I can agree with that as I have seen some split uncollared joints but I have also seen a fair share of piloted joints come apart and split at the insert as well as the inside wood part of the collar section. Nothing is infallible obviously but I had a 70's southwest that sat in a garage for who knows how long that has a flawless joint section however the shafts both had severe shrinkage at the collars but threaded up perfectly still.

 

[MmmSharp]

Just had to say you have great taste in cues and builders!

Hu

PS, might be a little tricky after the fact but letting the thinnest available CA glue(super glue, crazy glue, etc) soak into the wood seems to substantially strengthen the wood with no drawbacks. Doing it during the building stage threads can be cleaned up if it is needed. There is a lot more to threads than just the nominal call out given typically so if you don't know how the thread is cut you can't do much to clean it up if needed. If you get to feeling brave you might try one side of the joint or the other. You can just pour it into a shaft let it soak a minute, and turn it upside down for the excess to drain out. Buy the glue from a supply house with a full line, not just off the shelf. I bought directly from the manufacturer last I purchased best I recall.

Hu

Thanks Hu. I have to say over the years i have enjoyed your posts. I usually learn something or i hear a good story.

I dont have the touch to build things. I am too much of a hit it harder to fix it person. I accidently stripped the outside of a nut on a fence today with an adjustable wrench. thats my role in life when it comes to tools. I avoid finesse work and take my cues to someone i trust to fix things. I know the glue trick, only because the fellow i take my cues to showed me a few years back. I would never try it myself though.

I was lucky enough to meet an amateur pro and cue collector who let me try different cues. It was an eye opener for me eight years ago and since then i pick up one or two cues a year from a custom builder. Some i keep some i pass on. I never would have started if i didnt meet that fellow. Both a curse and blessing i guess. I prefer simple classic designs. Not a fan inlays. Gove me a full splice or classic four pointer with noce wood any day.

I got my hands on a tasc a month or so ago. Really itching to get out and play. In lockdown still in canada. Only played 50 or so games with it so far before this latest lockdown. Love it though. Great cue no complaints here. This one is a keeper.

 

[ShootingArts]

Thanks Hu. I have to say over the years i have enjoyed your posts. I usually learn something or i hear a good story.

I dont have the touch to build things. I am too much of a hit it harder to fix it person. I accidently stripped the outside of a nut on a fence today with an adjustable wrench. thats my role in life when it comes to tools. I avoid finesse work and take my cues to someone i trust to fix things. I know the glue trick, only because the fellow i take my cues to showed me a few years back. I would never try it myself though.

I was lucky enough to meet an amateur pro and cue collector who let me try different cues. It was an eye opener for me eight years ago and since then i pick up one or two cues a year from a custom builder. Some i keep some i pass on. I never would have started if i didnt meet that fellow. Both a curse and blessing i guess. I prefer simple classic designs. Not a fan inlays. Gove me a full splice or classic four pointer with noce wood any day.

I got my hands on a tasc a month or so ago. Really itching to get out and play. In lockdown still in canada. Only played 50 or so games with it so far before this latest lockdown. Love it though. Great cue no complaints here. This one is a keeper.

I am often guilty of the hammer theory of repair. If you can't fix it with a small hammer, get a bigger hammer. If you can't fix it with the bigger hammer, get a hot wrench!(torch)

A friend cut too much on a component for his pistol. He called me over to do a very touchy bit of welding, why I'll never know. Instead I used a file for a minute to cut more metal off of the component. "Damn, I would have never considered cutting more metal off!"

Tascarellas are pretty common around here and I have hit with a few. Never hit with a bad one so no surprise yours is a keeper. I am debating finding a cue by Edwin Reyes or a 3/4 jointed snooker cue. Neither do I need, I just want a keepsake from my old friend I never met and I'm curious about the hit of the snooker cue. They are still cut down from square by hand and I want one just for the craftsmanship involved. The last time I tried to buy a cue from England I naturally wanted to know what it cost in yankee dollars. I asked my converter how many dollars 799 pounds was and it rather snootily told me that you can't convert weight to currency! The queen seems like a grand old dame, should we ever meet I will delicately point out this little issue.

I usually write for enjoyment. Mine in particular and hopefully other people's. Occasionally I have a stray bit of knowledge, comes from taking more than a few paths through life. Thanks for letting me know you enjoy my posts. Enough do that after a thread's original question has been answered I don't mind tossing in a story or three.

Hu