Where does SVB rank all time?

Is there anyway to know what the top 10 or so FargoRates were in the 70s or 80s? Would be interesting to compare to today's top 10.
 
jay helfert said:
Talking about all the above in their prime, It would have to come down to Sigel or Varner. I'd probably give a slight edge to Mike. I'm sure Buddy could play Straight Pool but he rarely if ever did. I don't remember him ever playing in a major 14.1 event. Mike and Nick excelled at all those games, including Banks. Mizerak played all games at an equally high level, but he had no Bank Pool resume.
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for overall all, best at all games, tough call: I'm leaning towards Nick myself here. Nicks stronger in 1P and Banks. Even in SP. Even in 8B. Sigel stronger in 9B. But, Nick has world championship in all five disciplines. Does anyone else have that ?? But hey, it's all on paper. lol But I was glad to see Sigel has a US 1P title, I didn't know that. Unsure if he didn't do well at DCC or just didn't play ??

So, lets go to the tape (as they say)

Varner:

World Championships: 9
9b - 4
8b - 1
SP - 2
1p - 1
Banks - 1

US Open: 2
9b -2

DCC Titles: 2
Banks
1P

Sigel:

World Championships: 9

9b - 5
8b - 1
SP - 3
Banks - 0
1P - 0

US Open: 5
9b -3
SP - 1
1P - 1

DCC: 0
 
ShootingHank said:
I think he's mid tier or bottom for an American great. He is considered one of the greatest of all time due to domination but he has lost some matches he shouldn't be losing. Some say he's a choker and some say he gets coached through his listening device.

Where do you have him ranked?

For me in no partcular order:

Mosconi
Greenleaf
Strickland
Efren
Ronnie O'Sullivan
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SVB = 5 time is open champion, including 3 years in a row, and 2 world pool masters championships, including the only player to ever repeat.

Archer is my all time favorite player, but whoever put him above SVB, lol. Archer never had a break like SVB and wouldn’t have beat him consistently.

Shane easily makes the all time greats list. He will continue to dominate for another decade.
 
ChicagoRJ said:
It's a great list. And Kudos for giving Earl his due. I know you are not his biggest fan but it doesn't change his talent.

But, I'd add one thing for Varner. I'm not sure who played all games as good as he did.

If you had to play a world series of pool that included straight pool, 9b, 8b, 1p and banks, what person would you bet who would finish with the highest score, kind of like a DCC, Master of the Table :)
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I have to agree with this assessment. Jay's list was a very good one- I cannot dispute it. But of all 8 players on Jay's list, if there were a round robin marathon tournament of say three pool disciplines- 14.1, a rotation game, and perhaps one pocket - I would put my bet on Varner to come out on top. Why you say?

I also agree with someone else here who said if you put 50 of the greatest in a room- each at the top of their game- no telling who would come out the winner that day. So, to me, consistency rules the day when players of great skill meet in competition.

Nick Varner , IMO, possessed the greatest ability to maintain the ability to come with 100% of his skills on every single shot. The man had an unwavering emotional make- up that allowed him to stay on path shot after shot, game after game, no matter what the score or opponent.

My bet goes to the guy who holds up best under the pressure of a brutal competitive situation - and this would be that test - I think that Nick was wired best to deal with adversity that would no doubt surface for all 8 players during such a competition.
 
Records show that Shane is literally the all time best. I'm sorry for the older generations as I keep watching their games in black/white videos all the pockets are huge. They are bucket pockets.

If you consider the achievements Shane has done and his titles + the FIELD of players that are currently playing + the difficulty of the equipment. All these three things are considered then it is easy to see how good he is or even better than anyone else.

The only players who can compete with him in the all the best are in no particular order:

Efren Reyes
Earl Strickland
Mike Sigel

So my 4 list of players are those above + SVB, and I put SVB as the #1 because of his achievements and the difficulty of the field as of today.
 
smoochie said:
Records show that Shane is literally the all time best. I'm sorry for the older generations as I keep watching their games in black/white videos all the pockets are huge. They are bucket pockets.

If you consider the achievements Shane has done and his titles + the FIELD of players that are currently playing + the difficulty of the equipment. All these three things are considered then it is easy to see how good he is or even better than anyone else.

The only players who can compete with him in the all the best are in no particular order:

Efren Reyes
Earl Strickland
Mike Sigel

So my 4 list of players are those above + SVB, and I put SVB as the #1 because of his achievements and the difficulty of the field as of today.
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Why do people keep bringing up pocket sizes?? ALL great players would have been great on any size pockets. All you can do is play with what is being used at the time. Get ANY top player from ANY era, put them on ANY pool table and they will adjust, quickly, and play great.
 
smoochie said:
Records show that Shane is literally the all time best. I'm sorry for the older generations as I keep watching their games in black/white videos all the pockets are huge. They are bucket pockets.

If you consider the achievements Shane has done and his titles + the FIELD of players that are currently playing + the difficulty of the equipment. All these three things are considered then it is easy to see how good he is or even better than anyone else.

The only players who can compete with him in the all the best are in no particular order:

Efren Reyes
Earl Strickland
Mike Sigel

So my 4 list of players are those above + SVB, and I put SVB as the #1 because of his achievements and the difficulty of the field as of today.
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Right, because Strickland and Sigel having to face the likes of Reyes, Hall, Varner, Archer, Hopkins, Miz, West, Martin, Mathews, DeLiberto, Allen, Rempe, Massey, etc was a walk in the park. It's a gosh damn Murderers Row. The fuking Yankees could not fade this ;) lol

This is why no other sports judges folks on "what could or should be". I don't know how good a 1925 baseball pitchers slider or curveball was, but I know they didn't have the same spin rate as they do today. But, the players today all grew up with these pitchers and adapted. That's sports.

SVB is one of the best US players for sure, but against Earl, in his prime, in 9ball. That's some tough action that I would PAY to watch :)
 
I believe when you are considering the GOAT you have to consider performance over all disciplines. So someone like Johnny Archer who concentrated in 9 ball cannot be considered for the GOAT ranking even though he is a great 9 ball player and very nice person. In my opinion, Efren is the GOAT. I believe Earl is the greatest 9 ball player of all time. It would be interesting to know who Earl thinks is the GOAT. I can tell you that there is not a single match that Earl did the commentary on Billiards Network that he hasn't mentioned Efren in glowing terms. I believe even though Efren was his nemesis Earl has the greatest regard for him.
 
ShootingHank said:
I think he's mid tier or bottom for an American great. He is considered one of the greatest of all time due to domination but he has lost some matches he shouldn't be losing. Some say he's a choker and some say he gets coached through his listening device.

Where do you have him ranked?

For me in no partcular order:

Mosconi
Greenleaf
Strickland
Efren
Ronnie O'Sullivan
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that's about the dumbest thing I heard any fool say... you must have posted that on purpose just to get this reaction from a bunch of people on here... completely laughable.
 
VVP said:
I believe when you are considering the GOAT you have to consider performance over all disciplines. So someone like Johnny Archer who concentrated in 9 ball cannot be considered for the GOAT ranking even though he is a great 9 ball player and very nice person. In my opinion, Efren is the GOAT. I believe Earl is the greatest 9 ball player of all time. It would be interesting to know who Earl thinks is the GOAT. I can tell you that there is not a single match that Earl did the commentary on Billiards Network that he hasn't mentioned Efren in glowing terms. I believe even though Efren was his nemesis Earl has the greatest regard for him.
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You have to remember this game doesn't pay much and players are going to concentrate on games that make them $$$. Archer and Earl both play very good 14.1 but there's ZERO money in that game. One-pocket is kind of specialized 'gaffy' game so many players don't play it much. I agree that ER is probably best all-around'r we've ever seen. Varner in his prime wasn't far behind.
 
garczar said:
You have to remember this game doesn't pay much and players are going to concentrate on games that make them $$$. Archer and Earl both play very good 14.1 but there's ZERO money in that game. One-pocket is kind of specialized 'gaffy' game so many players don't play it much. I agree that ER is probably best all-around'r we've ever seen. Varner in his prime wasn't far behind.
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agree, in the immortal words of Fast Eddie, the best is the guy with the most, right now that's Efren., but he's losing ground...
 
smoochie said:
Records show that Shane is literally the all time best. I'm sorry for the older generations as I keep watching their games in black/white videos all the pockets are huge. They are bucket pockets.

If you consider the achievements Shane has done and his titles + the FIELD of players that are currently playing + the difficulty of the equipment. All these three things are considered then it is easy to see how good he is or even better than anyone else.

The only players who can compete with him in the all the best are in no particular order:

Efren Reyes
Earl Strickland
Mike Sigel

So my 4 list of players are those above + SVB, and I put SVB as the #1 because of his achievements and the difficulty of the field as of today.
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Shane is not even in the discussion with Efren. Reyes was the best ever one pocket player, the best ever eight ball player, one of the best ever at nine ball, highly capable at both straight pool and bank pool, and he always seemed to win when the prize money was highest, such as the IPT $500,000 first prize and two scores of over $150,000 in winning the Japan Open. His win over Earl Strickland, who was at his very peak, in a race to 120, further validates his pedigree. We may never see another one in Efren's class.

It's no secret that I'm no fan of Earl, but I can't deny his pedigree or his resume. Like Shane, Earl also won 5 US Open 9-ball events, but unlike Shane he won 3 WPA World 9-ball Championships, and he won 10 Mosconi Cups. He won countless PBT and Camel Tour events, all of which featured large, super-tough internationally diverse fields. Obviously, I have no idea whether you saw Earl at his best, but he was famous for dismissing champions (Sigel, Varner, Hall, Bustamante) by scores like 11-1 and 11-2 on a regular basis in competition. He was the most dominant nine ball player we've ever seen. Shane doesn't measure up to Earl.

As for Sigel, I think that in the modern era, he is America's greatest player. Sigel and Mizerak were 1A and 1B as far as the latter part of the straight pool era, and Sigel and Strickland were 1A and 1B in the early part of the nine ball era. To have been so thoroughly dominant in both the straight pool era and the nine ball era is a feat that only Mike can claim (with due respect to Rempe and Varner, who also continued to excel after the straight pool era drew to a close). Had he not retired young in about 1994, I think Mike Sigel might have compared favorably with Efren as the greatest ever player, but I can't put Mike over Efren. Finally, Sigel didn't beat fields that were easier than what SVB has faced, as in Sigel's early campaign, winning a top event meant beating fields that included Steve Mizerak, Nick Varner, Dallas West, Allen Hopkins, Irving Crane, Lou Butera, Jim Rempe, Danny DiLiberto, Ray Martin, Luther Lassiter, Jimmy Moore and Joe Balsis. Yup, all twelve of them are in the BCA Hall of Fame today. Beyond that, such fields included the likes of Pete Margo, Larry Lisciotti, Dick Lane, Tom Jennings and other confirmed world beaters. Sigel triumphed over some of the toughest fields ever seen in pool.

Your list has the right four, but I find it impossible to put Shane over any of the other three.
 
sjm said:
Shane is not even in the discussion with Efren. Reyes was the best ever one pocket player, the best ever eight ball player, one of the best ever at nine ball, highly capable at both straight pool and bank pool, and he always seemed to win when the prize money was highest, such as the IPT $500,000 first prize and two scores of over $150,000 in winning the Japan Open. His win over Earl Strickland, who was at his very peak, in a race to 120, further validates his pedigree. We may never see another one in Efren's class.

It's no secret that I'm no fan of Earl, but I can't deny his pedigree or his resume. Like Shane, Earl also won 5 US Open 9-ball events, but unlike Shane he won 3 WPA World 9-ball Championships, and he won 10 Mosconi Cups. He won countless PBT and Camel Tour events, all of which featured large, super-tough internationally diverse fields. Obviously, I have no idea whether you saw Earl at his best, but he was famous for dismissing champions (Sigel, Varner, Hall, Bustamante) by scores like 11-1 and 11-2 on a regular basis in competition. He was the most dominant nine ball player we've ever seen. Shane doesn't measure up to Earl.

As for Sigel, I think that in the modern era, he is America's greatest player. Sigel and Mizerak were 1A and 1B as far as the latter part of the straight pool era, and Sigel and Strickland were 1A and 1B in the early part of the nine ball era. To have been so thoroughly dominant in both the straight pool era and the nine ball era is a feat that only Mike can claim (with due respect to Rempe and Varner, who also continued to excel after the straight pool era drew to a close). Had he not retired young in about 1994, I think Mike Sigel might have compared favorably with Efren as the greatest ever player, but I can't put Mike over Efren. Finally, Sigel didn't beat fields that were easier than what SVB has faced, as in Sigel's early campaign, winning a top event meant beating fields that included Steve Mizerak, Nick Varner, Dallas West, Allen Hopkins, Irving Crane, Lou Butera, Jim Rempe, Danny DiLiberto, Ray Martin, Luther Lassiter, Jimmy Moore and Joe Balsis. Yup, all twelve of them are in the BCA Hall of Fame today. Beyond that, such fields included the likes of Pete Margo, Larry Lisciotti, Dick Lane, Tom Jennings and other confirmed world beaters. Sigel triumphed over some of the toughest fields ever seen in pool.

Your list has the right four, but I find it impossible to put Shane over any of the other three.
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With you and garczar's assessment I can't agree more actually. I am thinking more and more about Efrens' game in all-around pool table, he's one of a kind so yes I think its crazy for me to put Shane above Earl, Sigel or Efren so I will retract my previous ranking as I feel garczar's also correct that all players can adjust to pocket size. Sometimes myself I feel that I play better on tighter pocket, for some reason I just focus more. One day I switched to an easy large-bucket table and I started to miss more due to me thinking that no matter how I shot the ball, it will automatically go in. But I was wrong.

Even my friend was missing more on larger pockets that day on a specific poolhall, then we switched to a very tight table and we both started to playing better with more frequent runouts. It's crazy how the brain works.
 
sjm said:
It's just too tough to compare the straight pool era to the nine ball era in pool.

In the straight pool era, the top five are surely Mosconi, Greenleaf, Crane, Sigel and Mizerak, but nearly all the straight poolers of that era were American. Of course, Luther Lassiter and Harold Worst may have been better than all of them if all-around play is the measure.

The nine ball era is much harder to gauge, but however you look at it, Shane's name is in the mix for greatest ever. There were two especially noteworthy crossover stars from the straight pool era in Sigel and Varner, who continued to be world beaters even when the primary pro game was changed. Each is in the conversation for greatest ever American player.

Shane's excellence at the US Open 9-ball and the Derby City Classic evidence just how great he has been on home soil. He has not fared nearly as well overseas, and in the large field, WPA sanctioned events offering the most elite fields in our sport's history (World 9-ball, China Open 9-ball, US Open 9-ball, All Japan 9-ball), he has never won an overseas title. That said, however, he has won silver at the World championships, bronze at the China Open. and bronze at the All-Japan, so he has, at times, excelled overseas even though the biggest titles have eluded him.

His name deserves to be alongside all-time legends like Sigel, Varner, and Strickland, Reyes and Pagulayan, but where he fits in the hierarchy of the nine ball era is not so easy to gauge. I suspect that if I made this list on some other day it might look different, but my hierarchy for this era of pool is:

Efren Reyes
Mike Sigel
Earl Strickland
Shane Van Boening
Alex Pagulayan
Nick Varner
Ralf Souquet
Johnny Archer
Buddy Hall

Throw out all the qualitative stuff. Greatness is measured in titles. Always has been, always will be. Shane's resume of titles validates that he's one of the all time greats.
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I think this is a well thought out group.
My favorite all around player is Sigel but SVB is way up there in my opinion.
SVB is close to the very top, especially when discussing American only players.
I have seen Shane torture very good players giving them the 4 & out and they didn't win a game no less a set.
When Shane was hanging around Denver and Danny Medina was still playing Danny may have won one set against Shane.
It has been 14 years since Shane won his first US Open, and he is still going strong and looks to be in great shape.
I like Shane, but still Sigel for all around great player based on I don't remember him losing very many matches, and his 150 & out run against Rempe seen on YouTube was masterful.
 
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