Where does SVB rank all time?

[AtLarge]

Shane's the best Yankee 9 and 10 baller ever imo.
In one of his US Open titles, he had to beat several WORLD champions in the final 2 days .
And had to beat Dennis in the finals .

[The following is repeated from a 2016 thread.]

Here, in one place, are Shane Van Boening's paths to victory for each of his U.S. Open 9-Ball titles:

2007

1. Sylver Ochoa 11-5​

2. Chad Pike 11-1​

3. Sparky Ferrell 11-8​

4. Marcus Chamat 11-3​

5. Ronnie Wiseman 11-8​

6. Corey Deuel 11-8​

7. Ronnie Alcano 11-4​

8. Tomoko Mekari 11-9​

9. Ronnie Alcano 13-10​

​

2007 total -- 101-56 (winning percentage 64%)​

2012

1. Bye​

2. Adam Smith 11-1​

3. Tom Karabatsos 11-2​

4. Nick Van Den Berg 11-4​

5. Chris Melling 11-4​

6. Ronnie Alcano 11-10​

7. Jose Parica 11-5​

8. Alex Pagulayan 11-5​

9. Dennis Orcollo 13-7​

​

2012 total -- 90-38 (70%)​

2013

1. Bye​

2. Ronny Oldervik 11-6​

3. Omar Al Shaheen 11-5​

4. Fabio Petroni 11-3​

5. Danny Mastermaker 11-5​

6. Jeremy Sossei 11-7​

7. Chris Melling 11-6​

8. Jayson Shaw 11-5​

9. Lee Vann Corteza 13-10​

​

2013 total -- 90-47 (66%)​

2014

1. Bye​

2. Robb Saez 11-10​

3. Earl Strickland 11-7​

4. Do Hoang Quan 11-10​

5. Karl Boyes 11-6​

6. Dennis Orcollo 11-5​

7. Nick Ekonomopoulos 11-4​

8. Dennis Orcollo 13-10​

​

2014 total -- 79-52 (60%)​

2016

1. Bye​

2. Frankie Hernandez 11-7​

3. John Morra 11-10​

4. Chang, Jung-Lin 4-11​

5. Thorsten Hohmann 11-6​

6. Corey Deuel 11-4​

7. Daryl Peach 11-7​

8. Mike Dechaine 11-6​

9. Brandon Shuff 11-4​

10. Alex Pagulayan 11-9​

11. Jeremy Jones 11-5​

12. Dennis Orcollo 11-5​

13. Jayson Shaw 11-9​

14. Chang, Jung-Lin 13-9​

​

2016 total -- 138-92 (60%)​

Total for 5 winning years -- 498-285 (64%)

 

[AtLarge]

Danny DiLiberto has seen and played the top guys through many decades. His opinion, stated a number of times on streams, is that the top players of yesterday and the top players of today are pretty much equally skilled but that more such top players exist today. That sounds reasonable to me.

And Danny names Shane Van Boening as the greatest pool player of all time. Obviously, many people hold different views.

 

[Cornerman]

I think he's mid tier or bottom for an American great. He is considered one of the greatest of all time due to domination but he has lost some matches he shouldn't be losing. Some say he's a choker and some say he gets coached through his listening device.

Where do you have him ranked?

For me in no partcular order:

Mosconi
Greenleaf
Strickland
Efren
Ronnie O'Sullivan

Why is Ronnie O on this list?

 

[jason]

FYI, here's a pertinent quote from the Consensus "Greatest of All Time" (GOAT) List thread:

"Note that I did not include players from the "straight pool era." For example, arguments can be made that Mosconi, Greenleaf, Lassiter, Hoppe, Cranfield, Crane, Worst, DeOro, Lindrum, Caras (and others) deserved to be on the list, but I purposely excluded them since it is too difficult (or impossible) for most people to compare them to players in the modern "9-ball era" (since about 1970, or the last 50 years). I at least gave them honorable mention here. For those who still object to this, wherever you see "GOAT" in this thread, read it instead as "GITME" (Greatest In The Modern Era).

There are also many great female players who were not considered in this list. They probably deserve a separate GOAT list that would include players such as Allison Fisher, Karen Corr, Siming Chen, Jean Balukas, Ruth McGinnis, Ewa Mataya Lawrence, Lori Jon Jones, Robin Dodson, Jeanette Lee, Ga Young Kim, Gerda Hofstatter, Kelly Fisher, Jasmin Ouschan, Vivian Villarreal, Pan Xiaoting, etc. These players are certainly among the GOAT female players, but not the GOAT of all players."

Ah thanks Dave. I deserve to be corrected. I had forgotten and didn't re-read your full post. My apologies.

 

[ShootingHank]

[The following is repeated from a 2016 thread.]

Here, in one place, are Shane Van Boening's paths to victory for each of his U.S. Open 9-Ball titles:

2007

1. Sylver Ochoa 11-5​

2. Chad Pike 11-1​

3. Sparky Ferrell 11-8​

4. Marcus Chamat 11-3​

5. Ronnie Wiseman 11-8​

6. Corey Deuel 11-8​

7. Ronnie Alcano 11-4​

8. Tomoko Mekari 11-9​

9. Ronnie Alcano 13-10​

​

2007 total -- 101-56 (winning percentage 64%)​

2012

1. Bye​

2. Adam Smith 11-1​

3. Tom Karabatsos 11-2​

4. Nick Van Den Berg 11-4​

5. Chris Melling 11-4​

6. Ronnie Alcano 11-10​

7. Jose Parica 11-5​

8. Alex Pagulayan 11-5​

9. Dennis Orcollo 13-7​

​

2012 total -- 90-38 (70%)​

2013

1. Bye​

2. Ronny Oldervik 11-6​

3. Omar Al Shaheen 11-5​

4. Fabio Petroni 11-3​

5. Danny Mastermaker 11-5​

6. Jeremy Sossei 11-7​

7. Chris Melling 11-6​

8. Jayson Shaw 11-5​

9. Lee Vann Corteza 13-10​

​

2013 total -- 90-47 (66%)​

2014

1. Bye​

2. Robb Saez 11-10​

3. Earl Strickland 11-7​

4. Do Hoang Quan 11-10​

5. Karl Boyes 11-6​

6. Dennis Orcollo 11-5​

7. Nick Ekonomopoulos 11-4​

8. Dennis Orcollo 13-10​

​

2014 total -- 79-52 (60%)​

2016

1. Bye​

2. Frankie Hernandez 11-7​

3. John Morra 11-10​

4. Chang, Jung-Lin 4-11​

5. Thorsten Hohmann 11-6​

6. Corey Deuel 11-4​

7. Daryl Peach 11-7​

8. Mike Dechaine 11-6​

9. Brandon Shuff 11-4​

10. Alex Pagulayan 11-9​

11. Jeremy Jones 11-5​

12. Dennis Orcollo 11-5​

13. Jayson Shaw 11-9​

14. Chang, Jung-Lin 13-9​

​

2016 total -- 138-92 (60%)​

Total for 5 winning years -- 498-285 (64%)

What is Strickland's record for this tournament?

Almost every tournament back in the days was like a "US Open".

Cannot pick and choose a tournament that he dominates in just because of the name of the tournament.

 

[Jaden]

What is Strickland's record for this tournament?

Almost every tournament back in the days was like a "US Open".

Cannot pick and choose a tournament that he dominates in just because of the name of the tournament.

I've come to the conclusion that you are either a massive troll, or an incredible imbecile...

Jaden

 

[book collector]

First off Efren and Ronnie aren't Americans Mosconi and Greenleaf were straight pool experts in a time when it was the major game , Shane plays good 14.1 for as few opportunities, or reasons there are, to even play the game nowadays.
Strickland is arguably the best nine ball player who ever lived.
Lets say there are 10 super grandmaster American nine ball players of all time , what 5 to 7 do you place above him ?
Hint ......Alex and Dennis are not Americans either.

I was told by a pretty good hustler that Mosconi robbed a lot of top nine ball players" out of sight", because of his image with Brunswick

 

[PoolBum]

If we're just talking greatest American players from any era, SVB is on my short list (top 10-12 players).

For me, that list would include (chronologically):

Greenleaf
Mosconi
Crane
Lassiter
Worst
Mizerak
Hall
Sigel
Varner
Strickland
Archer
SVB

For the greatest all-around American players ever my very short list would be (again, chronologically):

Worst
Lassiter
Varner

I would also put Varner and Worst on the short list of greatest all-around players ever, along with Efren.

 

[PoolBum]

7. Nick Varner - He got the most out of his game, clawing his way to the top echelon.

Jay, I first read that as "chewing his way to the top echelon," which I think would also be accurate.

 

[Fatboy]

It's just too tough to compare the straight pool era to the nine ball era in pool.

In the straight pool era, the top five are surely Mosconi, Greenleaf, Crane, Sigel and Mizerak, but nearly all the straight poolers of that era were American. Of course, Luther Lassiter and Harold Worst may have been better than all of them if all-around play is the measure.

The nine ball era is much harder to gauge, but however you look at it, Shane's name is in the mix for greatest ever. There were two especially noteworthy crossover stars from the straight pool era in Sigel and Varner, who continued to be world beaters even when the primary pro game was changed. Each is in the conversation for greatest ever American player.

Shane's excellence at the US Open 9-ball and the Derby City Classic evidence just how great he has been on home soil. He has not fared nearly as well overseas, and in the large field, WPA sanctioned events offering the most elite fields in our sport's history (World 9-ball, China Open 9-ball, US Open 9-ball, All Japan 9-ball), he has never won an overseas title. That said, however, he has won silver at the World championships, bronze at the China Open. and bronze at the All-Japan, so he has, at times, excelled overseas even though the biggest titles have eluded him.

His name deserves to be alongside all-time legends like Sigel, Varner, and Strickland, Reyes and Pagulayan, but where he fits in the hierarchy of the nine ball era is not so easy to gauge. I suspect that if I made this list on some other day it might look different, but my hierarchy for this era of pool is:

Efren Reyes
Mike Sigel
Earl Strickland
Shane Van Boening
Alex Pagulayan
Nick Varner
Ralf Souquet
Johnny Archer
Buddy Hall

Throw out all the qualitative stuff. Greatness is measured in titles. Always has been, always will be. Shane's resume of titles validates that he's one of the all time greats.

Great post Stu! Well said!

 

[book collector]

I also remember Mike Sigel chewing out Nick Varner for playing Johnny Archer cheap one pocket and teaching him the moves. The gist of the speech was " Why don't you play him some 10 dollar straight pool and then we won't be able to beat him at anything! That was in the mid to late 80s, lol ,Archer never seemed to miss a ball for a couple of years , then he became human again .

 

[measureman]

I was told by a pretty good hustler that Mosconi robbed a lot of top nine ball players" out of sight", because of his image with Brunswick

Not surprising Willie had superb cue ball control.

 

[jay helfert]

It's a great list. And Kudos for giving Earl his due. I know you are not his biggest fan but it doesn't change his talent.

But, I'd add one thing for Varner. I'm not sure who played all games as good as he did.

If you had to play a world series of pool that included straight pool, 9b, 8b, 1p and banks, what person would you bet who would finish with the highest score, kind of like a DCC, Master of the Table

Talking about all the above in their prime, It would have to come down to Sigel or Varner. I'd probably give a slight edge to Mike. I'm sure Buddy could play Straight Pool but he rarely if ever did. I don't remember him ever playing in a major 14.1 event. Mike and Nick excelled at all those games, including Banks. Mizerak played all games at an equally high level, but he had no Bank Pool resume.

 

[PoolBum]

Talking about all the above in their prime, It would have to come down to Sigel or Varner. I'd probably give a slight edge to Mike. I'm sure Buddy could play Straight Pool but he rarely if ever did. I don't remember him ever playing in a major 14.1 event. Mike and Nick excelled at all those games, including Banks. Mizerak played all games at an equally high level, but he had no Bank Pool resume.

I once asked Pat Fleming who he thought was the better all-around player, Varner or Sigel, and he instantly said Varner.

Sigel was better, I think, if we just consider the top two championship games of straight pool and 9 ball (there's an argument that he might be the best ever, considering just those two games), but when you add banks, 8 ball, and one pocket, I think I might give a slight edge to Nick as well.

 

[PoolBum]

I also remember Mike Sigel chewing out Nick Varner for playing Johnny Archer cheap one pocket and teaching him the moves. The gist of the speech was " Why don't you play him some 10 dollar straight pool and then we won't be able to beat him at anything! That was in the mid to late 80s, lol ,Archer never seemed to miss a ball for a couple of years , then he became human again .

Johnny Archer was the first player I ever saw in person that I knew I could never be as good as.

 

[jay helfert]

I once asked Pat Fleming who he thought was the better all-around player, Varner or Sigel, and he instantly said Varner.

Sigel was better, I think, if we just consider the top two championship games of straight pool and 9 ball (there's an argument that he might be the best ever, just considering those two games), but when you add banks, 8 ball, and one pocket, I think I might give a slight edge to Nick as well.

Let's just say it's close and open to opinion. In tournament play Mike got the better of Nick more often than Nick did.

 

[garczar]

Talking about all the above in their prime, It would have to come down to Sigel or Varner. I'd probably give a slight edge to Mike. I'm sure Buddy could play Straight Pool but he rarely if ever did. I don't remember him ever playing in a major 14.1 event. Mike and Nick excelled at all those games, including Banks. Mizerak played all games at an equally high level, but he had no Bank Pool resume.

Buddy didn't like it 'cause it never paid jack shit. He can play 14.1 pretty sporty.

 

[westcoast]

I'm not Shane's biggest fan, but anybody who doesn't rank him near the top of any list of the greatest 9 ball or 10 ball players of all time must have some type of strong bias or agenda against him. The guy is a machine and has been excelling for well over a decade- a longevity of excellence that few others can measure up to past or present.

 

[jay helfert]

Buddy didn't like it 'cause it never paid jack shit. He can play 14.1 pretty sporty.

I'm sure he could. I do know he ran over 300 balls in practice. There were a few very prestigious Straight Pool events during his prime years (with decent prize money) that he avoided. Buddy didn't like to lose to anyone and I have to think that he did not want to jump into an event and have to play against Mizerak, Sigel, Varner, Rempe, Hopkins, West, Diliberto, Butera or Ray Martin. Sorry to say but Buddy would not be the favorite in this field. Playing all of the above at 9-Ball, One Pocket or Banks was a lot more appealing to him I'm sure. As far as the smaller prize money is concerned, Buddy rarely missed a bar table tourney with a $1,000 first prize. He must have won a hundred of them!

 

[jay helfert]

[The following is repeated from a 2016 thread.]

Here, in one place, are Shane Van Boening's paths to victory for each of his U.S. Open 9-Ball titles:

2007

1. Sylver Ochoa 11-5​

2. Chad Pike 11-1​

3. Sparky Ferrell 11-8​

4. Marcus Chamat 11-3​

5. Ronnie Wiseman 11-8​

6. Corey Deuel 11-8​

7. Ronnie Alcano 11-4​

8. Tomoko Mekari 11-9​

9. Ronnie Alcano 13-10​

​

2007 total -- 101-56 (winning percentage 64%)​

2012

1. Bye​

2. Adam Smith 11-1​

3. Tom Karabatsos 11-2​

4. Nick Van Den Berg 11-4​

5. Chris Melling 11-4​

6. Ronnie Alcano 11-10​

7. Jose Parica 11-5​

8. Alex Pagulayan 11-5​

9. Dennis Orcollo 13-7​

​

2012 total -- 90-38 (70%)​

2013

1. Bye​

2. Ronny Oldervik 11-6​

3. Omar Al Shaheen 11-5​

4. Fabio Petroni 11-3​

5. Danny Mastermaker 11-5​

6. Jeremy Sossei 11-7​

7. Chris Melling 11-6​

8. Jayson Shaw 11-5​

9. Lee Vann Corteza 13-10​

​

2013 total -- 90-47 (66%)​

2014

1. Bye​

2. Robb Saez 11-10​

3. Earl Strickland 11-7​

4. Do Hoang Quan 11-10​

5. Karl Boyes 11-6​

6. Dennis Orcollo 11-5​

7. Nick Ekonomopoulos 11-4​

8. Dennis Orcollo 13-10​

​

2014 total -- 79-52 (60%)​

2016

1. Bye​

2. Frankie Hernandez 11-7​

3. John Morra 11-10​

4. Chang, Jung-Lin 4-11​

5. Thorsten Hohmann 11-6​

6. Corey Deuel 11-4​

7. Daryl Peach 11-7​

8. Mike Dechaine 11-6​

9. Brandon Shuff 11-4​

10. Alex Pagulayan 11-9​

11. Jeremy Jones 11-5​

12. Dennis Orcollo 11-5​

13. Jayson Shaw 11-9​

14. Chang, Jung-Lin 13-9​

​

2016 total -- 138-92 (60%)​

Total for 5 winning years -- 498-285 (64%)

:Look at who Shane beat to win the Open in 2012. It's a who's who of the best Filipino players alive. Plus he had to get by Van Den Berg at his peak and Chris Melling, who was a great player. Now that's impressive. He belongs right up there with Buddy, Earl and Sigel as one of the best American players of the last thirty years. He's top five for sure! Give him another five or ten years on top and he may be top one!

It is definitely true that Shane had to beat very strong fields of International champions to win his biggest victories, but that does not in any way diminish the equally strong fields of American champions that Buddy, Earl, Mike, Nick and Johnny faced. Parica, Efren, Francisco, Luat and other Filipino champs were in those fields as well. Plus throw in Souquet, Mika and Niels into the mix during the last twenty years.