When Ronnie Allen re-invented 1 hole.

stolz2

stolz2

Kid Mack
Silver Member
Its a known fact, that Ronnie Allen pretty much invented offensive one pocket.

Does anyone have stories of when Ronnie made this happen. I heard there was a stretch of years where Ronnie could size up and beat anyone at one pocket. He would watch a great great one pocket player for a few games, and be able to determine that he had learned from watching lets say allen hopkins, or what part of the county he primarly played one pocket in. And then be able to change his game and beat just about anyone.

Anyone get to play Ronnie, when he was killing everyone?

Mack
 
Minnesota Fats takes credit for "inventing" offensive 1P, but as author R. A. Dyer found out, it's hard to separate fact from fiction when dealing with what Fats claimed. There were a lot of great 1P players before Ronnie who used runout styles of play, Jersey Red was certainly an offensive 1P machine (giving a player 16-8, Red ran 16 and out 3 times in a session on a 5X10!), "Rags" Fitzpatrick was another. I hung out at Cochran's Billiards and The Palace in San Francisco in the 60's and 70's when Ronnie was there but I wasn't into 1P then, so I can't give an educated first hand account, but I remember 1P champs from other cities coming in with a "Chicago squeeze" style and getting barbequed by Ronnie's "runout from nowhere" game. Even if he didn't "invent" it, I think he took it to a level maybe never seen before; his offensive creativity is a thing of beauty. Anyway, I'll shut up now and wait for Grady, Freddie, Steve and the other real experts to give us the lowdown. Thanks for the thread.
 
Fats was offensive

In Johnston City, in the 60s, I had the pleasure and privilege of watching Ronnie and Fatty play Onepocket for 300 a game. I say privilege because few people were allowed to watch the game. Fatty didnt want any squares seeing him get a spot from Ronnie Allen. Ronnie was playing him 9 to 7 and giving him 330 to 300 on the money. I was just a kid and it was very exciting. Anybody who doubts Fats' offensive ability is nuts. Fats would shoot a two railer and stop his cue ball right in front of Ronnie's pocket. Ronnie would do the same. Ronnie would run 9 and out and Fats would run 7 and out. Incidentally, Fat's sevens looked much better than Ronnie's nines. Fats ran out like Mosconi, and as fast as Lou Butera. They both played fantastic, the games never wound up down table. They played for about 2 hours and might have played as many as 25 to 30 games in that time. 9 and out and 7 and out was just about all they did. Playing as well as that, the outcome was predictable, they broke even! The odds on the money probably put Fatty a few bucks ahead. After having seen that, I will argue with anyone who says Fats couldnt play. (9 to 7 was a bad game for Ronnie)
the Beard

Bank on, brothers!
 
freddy the beard said:
the Beard

Bank on, brothers!
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By any chance were u there when Danny D`Liberto beat Ronnie Allen in a match ( 10,000 $)in 80s.can u comment on that?
 
stolz2 said:
Its a known fact, that Ronnie Allen pretty much invented offensive one pocket.

Does anyone have stories of when Ronnie made this happen. I heard there was a stretch of years where Ronnie could size up and beat anyone at one pocket. He would watch a great great one pocket player for a few games, and be able to determine that he had learned from watching lets say allen hopkins, or what part of the county he primarly played one pocket in. And then be able to change his game and beat just about anyone.

Anyone get to play Ronnie, when he was killing everyone?

Mack
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Ronnie is from Oklahoma where Hayden Lingo, Glen "The Ufaula Kid" Womack, and others played. Ronnie came into One Pocket prominence towards the end of some great players' careers, like Marcel Camp, Eddie Taylor, Rags Fitzpatrick, Rotation Slim, Cannonball, etc.
For probably 20 years, nobody beat Ronnie playing even that I ever saw or heard of. Jersey Red came the closest. Red would win at 8 to 7 and lose at 9 to 8. I always thought Ronnie and Bugs played about the same although I never saw them play each other.
It's too bad that Rags died so young. He used to give Eddie Taylor 8 to 7 and thats saying something. It would have been a lot of fun to watch Ronnie and Rags play.
To this day, I don't believe Efren or anybody else ran balls better than Ronnie in his heyday. He is properly known for creating power One Pocket. You must remember, too, that the first two or three times you played Ronnie the shark was worth a full ball.
 
Grady said:
Ronnie is from Oklahoma where Hayden Lingo, Glen "The Ufaula Kid" Womack, and others played. Ronnie came into One Pocket prominence towards the end of some great players' careers, like Marcel Camp, Eddie Taylor, Rags Fitzpatrick, Rotation Slim, Cannonball, etc.
For probably 20 years, nobody beat Ronnie playing even that I ever saw or heard of. Jersey Red came the closest. Red would win at 8 to 7 and lose at 9 to 8. I always thought Ronnie and Bugs played about the same although I never saw them play each other.
It's too bad that Rags died so young. He used to give Eddie Taylor 8 to 7 and thats saying something. It would have been a lot of fun to watch Ronnie and Rags play.
To this day, I don't believe Efren or anybody else ran balls better than Ronnie in his heyday. He is properly known for creating power One Pocket. You must remember, too, that the first two or three times you played Ronnie the shark was worth a full ball.
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I guess in the 70's Ronnie took a trip from west coast to east coast. And lost money all they way there in the 10's of thousands. Setting people up for his trip back to California. On his long trip back home, he stripped every one he had lost to and there stakehorse's bank rolls making a killing.

Mack
 
stolz2 said:
I guess in the 70's Ronnie took a trip from west coast to east coast. And lost money all they way there in the 10's of thousands. Setting people up for his trip back to California. On his long trip back home, he stripped every one he had lost to and there stakehorse's bank rolls making a killing.

Mack
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He coudn't get away with that today. Today's players have taken nittiness to a whole new level. Today's nits have the nerve to ask for the nuts - get it - then just bet 20 cents a game AND THEN when they win they will ask for more weight and want to LOWER the bet.

John
 
onepocketchump said:
He coudn't get away with that today. Today's players have taken nittiness to a whole new level. Today's nits have the nerve to ask for the nuts - get it - then just bet 20 cents a game AND THEN when they win they will ask for more weight and want to LOWER the bet.

John
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Ummm, what's your point!?;)
 
Bump for this great thread.

For those that watched Ronnie Allen play in his prime, can you tell us some more stories about how good he played? Grady, I have alot of respect for your opinion but for Ronnie to be the best ever in one pocket is hard to believe, especially after watching Efren play lately.
 
onepocketchump said:
He coudn't get away with that today. Today's players have taken nittiness to a whole new level. Today's nits have the nerve to ask for the nuts - get it - then just bet 20 cents a game AND THEN when they win they will ask for more weight and want to LOWER the bet.

John
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Amen to that.. Jesus what a bunch of panzi's players have become.

I played a guy earlier this week (local A player) and he got up on me the first set. Played again heads up, and he squeaked out another one on me. (He's suppose to win, I'm a B.. Used to be an A back in the day, but quit playing for 6 years so I'm just getting back into it. I know excuses excuses.. LOL) I was pretty convinced I could take him if I upped the defense a bit though and stopped choking on some key balls. By this time the g/f was done practicing and wanted to roll (about midnight) We didn't leave until a little after 2:00. I ended up losing 4 sets, and winning one. She asked me why I would play that game, and I wouldn't quit or ask for weight etc.. (Especially since she's new i'm telling her to not be embarassed to ask for weight etc..) I told her I just didn't have it in me to ask for weight for in a race to 5 for 10 bucks.. LOL As for why I didn't quit, becuase I gave myself a 40/60 shot of wining, alot of the reason why it wouldn't be 50/50 in this game (guy is a low low A player) is a mental hang up that I'm going through. She was then pissed that I told her I was going to leave at midnight, and made her stay till 2. So I went on saying I woulda stayed longer if they were open longer, becuase if I quit then I have no heart (don't get me wrong eventually money will dictate a bad bet, but cheap sets against a challenging player? why not..) I couldn't concede and quit, becuase I was (still am) convinced that I can win, why quit? Why ask for weight. I'm not going to respect myself in the morning if I quit.

Amazingly you could see it on the guys face at the end of each set.. Just waiting for me to ask for the 8. I think he was pleasantly surprised when I didn't.

Now don't get me wrong, usually playin sets I'm all about the $$, and I won't usually make bets that I don't feel I'm a 60/40 favorite (minimum), but again races to 5 for 10? I'll chaulk up the 40 or 50 bucks to a night out and a goodtime. I won't give the guy the satisfaction of asking for weight. ;)

Two tables over though, I see guys getting the 7 out for races to 3 for 5.. The action nowdays is sickening. Makes me want to puke. Doesn't anyone have any pride anymore?

DJ
 
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Incidentally, I was lucky enough to play Ronnie Allen once at Hard Time la habra years ago. (Providing it actually was him and not some old guy yanking my chain)

Some people in the crowd that had gathered though said that it was him and that many claim the screenplay for the "hustler" was actually based upon his life. We played some 9 ball, short set. I remember thinking "for a world beater this guy isn't impressing me much." (by that I mean compared to 9 ball champs) He did win, but not exactly what I'd call a slaughter, and I wasn't exactly running racks that night.. He offered to play me 1 pocket with all kinds of crazy weight. I love 1 pocket, but unfortunately don't have very many hours clocked doing it (back then even less) so I'm a horrible one pocket player. He ended up playing someone else and to say it wasn't a match (even with the weight) is an understatement.

Kind of an interesting story, one of those I'm not even sure if it's true or not.. LOL Whether it was actually Ronnie, or some old guy yankin my chain..

DJ
 
this is a really interesting topic. i have heard on at least one accustat tape, and i agree with this, that ronnies game didn't stand up as well under big tournaments because he would go for so much. its really easy to lose a short race if you're shooting at everything.

when he was gambling and shooting at everything he could get away with it because he had as much time as his bankroll would allow to get in stroke or get the feel of the table. also, there is an intimidation factor when a guy is shooting like that on you, you dont know where to put him and that could affect execution.

grady, is it fair to say that one pocket got very offensive after ronnie, and then became defensive in the 90's, like in the hopkins era, and now it has come back to a much more offensive state again, kinda full circle. that may be too much of a generalization, but id be interested to hear what grady has to say, as always.
 
PlynSets said:
Incidentally, I was lucky enough to play Ronnie Allen once at Hard Time la habra years ago. (Providing it actually was him and not some old guy yanking my chain)
He offered to play me 1 pocket with all kinds of crazy weight.
Kind of an interesting story, one of those I'm not even sure if it's true or not.. LOL Whether it was actually Ronnie, or some old guy yankin my chain..

DJ
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DId the the proposition of him playing one handed ever come up in his match up proposal in 1 hole?
If so, it probably was him.
 
great posts people. I absolutely hated asking for weight, and really never did it much. When I was coming up, I played the best players heads up, and learned the whole time. I was good for $40/$50 buck a few time a week where I worked, and never listened to the NITS that said, your nuts, why throw your money away like that? It was all learning, and those guys taught me a hell of alot more than I ever paid them....

Last time I was in that room I played a guy that watched me warm up. He asked for weight BEFORE we even figured out what game to play!!!...nit...then wanted to adjust the game EVERY rack he lost. After a while I felt like quitting and he sais...ok we'll play even for $50 a rack 1 pocket, I snapped my neck reaching for my case, and nittynitboy sais....I was just kiddin to see if you'd go for it......chumpychumperson!!

Gerry
 
I don't make claims to many things but I will say that I don't think there's a better judge of One Pocket talent over the last forty years than I. I'll start this by stating that Efren, while a great, great champion, won't stand still for a beating. If he doesn't win and win easily, he's all done after two or three games. So, it's hard for me to compare him to great gamblers of yesteryear, like Ronnie.
Giving up weight: Ronnie aways said "If giving a guy 8 to 6 is a fair game, go ahead and give him 8 to 5 and break the whole joint". In his era which spanned at least twenty years he was the biggest bettor and clearly the best One Pocket player in the world.
Guys like me learned much from Ronnie and Jersey Red. If an Efren or a Cliff were to beat a Ronnie Allen in his prime, they would have needed to pack their lunch because if they squeaked out a few games ahead, they'd have been too tired to spend the money.
Ronnie had a friend from Montana who was a gentleman, a high roller, and a pilot. They used to fly into Colorado Springs and play me a thousand a game or fifteen hundred a game. We never argued and I still recall with great fondness my matches with him. When he would execute some terrific power shot or run out on me, I filed it away in my memory bank. I practiced religiously until I could do it myself. Speaking just for me, I won and I lost against Ronnie, and the times that he beat me, he played better than I did. It was just that simple.
To conclude, it's a total disgrace to not have Ronnie Allen in the Hall of Fame.
 
Gerry said:
...Last time I was in that room I played a guy that watched me warm up. He asked for weight BEFORE we even figured out what game to play!!!...nit...then wanted to adjust the game EVERY rack he lost. After a while I felt like quitting and he sais...ok we'll play even for $50 a rack 1 pocket, I snapped my neck reaching for my case, and nittynitboy sais....I was just kiddin to see if you'd go for it......chumpychumperson! ...
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Reminds me of Oren back where I used to play all the time. We played about even, but he always wanted weight. The manager gave him the nickname of "Streptocarpus" because he had a heart the size of a streptocarpus seed which is about the smallest in the vegetable kingdom. Anyway, I finally agree to give him the safe eight, he wins the flip, and says, "I quit." Shortest match I ever played.
 
Bob Jewett said:
Reminds me of Oren back where I used to play all the time. We played about even, but he always wanted weight. The manager gave him the nickname of "Streptocarpus" because he had a heart the size of a streptocarpus seed which is about the smallest in the vegetable kingdom. Anyway, I finally agree to give him the safe eight, he wins the flip, and says, "I quit." Shortest match I ever played.
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What's the "safe eight?"

Not to sound like a greenie, just not a term I've ever heard before. Call 8 ball or something? (9 ball?)
 
Scottster said:
DId the the proposition of him playing one handed ever come up in his match up proposal in 1 hole?
If so, it probably was him.
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Yes, actually it did.. LOL Again being around pool rooms a long time you quickly realize 1 handed isn't exactly the cats pajamas against some people. Point in fact I don't shoot too bad one handed myself.

DJ
 
PlynSets said:
What's the "safe eight?"

Not to sound like a greenie, just not a term I've ever heard before. Call 8 ball or something? (9 ball?)
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The safe eight means if the player makes the eight in any game but loses the game by not making the nine then he doesn't get a loss, it's a draw and nobody gets a win, it's like that game never happened.

Bobby
 
Bobby said:
The safe eight means if the player makes the eight in any game but loses the game by not making the nine then he doesn't get a loss, it's a draw and nobody gets a win, it's like that game never happened.

Bobby
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You know I gotta be honest.. In probably a 1000 sets that I've played with 100's of different people in a variety of states, I can honestly say I've never heard of that. Learn something every day.

DJ
 
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