When an employee 'hooks you up' on table time, do you tip them extra?
- Thread starter CreeDo
- Start date
For years I was comped my table time but I always had a bunch of people who would come in to join me and we all spent money on food and drink... Most of us ended up being regulars and spent most of our disposable income there....
When I say years like 10+... Different managers came and went and the story was always the same... they knew what was going on and were ok with it because it was a loss leader and they knew that the practice would get a bunch of us in there......
A few years ago they promoted an a$$hat to GM and he changed the way regulars were treated and upped the prices on everything including the table time....
I used to be there every night and spent a ton of money in the place... 1000-1300 a month.....and there were others like me many of whom spent more.....
I went in Saturday night and the place was a ghost town... Half the bartops were empty, several dart boards were open and there were pool tables a plenty for rent..... The last 5 times i have went it's been the same...
It's amazing how you can take a place that was packed with people spending money and change it so drastically....
The manager that changed the bar culture is now at a burger and fries joint where he belongs but the damage has been done.... The new manager is now taking the benefits away they have extended to the pool leagues for a decade, trying to get the revenue up again.....
I understand in Creedo's instance that it may be stealing if the owner is unaware... But for a bar you want a crowd... and the best way to get a crowd is to start with one...
Pool is one of the best loss leaders out there because comping it only costs a little more than having the table sit unused in an empty building....
Back to the question... Yes I tipped well back when I was taken care of... I also spent my money freely in the establishment... Today... I pay my table time and do not tip on it... I also am not so free with my other spending... They will be lucky to see $1000 from me in a year now instead of in a month.....
Chris
When I say years like 10+... Different managers came and went and the story was always the same... they knew what was going on and were ok with it because it was a loss leader and they knew that the practice would get a bunch of us in there......
A few years ago they promoted an a$$hat to GM and he changed the way regulars were treated and upped the prices on everything including the table time....
I used to be there every night and spent a ton of money in the place... 1000-1300 a month.....and there were others like me many of whom spent more.....
I went in Saturday night and the place was a ghost town... Half the bartops were empty, several dart boards were open and there were pool tables a plenty for rent..... The last 5 times i have went it's been the same...
It's amazing how you can take a place that was packed with people spending money and change it so drastically....
The manager that changed the bar culture is now at a burger and fries joint where he belongs but the damage has been done.... The new manager is now taking the benefits away they have extended to the pool leagues for a decade, trying to get the revenue up again.....
I understand in Creedo's instance that it may be stealing if the owner is unaware... But for a bar you want a crowd... and the best way to get a crowd is to start with one...
Pool is one of the best loss leaders out there because comping it only costs a little more than having the table sit unused in an empty building....
Back to the question... Yes I tipped well back when I was taken care of... I also spent my money freely in the establishment... Today... I pay my table time and do not tip on it... I also am not so free with my other spending... They will be lucky to see $1000 from me in a year now instead of in a month.....
Chris
It's sort of like a bartender pouring drinks super heavy all the time. The bartender gets more tips but the owner is getting ripped off.
They need a time system that is harder to cheat.
They need a time system that is harder to cheat.
This is how I look at it as well.
When I worked Pro Shop for a golf course, we were allowed to use our judgement when giving "comps" to various players for various reasons. We could comp cart fees, give out buckets of range balls, comp greens fees in some instances, etc. Whatever it takes to get the customer to feel special and have a good time. That's part of what it takes to gain the loyalty of the customer and keep them coming back. The 5 bucks you just lost on that bucket of range balls pales in comparison to the $300 he's going to spend that year that he might have spent at the course across town. People like to feel special, and they'll remember how they got "hooked up". That's earning repeat business.
Best posts in the thread.
And I worked in bars for 16 years, 3 of them at a pool hall.
Reward regulars who spend money. Charge leeches and deadbeats for everything.
This is how the bar business works. You reward good customers and generate goodwill. This is how you get regulars. If you have a good crowd of regulars your business is golden.
Of course it can be abused, but that's what managers and owners should be looking for. At some places I worked we had "every staff member can give away 2 drinks (or whatever) a night to cool customers". People who just hooked up their friends got the boot, the rest of the staff rewarded regulars and hooked up newcomers who seemed like good folks and a lot of the time they became regulars. This is how you grow your business in the bar world.
Oh by the way, in every single state in the Union you can give away a 'free' drink: even if you technically can't due to state law: you can always charge a single penny for a drink. A good trick on that is to keep a rocks glass by the till with pennies in it, say "I'd give you a free drink but the state says I can't, so I'll just charge you a penny...oh look someone dropped one." and use one of your penny stash coins. That system has been around forever.
If it wasn't clear already from my post, the free table time is not with the owner's consent.
A few other points I wanted to reply to:
"I would spend the extra money on drinks if I get table time free"
- so at the end of the day, the owner gets your money either way, but one way is honest, and with the owner's consent,
the other way is not honest, and he loses extra alcohol he could have kept in the bottle. Which does the boss prefer?
"Free or discounted drinks/pool is a great way to build and keep customers"
- I don't disagree, but it always must be with the manager/owner's permission.
He may already be running specials to get you in the door, it's not the waitresses' job to roll her own additional specials.
Typical example - a lot of people come for the ten dollar pool deal. Some employees treat the ten bucks like it's a
formality and 'forget' to charge you. So now the owner's small margin on table time just got reduced to nothing.
Personally getting my time cut in half does NOT make me more likely to come more often or spend more money.
I was going to shoot there anyway. I was prepared to spend full price.
That other half of the table time is simply lost money for the owner.
Renfro:
Why'd the management keep changing if the previous management was making them money?
Is it possible the price increases and cut benefits are to stop bleeding revenue you were unaware of?
Are you really spending like 90% less just because they asked you to pay for your drinks every time,
or upped table time a buck or two? Why does paying full price for everything bug you?
I never got a single thing free from Wendy's or Walmart but I keep coming back.
Maybe if those measures hadn't been taken the place would be closed by now.
Easy to judge from the armchair, they are trying to help their business and don't make those decisions lightly.
Ever get an extra drink on your tab?
No, but two wrongs don't make a right. Screwing the customer is no better than screwing the owner.
How about nobody gets screwed and employees just charge correctly?
A few other points I wanted to reply to:
"I would spend the extra money on drinks if I get table time free"
- so at the end of the day, the owner gets your money either way, but one way is honest, and with the owner's consent,
the other way is not honest, and he loses extra alcohol he could have kept in the bottle. Which does the boss prefer?
"Free or discounted drinks/pool is a great way to build and keep customers"
- I don't disagree, but it always must be with the manager/owner's permission.
He may already be running specials to get you in the door, it's not the waitresses' job to roll her own additional specials.
Typical example - a lot of people come for the ten dollar pool deal. Some employees treat the ten bucks like it's a
formality and 'forget' to charge you. So now the owner's small margin on table time just got reduced to nothing.
Personally getting my time cut in half does NOT make me more likely to come more often or spend more money.
I was going to shoot there anyway. I was prepared to spend full price.
That other half of the table time is simply lost money for the owner.
Renfro:
Why'd the management keep changing if the previous management was making them money?
Is it possible the price increases and cut benefits are to stop bleeding revenue you were unaware of?
Are you really spending like 90% less just because they asked you to pay for your drinks every time,
or upped table time a buck or two? Why does paying full price for everything bug you?
I never got a single thing free from Wendy's or Walmart but I keep coming back.
Maybe if those measures hadn't been taken the place would be closed by now.
Easy to judge from the armchair, they are trying to help their business and don't make those decisions lightly.
Ever get an extra drink on your tab?
No, but two wrongs don't make a right. Screwing the customer is no better than screwing the owner.
How about nobody gets screwed and employees just charge correctly?
I agree with this; a place that I go to practice regularly rarely charges me table time, and I have been going there for 10+ years (before I played pool as a matter of fact). But I think one reason that they comp my table time is that I always either order lunch/dinner, or drinks while or after I'm done playing. And I always take care of the waiter/waitresses who attend to the room. This is nothing more than a perk given to frequent customers who you know are going to spend money at your establishment.
A nightly comp tab for each staff person, or the manager, etc. is a pretty good idea. Then your staff want to make happy the customers who will give the biggest tip that night and over time, which is also in the owner's interest. The key to keeping it under control is that comps have to be cleared and written down in advance and that anyone who gives a drink away without writing it down is fired on the spot. No "oh, I forgot to write that one down" excuses.
Creedo,
They kept promoting the GMs to Regional and District positions because the Knoxville location was doing well...
And it actually went further than just paying full price... I had 13 players put on my table over the course of the night because that's the number of people who came and went... 1 player played 2 games at 5pm and ran off to his sons bball game.. he was still on my table at 2AM The pool tab was almost $200 for the night... I complained to corporate and got a $200 gift card and the new GM saw red and we never saw eye to eye....
The next issue I had was when he refused to honor some free hour of pool coupons I had given to me by the district manager after the $200 tab night.. The District manager used to be the local GM and knew what the revenue was for my group on a weekend....
I contacted corporate and pointed out the guy needed to manage a Krystals... He saw red again and had the district GM call me and tell me I had to play nice... I refused and quit going....He's now at Red Robins... Close enough for me.....
I'd say it's less than 10% of what I used to spend because I refused to vote for him staying there with my dollars and many people I know followed suit... He is gone but I am out of the habit of going there and no one I know goes anymore either so I am unlikely to start a new habit of spending money with them....
As far as financially needing to do what he did or they would have been closed already... I know several of the other managers and they were the GM's decisions not dictated by regional or district... The bar make far less now than when he took over..
Every time I am in they tell me I need to get the crew back together and start coming back in... I might do it at some point but truthfully I've called several of the old gang and they really don't want to set foot back in the place either... Just kind of put a bad taste in everyone's mouth knowing they'd rather have table 8 empty and making nothing than making 6-800 on it and giving us $60 in table time...
And before i forget... I used to maintain the tables between re-cloth...
Re-leveling, Tightening the rail bolts, fixing popped feather strips etc...
I would check all of the tables before recovery and give them a list of problems that needed addressed like bad rubber or slate pops...
I gave them maybe 20-30 red circle cue balls...
I was keeping them in Quickclean (a case every 2 months)and showed the staff how to use it and soda to keep beer from staining a table if they hurried...
I ran many of their tournaments for free and I steered everyone I ran into towards frequenting the place....
I ate the overpriced food ($9 cheeseburgers) and paid $8 for a pack of smokes that are $4 1 minute down the street.... A beer there is $7 a shot of Jaeger $8.50...
Why would I even consider continuing my patronage if it is no longer appreciated at the level it had been for over a decade??
Wow that was a ton of useless info LOL...
Sorry to have rambled..
Chris
Theft
I am the owner of a Bar/Restaurant with 3-8ft Diamond tables. I consider it flat out theft if a bartender consciously over pours, gives out free drinks or gives free table time to get better tips. A lot of times they simply do not look at it like that, but that is exactly what it is. They are taking money out of my pocket to put extra money in their pocket (in the form of better tips). I am VERY fortunate to have the employees that I do at my place, and I do understand that most places are not as lucky with their employees as I am, but I also treat my employees extremely well and like family. Most have been there for 10-15 years, and we rarely have turnover.
I am also lucky to have very good customers, so much so that many of them will go out of their way to tell me if they think an employee is over pouring or giving out free drinks (I know, again, Im in a very uncommon and fortunate situation, but its the truth). I hate it and feel very uncomfortable when I go somewhere and someone tries to "hook me up". I usually politely decline and just say "no thanks, Id rather just pay for it". I then find myself in the tough situation as to whether or not I should say something to the owner. I usually do, and the employee is usually not there the next time I go to the establishment. I always feel really bad about it, but really what am I to do? It goes against my morals, and I figure it will be a lot easier for that person to find another job (and maybe learn a little from it) than for the business owner who gets milked out of business...
I am the owner of a Bar/Restaurant with 3-8ft Diamond tables. I consider it flat out theft if a bartender consciously over pours, gives out free drinks or gives free table time to get better tips. A lot of times they simply do not look at it like that, but that is exactly what it is. They are taking money out of my pocket to put extra money in their pocket (in the form of better tips). I am VERY fortunate to have the employees that I do at my place, and I do understand that most places are not as lucky with their employees as I am, but I also treat my employees extremely well and like family. Most have been there for 10-15 years, and we rarely have turnover.
I am also lucky to have very good customers, so much so that many of them will go out of their way to tell me if they think an employee is over pouring or giving out free drinks (I know, again, Im in a very uncommon and fortunate situation, but its the truth). I hate it and feel very uncomfortable when I go somewhere and someone tries to "hook me up". I usually politely decline and just say "no thanks, Id rather just pay for it". I then find myself in the tough situation as to whether or not I should say something to the owner. I usually do, and the employee is usually not there the next time I go to the establishment. I always feel really bad about it, but really what am I to do? It goes against my morals, and I figure it will be a lot easier for that person to find another job (and maybe learn a little from it) than for the business owner who gets milked out of business...
Renfro: well, I jumped to conclusions I guess, sounds like they just hired/promoted a dud for a manager. I've also had issues where a player jumps in, leaves, and we get charged for a third person even though he played very little.
offtopic... That's part of the reason why I wish they'd do a flat rate for table time. I know it's more profitable for the pool hall to charge per person, and I want them to succeed, but it often doesn't seem fair to the customer. With 4 people doing doubles, or winner stays... most people are paying full price for half the usual time actually hitting balls. And employees must watch the table to see if a new person jumped in. I can't see a pool hall making a whole lot less table revenue with some simple deal like: $4/hr single, $10/hr 2 or more. Maybe more people come knowing they can effectively join for free.
rainman: I think we see it the same way. I considered reporting it to the owner. But for now I think I'll just say something to server... not directly accuse them, just drop a hint. "I actually don't mind if you charge me... I usually just tip 20% of whatever's on this bill, so it will help you out too". If it keeps happening or other waitresses are doing it, I'll say something.
Cory: I like that idea... freebies are fine as long as they are tracked and on the level. Maybe the owner can even figure out whether freebies are actually making him more money in the long run... he creates a new freebie allowance for some servers, compares their sales to similar circumstances where they had no allowance.
offtopic... That's part of the reason why I wish they'd do a flat rate for table time. I know it's more profitable for the pool hall to charge per person, and I want them to succeed, but it often doesn't seem fair to the customer. With 4 people doing doubles, or winner stays... most people are paying full price for half the usual time actually hitting balls. And employees must watch the table to see if a new person jumped in. I can't see a pool hall making a whole lot less table revenue with some simple deal like: $4/hr single, $10/hr 2 or more. Maybe more people come knowing they can effectively join for free.
rainman: I think we see it the same way. I considered reporting it to the owner. But for now I think I'll just say something to server... not directly accuse them, just drop a hint. "I actually don't mind if you charge me... I usually just tip 20% of whatever's on this bill, so it will help you out too". If it keeps happening or other waitresses are doing it, I'll say something.
Cory: I like that idea... freebies are fine as long as they are tracked and on the level. Maybe the owner can even figure out whether freebies are actually making him more money in the long run... he creates a new freebie allowance for some servers, compares their sales to similar circumstances where they had no allowance.
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Gotaction99
Banned
I think its ok to give free pool time to a regular customer that spends a lot of money in the establishment.
Freebies
I am not at all against rewarding loyal/good customers with "freebies" or "hooking them up". Im just against the employee taking it upon his/her self to do it on their own, usually trying to personally benefit from it rather than "looking out for the long term success of the business". As a matter of fact, I give out free drinks and table time ALL THE TIME, but that is MY business decision as the OWNER. My tables stay open all night after league play is over. Why? Because I learned long ago that I will make MUCH more by keeping the players there and playing, in food and alcohol sales, not to mention the good will it buys me from the customers, all for the little cost of open tables (actually it isnt a cost at all if they are more likely to leave anyway as soon as the tables are locked up). I also have open tables for ALL league players on Mondays. It started out as only for league players that play out of my place, but I again learned that it was much more of a financial benefit by allowing ALL league players to play. My place used to be fairly empty on a slow Monday night, but now its ALWAYS packed. My sales went up over 50% overall on Mondays because of it. I also constantly give really good customers free table time, customers that are there on a regular basis, spend money, bring in friends, and never cause any problems.. So again, im not against freebies, but just against employees making the decision to do it on their own (and usually for personal gain)..
I am not at all against rewarding loyal/good customers with "freebies" or "hooking them up". Im just against the employee taking it upon his/her self to do it on their own, usually trying to personally benefit from it rather than "looking out for the long term success of the business". As a matter of fact, I give out free drinks and table time ALL THE TIME, but that is MY business decision as the OWNER. My tables stay open all night after league play is over. Why? Because I learned long ago that I will make MUCH more by keeping the players there and playing, in food and alcohol sales, not to mention the good will it buys me from the customers, all for the little cost of open tables (actually it isnt a cost at all if they are more likely to leave anyway as soon as the tables are locked up). I also have open tables for ALL league players on Mondays. It started out as only for league players that play out of my place, but I again learned that it was much more of a financial benefit by allowing ALL league players to play. My place used to be fairly empty on a slow Monday night, but now its ALWAYS packed. My sales went up over 50% overall on Mondays because of it. I also constantly give really good customers free table time, customers that are there on a regular basis, spend money, bring in friends, and never cause any problems.. So again, im not against freebies, but just against employees making the decision to do it on their own (and usually for personal gain)..
Little story. I worked for a computer company that partly owned a blues club. I got roped into putting some time in too. The bar manager had a no account boyfriend that had a taste for the good stuff and I noticed that no money exchanged hands when he went to get another drink.
I was like, who are you to do this in front of me.
I had to take her to a grocery store to get bar supplies once or more a week. While she was at it, she did her own grocery shopping as she didn't have a car.
I let her get away with it a couple of times. Then I told her that I was on company time and had better things to do other than be a personal chauffeur. That ended that one.
Then, shortly afterward, she got fired and I got to go to her place and pick up the keys to the bar. Well, it was when I knocked on the door and asked for the keys that she knew that she no longer was employed.
I like to think I had something to do with it.
I was like, who are you to do this in front of me.
I had to take her to a grocery store to get bar supplies once or more a week. While she was at it, she did her own grocery shopping as she didn't have a car.
I let her get away with it a couple of times. Then I told her that I was on company time and had better things to do other than be a personal chauffeur. That ended that one.
Then, shortly afterward, she got fired and I got to go to her place and pick up the keys to the bar. Well, it was when I knocked on the door and asked for the keys that she knew that she no longer was employed.
I like to think I had something to do with it.
Gotaction99
Banned
I agree with you on it should be up to you to give away the freebies. What I disagree with is you taking it upon yourself to rat on an employee of an establishment and get them fired for trying to be nice and give more alcohol in your drink. Its not up to to be a police and get them fired. Sooner or later the employer will find out on his own what is going on.
I agree with you. If the owner wants to give me a deal, that is great. I dont believe the time is the employees to give away, and that I do believe is stealing, so I will just graciously say thanks for the offer, but I dont mind paying for my time, or food, or whatever it is. At the same time, I have had numerous situations where I do know the owner or gm of a restaurant that does have the power to comp or give me food. In those cases, I do always tip the waitress considerably more than I would normally.
Gotaction99
Banned
all you people are holier than though. I think most people would not refuse a free drink or free table time. Especially if they are regular customers and spend a lot of money in the establishment. A free drink or free table time every once in a while to show appreciation is no big deal.