Which 8 Ball rules for TAR 28?

[West Point 1987]

My mistake, I stand corrected...I played APA in the 80s and it was open after the break then...at least in the Louisiana franchises I played in. We went from Busch League to Coors Light League with APA somewhere in the middle. Handicaps were different back then, too. Haven't touched it since 1990...:grin-square:

 

[emf123]

I think the table will humble them (somewhat) to make it a challenging enough game. I don't like the idea of changing the rules for the pros - make the equipment tougher for them. I think the stats Celtic provided illustrate that 8 ball doesn't have to be a run-out fest at the pro level.

Eric

 

[StraightPoolIU]

I voted for open after the break. I think it will be entertaining regardless, but I think the table is tough enough that we don't have to alter the world standardized rules in any way to make it more challenging. Should be good.

 

[quadrary]

On this tight table, I don't see playing "take what you make" significantly tilting the scales to one player over the other. Both will play by the same rules. I'm surprised this rule is making this much hullaballoo.

Regardless, I'm leaning towards making it tougher and forcing them to play more strategic - take what you make. I think it will be more interesting watching these guys having to risk or safe a little more. But I really don't give a rat's rump; it'll be good either way to me. Calling it ball banger bar rules seems contradictory when it's a tougher game.

If you are going to play what you make you should have a push like in 9 ball to weigh it back to the breaker who made a ball dont think many would like that.

 

[JumpinJoe]

From all of the games both players played in the IPT. The IPT used larger pockets which were easier then the TAR table but used slower cloth which is more difficult.

John
146 W 137 L (51.59%)
B&R %* = 12.37%
% of wins by B&R: 23.97%

Corey
301 W 249 L (54.73%)
B&R %* = 17.27%
% of wins by B&R: 31.56%

The key here is the % of wins by B&R. For John of the games he won only 23.97% were B&R's, in the other 76.03% of the games he played his opponent got to the table at least once. And John had an overall winning percentage in the IPT.

For Corey 31.56% of his wins came via B&R's. In the other 68.44% of his wins his opponent got to the table. Corey also had a winning percentage in the IPT.

Both of these players were strong competition in the IPT, and neither were running out to nearly the extent that people seem to think they are going to.

Not a single pro in the IPT won over 50% of their games via B&R's, and they were not playing on a 4 1/8th cut diamond. This is going to be some challenging 8-ball without messing with the rules.

These stats are meaningless. Corey actually played pool then, atleast alittle more than now. . He no longer is dedicated to this game, he gets by on raw talent, probaly the most talented player on the planet.
If he put the work into his game that SVB did, Corey would be a top 5 player in the world, hands down

 

[vasilios]

I woke up to a disappointed 8 ball jihadist when he found out we were going to play take what you make in the eight ball set on Corey's recommendation. It makes absolutely no difference to me and I see the argument for playing both ways.

So I will let this poll decide. It will run for 24 hours.

Do we play take what you make or open after the break ?

I think the player's should be a stripe or a solid for the entire match.If Cory chooses to be solid balls,he stays with the solids through the whole match.when Cory breaks the one ball is the head ball.nine ball is the head ball when John breaks.they will always make a good hit on the break.plus the viewers wont keep asking whose got what.If Cory makes a ball on the break he gets to continue but he has to shoot solids.

bill

 

[markjames]

8 ball

make it take it is a fake rule, successful breaker deserves a decision

 

[Celtic]

These stats are meaningless. Corey actually played pool then, atleast alittle more than now. . He no longer is dedicated to this game, he gets by on raw talent, probaly the most talented player on the planet.
If he put the work into his game that SVB did, Corey would be a top 5 player in the world, hands down

I agree with all of that. I posted those stats to show some facts that conflict against those that think the pro's break and run 60-80% of 8-ball racks on a 9-foot that they shoot on. They simply don't.

If anything Corey's lack of focus on the game in recent years will lower his break and run average and this will make the "make it take it" rule even less needed.

 

[seussman]

Take what you make. More challenging.

 

[Cornerman]

I find this whole thing silly. Some of the answers suggest that some of you think 8-ball rules have been stable and set forever. World 8-ball Championships have been won with "take what you make, slop from there on." So... what do we conclude from that??? Nothing other than rules are rules, and you play by whatever rules are set or you leave.

Pros played every ruleset possible. So, choosing a set of rules should have nothing to do with what people believe is punishment, what professsionals use, what's good for amateurs, ya da ya da.

Make rules. Play. I'd say to use World Standardized because there's a book on it. On the other hand, I have no issue if they used APA rules. Hell, I want to see them play Central Mass Bar Rules.

Freddie <~~~ all the rules suck and all the rules are great

 

[lfigueroa]

I think the player's should be a stripe or a solid for the entire match.If Cory chooses to be solid balls,he stays with the solids through the whole match.when Cory breaks the one ball is the head ball.nine ball is the head ball when John breaks.they will always make a good hit on the break.plus the viewers wont keep asking whose got what.If Cory makes a ball on the break he gets to continue but he has to shoot solids.

bill

I would be scared to death of whatever Cory suggested because I'm thinking he's such an innovator that he's probably come up with a break that will put me in a total death trap

Lou Figueroa

 

[Celtic]

Pros played every ruleset possible. So, choosing a set of rules should have nothing to do with what people believe is punishment, what professsionals use, what's good for amateurs, ya da ya da.

It should come down to what the people watching the sport want to see. Whatever rules put more people in the seats, get more PPV sales, get more people seeing sponsor logos, that is the rules that pool should be striving to put out there because at the end of the day I think 99% of us want to see pool grow in popularity as a spectator sport.

I think it is a very good poll that JCIN posted, an important poll for someone like him who is actually actively presenting the professional sport to a fairly large and growing fanbase. This poll and the information he gets from it is important.

I certainly do not agree with you on this

I find this whole thing silly.

I think quite the opposite, I think this poll is one of the most useful things this forum has seen in a while and can actually actively help this sport moving forward. I mean, it is this or "how long does it take to get a JB case". Which is the silly thread again?

 

[elvicash]

If someone can string racks of 8 ball it will be more interesting to watch and I think open after the break will make that possble.I do not think anyone will run more than 3 racks of 8 ball but I expect a 3 pack might very well show up if they play open after the break. I voted open after the break because I like offensive pool.

These guys do not play for luck we know that but I also do not mind for occasional luck to change the game, they do not have to kick extra points clean in the NFL and shooting free throws we all see balls hit the rim, the backboard and roll in or out. I for one would not mind if they played open after the break, hit your kind find first, 8 ball neutral when open, slop counts and call the pocket only for the 8 ball. I know these rules will not be the rules for the match but it would make for potential match changers to occur and work for a player who gets the occasional roll. I know there are a lot of 2 and 3 way shots that these creative players could go for that they will not because if it does not work the risk reward will be to high.

I think Schmidt has a shot at taking down all 3 matches but Corey is crazy good sometimes so it will be something to watch.

 

[supergreenman]

On this tight table, I don't see playing "take what you make" significantly tilting the scales to one player over the other. Both will play by the same rules. I'm surprised this rule is making this much hullaballoo.

Regardless, I'm leaning towards making it tougher and forcing them to play more strategic - take what you make. I think it will be more interesting watching these guys having to risk or safe a little more. But I really don't give a rat's rump; it'll be good either way to me. Calling it ball banger bar rules seems contradictory when it's a tougher game.

Punishing the breaker for successfully sinking a ball off the break is banger rules period. It gives the non-breaking player an advantage and that's not right.

It's got little to do with adding difficulty to the game as it makes it easier for the non-breaking player.

 

[justadub]

Punishing the breaker for successfully sinking a ball off the break is banger rules period. It gives the non-breaking player an advantage and that's not right.

It's got little to do with adding difficulty to the game as it makes it easier for the non-breaking player.

Let me see if I understand correctly then..... The man who is such an innovator at the break that they had to change the rules wants "take what you make".....and you claim its a banger rule that gives the advantage to the guy in his seat?

Do I have that right? Corey wants a "banger rule"?

 

[nine_ball6970]

I would prefer to see this as take what you make but it looks as if open table after the break is what will win. Everyone says you are penalized if you do not leave yourself a shot on your group after the break. I do not agree with this at all. I think that is when most of the 8 ball strategy occurs. Figuring out ways to tie up balls and not give your opponent a chance at an easy run out is what makes 8 ball such a great game. The best 8 ball matches are the ones where the player who can out-think his opponent wins. I feel most people here just want it to be a run out fest vs a pure game of strategy. I also think most people who voted for open after the break don't enjoy watching one pocket but love watching 9 ball. Just my two cents.

 

[Celtic]

I would prefer to see this as take what you make but it looks as if open table after the break is what will win. Everyone says you are penalized if you do not leave yourself a shot on your group after the break. I do not agree with this at all. I think that is when most of the 8 ball strategy occurs. Figuring out ways to tie up balls and not give your opponent a chance at an easy run out is what makes 8 ball such a great game.

Yes, but how is it that the breaker is not still penalized by being forced to take the grouping of balls that are in fact far worse after a successful break after they have pocketed a ball? Any 8-ball player knows there are times when one grouping of balls is far better then the other, and if you make a ball from the very messed up grouping you are starting at a disadvantage compared to the player who did nothing but sit in their chair and watch you break and cashed in on the better layout.

Of course that is being penalized, on a really crappy table that one shot you have after the break is usually not enough to turn around a very messed up table for one grouping when the other grouping has jawed balls and a clear runout. All that will happen is a player is forced to take a flyer on their crap grouping, they miss some tough long bank or the like, and the non-breaking player comes waltzing up and cleans up his nice easy table he got gifted on the break and the rules that handcuffed his opponent.

That type of luck I do not want to see. At least when the breaker is getting the choice they A) broke hard enough and with enough control to make a ball and B) had enough control on the cueball to get their good opening shot. They at lerast did something to deserve the better grouping, what did the guy sitting in his chair do to deserve the better grouping? Won the "take what you make break" lottery, that is all. Where does his strategy and great play come in for him stepping onto the table for the first time with so much better of a layout then his opponent who had a good break and got unlucky enough to make a solid and not a stripe.

 

[supergreenman]

Let me see if I understand correctly then..... The man who is such an innovator at the break that they had to change the rules wants "take what you make".....and you claim its a banger rule that gives the advantage to the guy in his seat?

Do I have that right? Corey wants a "banger rule"?

I believe you have that right sir. Just because Corey thinks he can exploit that rule better than John doesn't make it any less of a banger rule.

 

[nine_ball6970]

Yes, but how is it that the breaker is not still penalized by being forced to take the grouping of balls that are in fact far worse after a successful break after they have pocketed a ball? Any 8-ball player knows there are times when one grouping of balls is far better then the other, and if you make a ball from the very messed up grouping you are starting at a disadvantage compared to the player who did nothing but sit in their chair and watch you break and cashed in on the better layout.

Of course that is being penalized, on a really crappy table that one shot you have after the break is usually not enough to turn around a very messed up table for one grouping when the other grouping has jawed balls and a clear runout. All that will happen is a player is forced to take a flyer on their crap grouping, they miss some tough long bank or the like, and the non-breaking player comes waltzing up and cleans up his nice easy table he got gifted on the break and the rules that handcuffed his opponent.

That type of luck I do not want to see. At least when the breaker is getting the choice they A) broke hard enough and with enough control to make a ball and B) had enough control on the cueball to get their good opening shot. They at lerast did something to deserve the better grouping, what did the guy sitting in his chair do to deserve the better grouping? Won the "take what you make break" lottery, that is all. Where does his strategy and great play come in for him stepping onto the table for the first time with so much better of a layout then his opponent who had a good break and got unlucky enough to make a solid and not a stripe.

You don't really understand my point. Corey asked for this rule for a reason. I believe it is because he thinks he is a better player than John with a better overall strategy. Why do you think he would ask for this if he thought it would penalize him in some way? Corey will find ways to not sell out in the situations you described above whereas some weaker players would go for those flier banks or other low percentage shots you mentioned. Did you miss the part of my post about tying up balls etc if you do not have a great run at your grouping? The breaker only loses their advantage if either they do not make a ball or cannot see a single ball from their group if they do make a ball. It takes much more skill to be able to run multiple racks with take what you make. High level pros made a joke of open after the break in 8 ball during the USBTC. Like I said before it depends on whether you like playing checkers or chess.

 

[justadub]

I love this place.... Really. I do.