When is a Foul a Foul?
- Thread starter TWOFORPOOL
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2strong4u
Banned
Sadly in pool the person you are playing doesn't have to admit to anything. Pretty sad. People like that will not get action from me for long.
There are guys I play for decent money who will just turn around and give me ball in hand when they foul. I don't even watch them. If we get into a questionable call that we can't decide we revert to rebreaking. It's not worth an argument.
This reminds me of a funny story. Back in the 80s I was watching a fairly big tournament. Gary Pinkowski was running out when he unexpectedly missed in the middle of the rack. He looked up from the table and noticed his opponent fooling around scuffing his tip. Gary asked "did you see that shot?". His opponent said "no, what happened?" Gary said "oh you missed it, it was a good one". He kept shooting, ran out the rack and ended up winning a close match.
I always pay close attention to the game at all times. It's hard to tell when you're going to run into a player like that.
I always pay close attention to the game at all times. It's hard to tell when you're going to run into a player like that.
This topic of calling fouls on oneself comes up over and over. The threads get lengthy and highly repetitive. Here are three from the past few years.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=231690
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=299698
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=326682
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=231690
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=299698
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=326682
If I am the shooter, guess what I am concentrating on? And it's not whether or not I going to make a bad hit. If its close you get someone to make the call and the guy that is sitting in the chair should have gotten someone to call it. If it was me and it would be close I would tell the guy to get some one to call it.
I was playing at the Western BCA, and did something stupid. I played the wrong ball. The guy broke, apparently sank 2 stripes and a solid. Decided to play solids, hit one in, and then on the next turn hit a stripe in after a legal hit. I get to the table, could have sworn he was stripes as I watched him shooting, counted the balls and that matched what I was thinking. Finally, called the 2 in the side. It was clearly called, there was no other shots in that direction. As soon as I hit it, he jumps out of his seat and calls foul, ball in hand...
Stupid on my part for not KNOWING I was stripes, but good god I was pissed off. Perhaps I'm just a nice guy, but I am NOT going to sit there and watch someone play the wrong ball. I just am not that kind of guy. This bastard was out of his seat calling foul so quick with a shit eating grin on his face...ouch. Anyway, I learned two things, both my fault entirely. Do not be stupid and not know CLEARLY what's going on in your game. Also, assume all opponents are absolute asses. I'll be fine moving forward.
The one thing that makes me smile on this match, it went hill to hill. Our team was home, I had the hill match. Broke and ran. It would have been better if the ass I had this issue with was their best player, and was the one that got to sit and watch the BR...but felt nice none the less...
Stupid on my part for not KNOWING I was stripes, but good god I was pissed off. Perhaps I'm just a nice guy, but I am NOT going to sit there and watch someone play the wrong ball. I just am not that kind of guy. This bastard was out of his seat calling foul so quick with a shit eating grin on his face...ouch. Anyway, I learned two things, both my fault entirely. Do not be stupid and not know CLEARLY what's going on in your game. Also, assume all opponents are absolute asses. I'll be fine moving forward.
The one thing that makes me smile on this match, it went hill to hill. Our team was home, I had the hill match. Broke and ran. It would have been better if the ass I had this issue with was their best player, and was the one that got to sit and watch the BR...but felt nice none the less...
Puma, What would happen if he let you run out (pocket the eight) and then tells you you that hit all the wrong balls in and lose? But that was a nice run.
Banks
Banned
I think if it gets that far, it's considered a win.
Besides, if they wanted to pull that, you could just say they're wrong.
That is a good question. Aside from me taking a swing at the guy and getting thrown out of the tournament...not sure!
Who knows, perhaps the guy was lying and I hit the correct ball...oh well, karma won out in the end!
Lmao !!!:grin:
Just curious here ... how may honest men pick up the CB automatically without being called on it, when they foul for 100 or 200 a rack?
$600 a game in the center...my partner betting $1,200 on the side....
...I touched the cue ball, nobody saw it but I felt it...called the foul.
...whole pool hall was betting, they were stunned.
But we left with all the cash...tough joint but they gave me respect.
I don't double think on calling my own fouls...if you don't, you'll keep making them.
Those prices, btw, were when you could buy a new car for $3,200
An unackowedged foul is cheating
I've started going to the point of having someone video any questionable shots with the slo no video setting that's on my iPhone camera. I will typically do it before my opponent even asks that way there is no debate. I also don't want a bystander watching the shot and making the judgement call when I can have undeniable proof on the video. During weekly league play I typically don't both unless it's one of "those" teams we all love playing against. During any individual tournament I always do the video because I don't want someone making an improper call and it's causing controversy or effecting the outcome of a game. So far it has been very helpful and avoided many potential problems.
So... perhaps, subconsciously, you took the choice in this tough joint to be safe instead of sorry, cause the only way to know for sure no one saw you was to walk out that door and see if you make it. That's a risk in and of itself. Seems there was some additional consideration and mental motivation to come clean. I don't blame you. :thumbup:
I'm not saying you wouldn't have called the foul on yourself, I'm just suggesting ... it's easier for these honest posters to be noble typing on a forum than it might be in a real game, depending on the stakes.
Funny you should mention that...my partner said I should do that more often...
...he said the attitude of the whole room changed when I called that foul.
But I come from golf, where that is the normal practice....
...and I come from a family where that is mandatory.
I consider it a winning habit....find another way of winning and you betray your talent and
lose some faith in yourself.
Cheaters tend to dog it
Right on. This is primarily why I don't bet it up very often because I call fouls on myself but I just don't trust most people to do the same. I've actually invited a third party to watch a shot that I was shooting several times in tournament play. It's just a game. My integrity is worth more than any pool shot.
Close hits are not the only fouls. And you may not be thinking about a bad hit or not, but you will know it if you did after you shot.
I'm not going to call a guy over because I think you may miscue or hit a ball with your cue or whiff on a ball totally if you try for a thin hit.
While it's polite, it's not in the rules at all that your opponent has to warn you that you are about to shoot a bad shot, there was nothing bad about what he did, and I would not even consider it being an ass.
The only thing that is not quite good is being happy about the situation. Had that happen a few times in league where a player would be totally outplaying another one, then lost on a scratch on the 8, the other guy jumped up all happy like he just ran out himself instead of sitting there watching. Pissed me off a bit there. You don't celebrate your opponents mistakes or misfortune.
There was a match I just saw, where in a major tournament Earl Strickland shot the wrong ball with ball in hand. The ref called a foul, the opponent did not say a word that Earl was about to do that, and of course neither did the ref. If it's not something that a ref would do, why expect your opponent to do the same thing?
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Call me crazy but I think a singles match is different than a team one.
In singles, if I foul I can't think of a scenario where I wouldn't call it on myself (although honestly it's possible there may be one).
Teams is a different animal and I learned that lesson the hard way. I was playing in my first team event and I played a nice safety. The opposing player came to the table and attempted a 3 rail kick shot which he hit but he didn't get a rail. I was so full of nerves and so surprised he even hit the ball that I missed the fact that he didn't get a rail. My teammates could say nothing.
I ended up losing the rack and I was pretty ticked off about it after hearing all the details from my teammates but later I realized it was my own fault for not paying attention. Had I simply asked the guy if it was ball in hand -- which is a standard requirement before taking one, he would have acknowledged the foul. It was my mistake not his.
Now it would be great if we all called all fouls on ourselves, but that's not the reality. So when playing in a team event I think it's important to understand you aren't just calling a foul on yourself but you are calling a foul on your team. There are now times when I'm playing in a team event where if my opponent chooses to NOT pay attention I will not call fouls on my team that he chooses to ignore.
I sort of disagree with the idea that the player in the chair is not the quasi referee. Every team event I've played in this is the understanding. I've never once had my view of the table obstructed by anything. If something crazy on the table happens (like a miscue) all you have to do is ask the player if it was a good hit. If you choose to stay disengaged from the action on the table you are just asking for trouble.
I don't think playing like this is perfect but I also choose not to impose my own moral code on my teammates in order to look like some sort of purist.
I hope this makes sense to some of you without making me look like a murderer.
In singles, if I foul I can't think of a scenario where I wouldn't call it on myself (although honestly it's possible there may be one).
Teams is a different animal and I learned that lesson the hard way. I was playing in my first team event and I played a nice safety. The opposing player came to the table and attempted a 3 rail kick shot which he hit but he didn't get a rail. I was so full of nerves and so surprised he even hit the ball that I missed the fact that he didn't get a rail. My teammates could say nothing.
I ended up losing the rack and I was pretty ticked off about it after hearing all the details from my teammates but later I realized it was my own fault for not paying attention. Had I simply asked the guy if it was ball in hand -- which is a standard requirement before taking one, he would have acknowledged the foul. It was my mistake not his.
Now it would be great if we all called all fouls on ourselves, but that's not the reality. So when playing in a team event I think it's important to understand you aren't just calling a foul on yourself but you are calling a foul on your team. There are now times when I'm playing in a team event where if my opponent chooses to NOT pay attention I will not call fouls on my team that he chooses to ignore.
I sort of disagree with the idea that the player in the chair is not the quasi referee. Every team event I've played in this is the understanding. I've never once had my view of the table obstructed by anything. If something crazy on the table happens (like a miscue) all you have to do is ask the player if it was a good hit. If you choose to stay disengaged from the action on the table you are just asking for trouble.
I don't think playing like this is perfect but I also choose not to impose my own moral code on my teammates in order to look like some sort of purist.
I hope this makes sense to some of you without making me look like a murderer.
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