Which game is the best measure of greatness?

[Jimmy M.]

Mike had Efren's number in 9-ball tournaments during the 80's when Efren first came here. In the 90's, Efren had surpassed Mike in 9-ball.

The difference was Sigel's break. Efren's break used to be pretty bad by professional standards. It wasn't until some time in the 90's that he started breaking better. The funny thing is, people still like to say that Efren has a weak break. Yeah, 20 years ago, I'd agree. He had a pretty weak break. These days, while he isn't jumping in the air, finishing with his cue pointed somewhere over the center-field fence, or participating in any of the other common break-shot-theatrics, he has a pretty good break.

 

[CreeDo]

I go with straights because you really just have to be able to shoot. Eventually you'll be tested and if you don't make the long cut, the bank, the weird over-the-rack awkward shot, the overly sharp cut in the side, etc etc... you might be done. There's no next game. You have to be able to make all kinds of shots. Sure, 1P has more banking, but I have more respect for the guy who can make 100 14.1 shots with precise position and controlled breakouts than the guy who can make 8 banks in a row.

1 pocket's strategy seems deeper than straight pool's, but it's not like you don't have to hook the opponent in straight pool too... it just comes up less frequently, and you gotta hide him from a shot in all 6 pockets, not just the one. Also I think you don't have to be quite as much of a shotmaker, because it's one of the few games where close enough IS close enough (sometimes close enough is better than making it?!).

I wish I could see enough rotation to consider it for the title. If jay says it's right up there then I guess I'll buy that.

 

[StraightPoolIU]

I go with straights because you really just have to be able to shoot. Eventually you'll be tested and if you don't make the long cut, the bank, the weird over-the-rack awkward shot, the overly sharp cut in the side, etc etc... you might be done. There's no next game. You have to be able to make all kinds of shots. Sure, 1P has more banking, but I have more respect for the guy who can make 100 14.1 shots with precise position and controlled breakouts than the guy who can make 8 banks in a row.

1 pocket's strategy seems deeper than straight pool's, but it's not like you don't have to hook the opponent in straight pool too... it just comes up less frequently, and you gotta hide him from a shot in all 6 pockets, not just the one. Also I think you don't have to be quite as much of a shotmaker, because it's one of the few games where close enough IS close enough (sometimes close enough is better than making it?!).

I wish I could see enough rotation to consider it for the title. If jay says it's right up there then I guess I'll buy that.

Tap, Tap, Tap

 

[Jimmy M.]

1 pocket's strategy seems deeper than straight pool's

I know you probably know this, but I'm going to add to this by saying that there is a TON of strategy that goes into running a bunch of balls when it's done right. There will be the occasional run by someone who isn't really a "straight pool player", but is a very good "pool player". They might have a decent run on sheer ability once in a while, but not very often; especially when you start talking about runs in the 2-300's. It wasn't until I really started playing the game, and was (still am) lucky enough to have someone here in Phoenix who knows the game very well and who is willing to share what he knows, that I started to realize just how much depth there is to this game. IMO, and I've said this before, it's the most sophisticated game played on a pool table.

 

[MTfish]

I love straight pool but I don't think it's is fair to say it's the best game to determine greatness when so many of today's best players don't play it. I think the best game to decide a players greatness is the one that draws the hardest competition in its era. I think today that is nine ball, with one pocket a great standard in gambling circles. In the Philliphines it's rotation. I don't think any one game is the best for picking the greatest players. The players have to decide that by who beats who.

 

[3andstop]

Well, I think at least its fair to say that when we play each of the games .... 9 ball, one pocket and straight pool nearly to the best of our individual abilities, and then compare what we have done to world class play, I don't think there's much question that straight pool is the one that makes you look like you never played before in comparison.

 

[Jimmy M.]

I love straight pool but I don't think it's is fair to say it's the best game to determine greatness when so many of today's best players don't play it. I think the best game to decide a players greatness is the one that draws the hardest competition in its era. I think today that is nine ball, with one pocket a great standard in gambling circles. In the Philliphines it's rotation. I don't think any one game is the best for picking the greatest players. The players have to decide that by who beats who.

I'd have a difficult time subscribing to that idea. If 3-ball suddenly became "the game" and all of the professional tournaments were 3-ball tournaments, I don't believe that an argument could be made for it being the best game to decide greatness - no matter how many people were playing it. Compared to some of the other games, 9-ball, especially when played by the current rules, is about as difficult, in comparison, as 3-ball would be when compared to 9-ball. That might be a bit of an exaggeration but, perhaps, not too far off.

Yes, everyone is playing it. Is it the greatest game as a measure of skill? Hmm. I would argue against that.

 

[Kevin]

Hard to say

Each game has a different blend of skills necessary to play well.

3 Cushion billiards is all about the cue ball and banking angles, memory for patterns, and shot selection with higher percentages when choosing whether to shorten up a 3-rail natural with draw, or lengthen it out with follow and spin to go 5 rails long and catch the ball coming out of the corner. Then blending the hit, speed, and spin to miss kisses, etc.

I don't play straight rail, but I have seen balkline played and delicate masses and precise speed control on gather shots take tremendous skill, and it is no wonder Efren loves this game and played it in his 20's when nobody would play him rotation. His mastery of the cue ball owes a good bit to his skill at this lost game I suspect.

14-1 I enjoy, it has a smooth offensive rhythm that is a pleasure to play, and developing cue ball control for the right angles to nudge clusters apart or coming off the rail with just the right spin and speed to bump break balls into position, proper pattern play so you end up great on key balls and the break shot is a challenge. In truth if you are playing reasonably well neither shotmaking nor safety play is very difficult, but learning caroms combos and dead ones in the stack take experience. Excellent practice game, and for top level players an exercise in sustained concentration.

Rotation games like 9 ball are challenging, especially coming with the tough shot and getting the right position to sustain the runout, but defensively since there is only one legal ball to hit, most players are stunted defensively if they play rotation games too long. And full-rack rotation is a better practice game because 6 more balls on the table makes cue ball routing and control that much more difficult.

I think 1-pocket is the best of all pocket billiard games with an opponent because of the mix of offensive skills necessary to play well: banking, caroms, reading the stack, speed control, oddball shots, etc. You need a really well-rounded game, tremendous creativity and a slightly sadistic taste in strategic smarts to keep your opponent on the rail, next to his pocket, behind a ball, and mentally twisted into a pretzel.

Because my stroke and shotmaking have never in truth been top-notch, I get more pleasure out of banking and defense, so my top 3 games are 3C, 14-1, and the true champions game, 1pocket. Hail King Efren.

 

[jay helfert]

I feel you said it well David. Buddy was IMO the best at 9-ball, so why wasnt he the best at 14.1? Same could be said of Mosconi and 14.1 vs 1-pocket or 9-ball. Who says that they couldn't have been. They all had their game of choice and obviously enjoyed them more than other games.

Myself, I would like to haven taken Worst, Ron Allen Moscconi, Buddy, Crane and Lassiter and locked them all in the pool hall for about 1 week, and well, just see what may have happened.

I like that, locked in a poolroom for a week. Mosconi wouldn't have wanted to play anyone and only Lassiter would have played Crane 14.1. Ronnie would have gone in with Worst and put him up against Buddy. Somehow, some way, Ronnie would have ended up with all the money. He would have out maneuvered and manipulated all of these guys where they wouldn't know which end of the cue to chalk after five days.

Only Worst had a chance and that is because Ronnie was in with him. If it finally got heads up between these two, Ronnie would have given Worst two balls and taken the break in One Pocket. Ding Ding, Pay Day! After a week, they would all be glad to escape, except for Ronnie. He would be asking about the next time they can get together. They wouldn't be able to explain what happened either. How did the worst player get all the money?

 

[jay helfert]

I would agree with Jay that the two most difficult games to play are rotation,and one pocket.Reyes is unbeatable at both games,but is vulnerable in all other games. Rotation is the most demanding game ,constantly challenging you to free up clusters,and at the same time playing position on the next ball with the correct angle for the next shot. Plus you have to be an excellent shot maker ,not to mention all the differen't strokes that you need to develope. Straight pool is not nearly as complex mainly because of all the options that are readily available. One pocket is another difficult game to play world class,because it requires skills in every facet of pool, shot making,position play,kicking,ball running,managing,creativity,and you must have defensive skills. I remember Reyes spotting Hopkins the 15 ball playing rotation, and Reyes won. I also remember in Portland Maine when Reyes,Wiley,and Strickland entered a straight pool tounament with a quality field and finished 1st.2nd.and 3rd.

Nice explanation. Thanks. Interesting that the best player at these two games happens to be the best player in the world.

 

[MTfish]

I think if 3 ball became the professional's game, you'd see some really good 3 ball. Seriously, everyone likes to rag on 9 ball because they say it doesn't take as much skill. "It's all about shot making and breaking". Shot making and breaking are both skills. I agree that today's rules make the game more of a crap shoot and give the break too much importance. I would like to see more tournaments played with the old push out rules, but 9 ball is still a great game and I believe it takes as much physical skill as any other pool game.

 

[Jimmy M.]

I also remember in Portland Maine when Reyes,Wiley,and Strickland entered a straight pool tounament with a quality field and finished 1st.2nd.and 3rd.

I'm not too incredibly surprised with Efren and Strickland. I also wouldn't want to try to challenge your pool knowledge, but I wouldn't use those two as an example of how easy straight pool is. Efren has got to be a favorite in any game on a pool table, especially when all 15 balls are used. As for Earl, and you would probably know much better than I if there were any truth to this, he is supposed to be a very good straight pool player. He either posted this here or I read it in an interview of his, but Earl claimed to have run something like 400+ balls. If there's even a shred of truth to that, I'm not surprised to see him finish at, or near, the top of any straight pool tournament.

By the way, I saw you at a tournament in Riverside a few years back. I'm the guy who told you that I asked you to play for the TABLE TIME one time when I was a kid at Hard Times.

(For anyone else interested, he actually did play me a set for the time - I lost - but it was a very cool gesture to play some kid for funzies)