When Ronnie Allen re-invented 1 hole.

[wayne]

Cecil was perhaps the most talented black pool player I ever saw. Of course he couldn't beat Cicero Murphy at 14.1 or Bugs at Banks or One Hole. But he could play all games at a high level by the time he was in his early 20's. 9-Ball, One Pocket, 14.1, Banks it made no difference.

Unfortunately, he had a volatile temper and often got into beefs with other players. It only got worse as he got older. I traveled with Cecil and staked him in the early 80's, after he got his wrist broken in Detroit. He had learned to play Lefty and now called himself the Left Duke. Oh well.

He did not play like he did with his right hand, but was still good enough to win tournaments in Sacramento and Modesto against the best players on the West Coast, including Lou Butera, Kim Davenport, Doc Brienza, Ernesto and Keith. He still played good enough One Pocket that no one around could beat him.

We returned from one successful trip with about 5K, and I gave him half. I didn't hear from him again for many weeks. When I did, he was hooked on crack. He warned me against using it (I had no interest anyway). This was more than 15 years ago and he has steadily declined since in ability and sensibility.

He used to come in my poolroom at Hollywood Park daily. But he finally wore out his welcome there too.

A little tidbit more on Cecil. A poolplayer at Hollywood Billiards (Walt) went to highschool with Cecil and he said Cecil was the most talented athlete around, he was a star at track but was even greater in the pool. He told me they had an Olympic pool where the Olympians would train but Cecil was so great a diver on the highboard that even the Olympians would stop and watch him doing his dives. I forget what the reason was that he didn't enter the Olympics but the person telling me said he would have won a medal if he had entered.

Wayne

 

[coastydad]

Jay,

I just have to say it's a pleasure having you posting here.... You just keep bringing up names of people I haven't thought of in a long time! Pete Glenn- One of my favorite people in pool. Great guy and class act.... Pete always swung thru the poolroom when he was passing thru town and we'd trade spots and play some cheap one-pocket. At his age now he doesn't see well enough to shoot at his hole but man can he move!!! Pete moves real smooth and precise (kinda "Cooney-esque"). And Patcheye... Another very cool cat.. I sweated a lot of the Cooney-Walden match at the DCC with Patcheye an Groundhog. Jack plays so freakin good it's sick!!! At one point on four consecutive innings the three of us all looked at each other and said "That was the best move I ever saw!"... Jack just kept coming with them and made it look so damn easy it was pathetic... I've seen all of the top players play 1P and Jack is the best mover I ever seen, bar none. Jack spent all those years under the radar and I often wondered... Did Jack play better 1P when he was in his prime or now? Keep'em coming!

Saw

I had the pleasure of meeting Pete Glenn last year when he was around here for a couple of weeks. A fine gentleman who does indeed still have a few moves left.

 

[jay helfert]

I didn't realize I was in the presence of greatness at the time. I was attending the Cincinnati Conservatory of Music then. Played pool & 3C mostly over at UC. Do you remember the old room down on Vine St? I think they only had5-6 tables. That was my first exposure to one hole. In 1962 I was a pretty good shot maker; but an older guy at that room asked me if I'd like to play a game where all I had to do was make 8 balls in one corner pocket before he made 8 in the other. I readily accepted for $2 a game. Well, he tortured me for about an hour before I became embarrassed enough to quit. Hell, I never heard about Johnston City going on all through the time I lived in Cincinnati! You remember that communication was practically non-existent in those days. Mostly word-of-mouth stuff.

Doc

I remember that little room. I went in there once and no one would play, so I never went back. I was around Cincy mostly in 1965-67, before going into the Army.

 

[jay helfert]

I knew it would come up about when Willie spotted Nickie Vach the 5 Ball. Nickie was a One Pocket player and any real good 9 Ball player could have given him big weight. I got real tired of arguing about this some years ago. But I'll do this one last time.
There are only two barometers for gauging pool greatness, tournament play and gambling. Practice and conjecture don't count. Lassiter dominated nine ball for 30 or 40 years and played everybody. He gave top players the 7 and the 6 ball and they couldn't win. Watchers-on would bet you Wimpy was out before the break. Today's 9 Ball champions have never averaged 50 per cent being out from the break. Mosconi wouldn't play top players for money and he NEVER won a 9 Ball event. What else do you need?

Grady, I agree with you 100%. You and I both know Mosconi had no heart for gambling. It's just the anomaly of that one famous game where Mosconi was supposed to have played great on Nicky.

The way Earl Shriver told the story was that the break hurt Nicky because he couldn't make a ball on the break on the tough 10' table, and Mosconi kept running out off Nicky's break.

Do you remember the funny story Fats used to tell during his exhibitions in the 60's about Willie The Wop? It was a total putdown of Mosconi. It took me years to catch on. You gotta remember that story. I think someone finally made him stop telling it, maybe Mosconi's lawyer.

The oldtimers loved Greenleaf because he had a lot of gamble too and would mix it up with the hustlers at 9-Ball or whatever. They say he used to go up to Harlem late at night and play James Evans, the great black player.

 

[ghost ball]

This thread is blowing me away! After taking the game up seriously, I used to go to HT (Wed night touneys) in the early to mid nineties just to watch. One time, A friend of mine, from No Cal, beat Keith twice to knock him out of the tourney. I was also there when Efren played Amarillo Slim some one-pocket with some sick spot like 17-5. Can any of you guys give up some stories around HardTimes 10-12 years ago? I've got a bunch of old pool newspapers from that SoCal around that time. It must have been the pool mecha at the time.

Thanks,

ghost ball

 

[cuetechasaurus]

I've heard from alot of sources that Lassiter averaged 40-50% break and runouts in 9-ball. Aside from being one of the greatest 9ballers, did he have a monster break, or was it easier to make a ball on the break in his days?? That percentage is unbeatable.

 

[cuetechasaurus]

I think alot of people need to stop and think about what being the greatest poolplayer really is. It's not a hotstreak that lasted a few years. Everyone says Buddy Hall played absoloutely perfect 9-ball for a few months, that nobody could beat him. Well supposed there was another player who was playing perfect 9-ball at that time, and he matched up with Buddy. Whoever won would be who got a shot off the break, who won the lag, stuff like that. It wouldn't matter if someone was a perfect player, because there is nothing he could do sitting in his chair. It's a slightly different thing for 1-pocket. The game is like chess, and there is an offensive aspect to it. Ronnie was undoubtedly the best offensive 1-pocket player ever, but was he the best overall 1-pocket player? I saw him play DiLiberto for 20k, and that was a pretty damn close match. Nobody mentions Danny D. as being one of the greatest, even though he was. Take Artie Bodendorf for example. Freddy the Beard described how he was the greatest percentage player of all time. On the defensive side, Grady Matthews or Allen Hopkins were probably the best of all time. It seems that in all of these aspects of 1-p, Efren doesn't have a weakness. He doesn't have one ability that overrides the other. He is great at all of these aspects, so that's where I draw my conclusion that he is the best 1-pocket player of all time.

 

[freddy the beard]

Nicky Vachianno from Philly

I knew it would come up about when Willie spotted Nickie Vach the 5 Ball. Nickie was a One Pocket player and any real good 9 Ball player could have given him big weight. I got real tired of arguing about this some years ago. But I'll do this one last time.
There are only two barometers for gauging pool greatness, tournament play and gambling. Practice and conjecture don't count. Lassiter dominated nine ball for 30 or 40 years and played everybody. He gave top players the 7 and the 6 ball and they couldn't win. Watchers-on would bet you Wimpy was out before the break. Today's 9 Ball champions have never averaged 50 per cent being out from the break. Mosconi wouldn't play top players for money and he NEVER won a 9 Ball event. What else do you need?

Grady you are leaving something out. Nicky, I, and others, all hung out in the Congress Bowl in Miami at that time. You forgot to add that Nicky got the five ball and the break on that 5x10! This from Nicky's mouth. To confirm what Earl Schriver said to Jay, yes Nicky said he couldnt make a ball on the break.

the Beard

 

[enzo]

hard times stories

This thread is blowing me away! After taking the game up seriously, I used to go to HT (Wed night touneys) in the early to mid nineties just to watch. One time, A friend of mine, from No Cal, beat Keith twice to knock him out of the tourney. I was also there when Efren played Amarillo Slim some one-pocket with some sick spot like 17-5. Can any of you guys give up some stories around HardTimes 10-12 years ago? I've got a bunch of old pool newspapers from that SoCal around that time. It must have been the pool mecha at the time.

Thanks,

ghost ball

I told a HT story in a thread a while back, it didn't get much attention cus the thread it was in. here it is:

Mark tadd was playing REALLY well in the early 90's, i mean it was sick. the first time i ever walked into ht he was there practicing 9 ball with jimmy mendoza (this was around 92 or 93, not sure exactly). so, every 5 minutes or so mark would yell out SWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET, in a high pitched, squeeling voice that rattled through the tournament room.

now, if youve been to ht you know that this type stuff wont normally be tolerated, especially in the tournament room with a bunch of players around you. but he was doing this and nobody said a damn word to him about it, i mean thats how good he was playing back then. i guess the old saying about how you can talk all the trash you want if you can back it up is true. i got to the bicycle club early one morning around this same time. mark was having trouble getting anything from efren (mostly one pocket talk), i mean really, i was right there listening. mark wouldnt play even though.

another quick one, i watched efren shoot at 45 against aggi (sp?) in the 5 rack one pocket ghost. i watched all night. it went back and forth. other very, very strong players were shooting at like around 30, i mean his offense is truly extraordinary. efren was getting quite a few zeros that night because hed get frozen to balls after the break. he started scratching on purpose so he had ball in hand behind the line. interetsing strategy, he only would lose one ball. he ran all 15 balls out twice. aggi was giving efren a hard time all night, like really heckling him. i asked why he was trying to shark him, and he said "it doesn't bother him at all, im just doing it to entertain myself." to this day i believe that.

and keith, there are almost too many stories, you really had to be there to appreciate it fully, no way to explain it. when the bicycle club was happening, he was playing somebody, i forget who, and he was dead trapped behind a ball downtable and the guys game ball hanging in his hole. he fired this 2 railer in 100 mph, yelled out "swish baby" and proceeded to run out another 3 balls from nowhere to win the game. michael coltrain was playing right next to him, and he was just going crazy, like he'd never seen anything like it before. truly beautiful stuff.

ok, not GREAT stories like beards, jays and gradys, but i thought they were worth mention.

 

[Bobby]

I think alot of people need to stop and think about what being the greatest poolplayer really is. It's not a hotstreak that lasted a few years. Everyone says Buddy Hall played absoloutely perfect 9-ball for a few months, that nobody could beat him. Well supposed there was another player who was playing perfect 9-ball at that time, and he matched up with Buddy. Whoever won would be who got a shot off the break, who won the lag, stuff like that. It wouldn't matter if someone was a perfect player, because there is nothing he could do sitting in his chair. It's a slightly different thing for 1-pocket. The game is like chess, and there is an offensive aspect to it. Ronnie was undoubtedly the best offensive 1-pocket player ever, but was he the best overall 1-pocket player? I saw him play DiLiberto for 20k, and that was a pretty damn close match. Nobody mentions Danny D. as being one of the greatest, even though he was. Take Artie Bodendorf for example. Freddy the Beard described how he was the greatest percentage player of all time. On the defensive side, Grady Matthews or Allen Hopkins were probably the best of all time. It seems that in all of these aspects of 1-p, Efren doesn't have a weakness. He doesn't have one ability that overrides the other. He is great at all of these aspects, so that's where I draw my conclusion that he is the best 1-pocket player of all time.

That Ronnie Allen vs Diliberto match happened in the late 80's, Ronnie Allen was quite a bit past his prime at the time. I don't know who was better Ronnie or Efren, we'll never know. But they are each the best one pocket player of their respective generations. Thats all that matters.

Bobby

 

[enzo]

get this thread going again

I go back all the way to the old Ye Billiard Den with Cecil. We used to play regularly then. We were both only top shortstops then. Years later when Cecil came to Chicago he was now a top player. Harold Denson was steering and staking him, and they wound up in Bensingers. In Cecil's first match he landed on Artie. He or Harold didnt know him. Harold figured Cecil could beat anybody in Chicago except Bugs. Wrong. Artie tortured him and Cecil was so frustrated from the strumming, when they were at the counter paying the time Cecil sucker punched Artie and ran out the door. Artie hadnt taunted him or anything, he just embarassed him. I dont think the Serpent won a game. Cecil and I were good friends, but he was a hideous loser and would go ballistic often. Cecil and Artie eventually made up and became good friends too -- except Cecil never played him again. When you see The Serps, tell him hello for me.

the Beard

I can't tell you how much I love hearing these stories. Cecil-Artie, that would have to be one of my all time "wish I saw it matchups," Jack cooney vs artie would be my all time dream to have watched, not sure if they ever played though.

Anyway, only if you are up for it Freddy, i'd love to hear more about Artie. I have been so fascinated by him for about 2 years now. I looked him up online a couple times, seems he had some trouble with the law out in vegas huh, financial troubles, not drugs or violence or anything.

 

[freddy the beard]

Cooney-Artie

I can't tell you how much I love hearing these stories. Cecil-Artie, that would have to be one of my all time "wish I saw it matchups," Jack cooney vs artie would be my all time dream to have watched, not sure if they ever played though.

Anyway, only if you are up for it Freddy, i'd love to hear more about Artie. I have been so fascinated by him for about 2 years now. I looked him up online a couple times, seems he had some trouble with the law out in vegas huh, financial troubles, not drugs or violence or anything.

Artie was "middling" bets and charging a commission for high rollers to get off big bets in Vegas. He had 30 to 40 runners that would make the bets for him at different Casino Sports Books. His line was the official line for the rest of the country. He made so much money that the Casinos got jealous and invented a law to stop him. (they made "Making bets using several runners is now against the law.") The Gov confiscated 3 mil cash from his runners and ended up keeping 2 mil. He did six mo., is out, and dont do that no more. Now he just bets big $ on Sports, on the square, just to amuse himself.
Cooney and Artie never played against each other, but they did play as partners against a weaker player named Grady Humphreys for big $. At the time Artie was actually afraid of Cooney and his rep, and wasnt anxious to match up with up him. After playing together for several days observing Jack's style and game, and getting into a few arguments about the "right" shot, Artie quit the partners game and challenged Jack to play, now realizing Cooney couldnt outmove or beat him. Jack, having come to the same conclusion, refused and asked for a spot. This occurred in my joint, North Shore Billiard Club.

the Beard

 

[Salamander]

Has anybody heard of a guy by the name of Jim Bohanon (or something like that). I've heard from a couple of people that he was a fabulous one pocket player, but has been under the radar for many years. Just curious.

Any stories?

Regards,

Doug

 

[gulfportdoc]

I remember that little room. I went in there once and no one would play, so I never went back. I was around Cincy mostly in 1965-67, before going into the Army.

That's funny. I left there in '67 also-- to go to NYC, then L.A. I met you out at Cotati in Buffalo Billiards at a tournament around '94. Couple years later I played in your barbox event at the Hilton in Reno-- the one where that poor guy keeled over and died of a heart attack during a match. I'll never forget you telling me that the deceased guy's opponent came up to ask you if that meant he won by forfeit; and you told the guy to get a life! Lots of great stroies out of that event. King Kong beat C.J. Riley with a cross-side combo bank in the side. I think Barry Emerson won it, and you advised him to put half in the bank. Wonder where he is now?

Enclosed is a pic of me, if it'll attach.

Art "Doc" Tripp

 

[yobagua]

Sorry to divert the subject. Jay are you going to run the Sacramento Jamboree in June? You do such a great job. I know RA usually is up there for it as well as some of the top West Coast One Pocket players. I got to play Rodney some one pocket up there and his game plan was 8 and out over and over again. This was after he told me "take it easy I am just learning (one hole) the game". LOL!!!!!!!

 

[jay helfert]

That's funny. I left there in '67 also-- to go to NYC, then L.A. I met you out at Cotati in Buffalo Billiards at a tournament around '94. Couple years later I played in your barbox event at the Hilton in Reno-- the one where that poor guy keeled over and died of a heart attack during a match. I'll never forget you telling me that the deceased guy's opponent came up to ask you if that meant he won by forfeit; and you told the guy to get a life! Lots of great stroies out of that event. King Kong beat C.J. Riley with a cross-side combo bank in the side. I think Barry Emerson won it, and you advised him to put half in the bank. Wonder where he is now?

Enclosed is a pic of me, if it'll attach.

Art "Doc" Tripp

Yeah Art. Didn't you used to live in Northen Cal? I believe Barry is in Indianapolis. He still plays real good around the midwest.

 

[jay helfert]

Sorry to divert the subject. Jay are you going to run the Sacramento Jamboree in June? You do such a great job. I know RA usually is up there for it as well as some of the top West Coast One Pocket players. I got to play Rodney some one pocket up there and his game plan was 8 and out over and over again. This was after he told me "take it easy I am just learning (one hole) the game". LOL!!!!!!!

Doubt whether I will make it this year. But thanks anyway.

 

[gulfportdoc]

Yeah Art. Didn't you used to live in Northen Cal? I believe Barry is in Indianapolis. He still plays real good around the midwest.

Yes, I lived up in the Eureka area for many years, so I was able to play all over N. Calif., Nevada and Oregon. Left Kalifornia in 2000 before the government took complete control of all buinesses and all private property. I moved my chiropractic practice to Gulfport. Wish I'd done it 25 years ago. Lots of action in New Orleans now. Are you still takin' it down on the 10-20 Hold'em tables? You don't still have a poolroom, do you?

Doc

 

[jay helfert]

Yes, I lived up in the Eureka area for many years, so I was able to play all over N. Calif., Nevada and Oregon. Left Kalifornia in 2000 before the government took complete control of all buinesses and all private property. I moved my chiropractic practice to Gulfport. Wish I'd done it 25 years ago. Lots of action in New Orleans now. Are you still takin' it down on the 10-20 Hold'em tables? You don't still have a poolroom, do you?

Doc

Mostly play tournaments (online and live), or 30-60 or 40-80 Hold 'em.

 

[vagabond]

Yeah Art. Didn't you used to live in Northen Cal? I believe Barry is in Indianapolis. He still plays real good around the midwest.

Barry moved from washington state to Dallas, TX