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Which Instructor ? ??
- Thread starter BmoreMoney
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Rick...Your "dumbass" quotient is showing. Randy Goettlicher was the FIRST Master Instructor. Fran came long after.
There are different levels of certified instructors because more knowledge equates to higher level instruction (most of the time). Sadly there are a few Master Instructors who cannot play and cannot teach well...certainly none of the instructors Randy or I have certified fall into this catagory.
Smoothstroke learned what he knows from Randyg. That should tell you something...
Once again, you show that you have a closed mind, and cannot nor will not open it even a little, so that you might be able to learn somthing new. BTW, good job hogging the thread. You've got 40 out of 99 posts in this thread! Egads!
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Well... once again you show yours here...
as I did NOT say ANYTHING about who was the FISRT BCA Master Instructor.
I think it is very telling that one can be certified in the program as a MASTER INSTRUCTOR & in your opinion they can NOT play or teach very well at all.
Perhaps they would be of the same opinion of you.
Which basically says that the certification process is basically useless. At least as you are showing it to be here.
It's basically one instructor's opinion of another. So & So certifies this guy as a Master & So & So certifies that guy as a Master & one thinks that the other Master Instructor is crap & undeserving of the designation. Perhaps there are some Master Instructors or others that think the same of you.
Why would anyone want to take lessons from a lesser instructor that according to you does not have as much knowledge as other instructors?
Also why would one want to base their selection on the rating of Master Instructor when they may be one of the ones that in your opinion can not play or teach well at all?
If that is the case for the designation of Master Instructor, then what must it be for the lower designations?
My post count is that high because I have been responding to all of the crap put out by a select few like you have in your post here.
If ChicagoRJ had not posted to &/or about me, then I would probably have only made one or possibly two posts in this thread.
But then once it started & restarted then DTL came along.
Now You.
All because I answered the OPs question with Fran Crimi & CJ Wiley.
Really?
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There's a exception for every rule , however like I said other than Bubba in golf theirs virtually zero world class athlete that does not get coaching ,
There's no question pool for yrs was a jump in the box learn on your own game / sport
But the fact remains many of top word players now are players that have received coaching / instruction and that number is surly going to rise 10 fold
10 yrs from now a Bubba Watson in pool will be 1 in 100 at best ,,
1
Clones rarely become Champions. It's usually when they leave dictates of others & put their own stamp on matters that they get above the level of the other clones.
I guess You & I don't see it the same & we will not agree one with the other.
That's fine. You'll probably see how it turns out for the next generation while I'll probably be playing on the white cloth of clouds & you may hear the thunder when I break.
You Be & Stay Well,
Rick
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Someone that has "been there and done that" not just someone with a piece of paper that says .blah blah blah... John B.
I don't play anywhere near the level I played at 40 years ago, but I can still play at an above-A level even though I only play a few hours once a week on Sundays.
If you can beat me regularly, you don't need an instructor..you need a "backer".
If you can beat me regularly, you don't need an instructor..you need a "backer".
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I've taken a lesson or lessons from the following people that I can remember. Here is what my experience was: (In roughly chronological order)
Ron Tocci: old school straight pool player from Nashua, NH. High run over 150. Basically taught right out of Phil Cappelle's books. However, added his own extremely helpful imagery for a variety of things like keeping my hand straight, how the hit should feel, strategic decisions in 8 and 9 ball. I probably took about 6 1-2 hr private lessons with him around the time that I was an APA 5. I found it extremely helpful.
Earl Strickland: Spent about 2 hours alone with him. I specifically asked to go over kicking and safeties. He spent about 1/2 hour having me do a few shots to see how I shoot and how I can spin the ball. Then we did exactly what I wanted...went over kicking and safes. For about an hour after, he would play safe and I would have to kick, then I would play safe and he would have to kick. All the while he was advising me. I would say overall this was one of the better lessons I've had.
Randy Goetlicher: This was a group thing with another PBIA instructor. Randy was sort of the guest instructor. However, I VERY much liked Randy's style. He did not try to force any particular methods on me. He offered very insightful critique. I really liked his approach. I would absolutely love to take a 1 on 1 lesson with him. I can tell it would be great.
Scott Lee: I spent a good 4 hours or so with Scott 1 on 1. He provided video analysis of my stroke. We went over a bunch of stuff. He helped me pick out a few critical areas to focus on. We really drilled on those areas. We went over some strategies and game situations. I specifically mentioned that I didn't at that time want to deal with "pinning the elbow", that I already had a pretty developed stroke in which I drop my elbow. He was fine with that and we moved on to other things. He told me what he thinks, and that making that change might help me, but he didn't beat on the issue. Instead, we focused on other areas that needed work. Overall this was one of the best pool lessons I've ever had. Scott was a good listener, and a good communicator. The very next day I went and won a big 8 ball tourney that more than paid for my lesson!
Pool School in Florida, which involved 4 hours with each of the following instructors in groups of 5 people:
Francisco Bustamante: totally loved him. His english wasn't great, but he was amazingly adept at communicating the physical feelings of shots. We worked on the break, and a variety of things. The number one thing I took from him was the ability to use my grip hand to do things to my stroke. The way to manipulate the grip to produce power, or reduce power. Amazingly useful for the break and stroke shots. He was great.
Efren Reyes: Efren was also awesome. He talked about some great strategic principles. Like how to maximize your odds playing position, how to choose which side of the ball to play on, and how to do a whole bunch of awesome specialty shots. We watched in awe as he kicked 3 rails behind a ball, kicked the ball out and just stuck the cuball up against the back of the interfering ball...and again. And again. And about 10 times in a row. It was insane. Very good info, amazing experience. He said I did a really good kill shot haha.
Thorsten Hohmann: To be fair, Thorsten was sick as a dog this weekend. He was a total trooper though, and powered through the classes. He focused on training. He talked about various drills and how to build a strong game through repetition and precision. It was a perfect counterpart to someone like Bustamante, who was much more feel oriented. I would love to take a one on one lesson with Thorsten.
Tony Robles: Tony was a very good communicator. We went over a variety of things, and talked as a group through some runouts. I think I would like to spend one on one time with him too.
(So those were the 4 guys at the pool school)
Other lessons:
Joe Tucker: I've known Joe for 15 years. He is a great guy, a very intelligent guy, and LOVES pool. Joe has a bit of a different approach to the game. One thing that really sold me on him was he put out a short video many years ago talking about english. He pointed out how conventional instructors advocated staying close to the vertical axis of the cue ball and later in your pool life venturing out into the english zone. Joe believes this is fundamentally wrong. He recognizes the reality that pro players use english on almost every shot. Joe's attitude is that when you are new to the game, you really don't know what is hard or easy, so that is the time to immediately acquaint yourself with english and how it works. His idea is that if you learn it from the get go, you will be able to use that childlike automatic intuition to learn it more easily, and I totally agree. So I spent time with Joe shooting balls in with loads of english, and learning strategies of how to aim effectively. Also, we went over all kinds of position shots, using english off the rail, etc. It was great. When I teach people how to play pool, my style is probably closest to Joe's, in that we seem to both see the role of the instructor as a *collaborator*. We work together to get to the place we are trying to get to. Joe is very open to the individual nuances that define us as people and players, and rather than fight against this, he helps the student integrate new techniques into their existing style, and preserves the uniqueness of each person's game. I love Joe's approach. It is a downright sin that I have this guy like 70 miles from my house and haven't taken more lessons with him.
Earl Strickland: Yeah, I said Earl twice. This is because much more recently, a close friend of mine and I took about 6 hours of lessons from Earl. I must say, this was probably the best lessons I've *ever* had. Earl is an amazingly attentive instructor. He paid attention to the tiniest details of all parts of our mechanics. He was incredibly picky about our bridges. He is totally nuts about the bridge, and thinks it is one of the most important things. He gave us both some fundamental instruction (bridge, arm placement, stance, stroke delivery). He also walked us through runouts. He would sometimes place balls for a 9 ball run out. He put the balls in such a way that the run would feature a variety of important position shots. What I found very impressive is that there is a pretty considerable gap in ability between me and my friend. At this time, I was an A player and she was a C player. Yet oddly you couldn't even tell, because Earl somehow made that difference vanish. We both seemed to get what we individually needed at each step of the way seemlessly. Earl paid such careful attention to everything we did. It really made us feel like he was making a serious investment in us...that how well we did *mattered* to him. Earl *really* knows his S#@T when it comes to pool. His hourly rate was extremely reasonable...no more than any of the other top instructors. And I mean...its Earl!! Multi time world champion, one of the greatest players ever Earl. You can't beat that. I would recommend without hesitation to take lessons with Earl. He was extremely helpful. I will be going back for sure!!
Anyway, sorry if I forgot anyone. Hope this list is helpful to anyone considering any of these individuals.
KMRUNOUT
Ron Tocci: old school straight pool player from Nashua, NH. High run over 150. Basically taught right out of Phil Cappelle's books. However, added his own extremely helpful imagery for a variety of things like keeping my hand straight, how the hit should feel, strategic decisions in 8 and 9 ball. I probably took about 6 1-2 hr private lessons with him around the time that I was an APA 5. I found it extremely helpful.
Earl Strickland: Spent about 2 hours alone with him. I specifically asked to go over kicking and safeties. He spent about 1/2 hour having me do a few shots to see how I shoot and how I can spin the ball. Then we did exactly what I wanted...went over kicking and safes. For about an hour after, he would play safe and I would have to kick, then I would play safe and he would have to kick. All the while he was advising me. I would say overall this was one of the better lessons I've had.
Randy Goetlicher: This was a group thing with another PBIA instructor. Randy was sort of the guest instructor. However, I VERY much liked Randy's style. He did not try to force any particular methods on me. He offered very insightful critique. I really liked his approach. I would absolutely love to take a 1 on 1 lesson with him. I can tell it would be great.
Scott Lee: I spent a good 4 hours or so with Scott 1 on 1. He provided video analysis of my stroke. We went over a bunch of stuff. He helped me pick out a few critical areas to focus on. We really drilled on those areas. We went over some strategies and game situations. I specifically mentioned that I didn't at that time want to deal with "pinning the elbow", that I already had a pretty developed stroke in which I drop my elbow. He was fine with that and we moved on to other things. He told me what he thinks, and that making that change might help me, but he didn't beat on the issue. Instead, we focused on other areas that needed work. Overall this was one of the best pool lessons I've ever had. Scott was a good listener, and a good communicator. The very next day I went and won a big 8 ball tourney that more than paid for my lesson!
Pool School in Florida, which involved 4 hours with each of the following instructors in groups of 5 people:
Francisco Bustamante: totally loved him. His english wasn't great, but he was amazingly adept at communicating the physical feelings of shots. We worked on the break, and a variety of things. The number one thing I took from him was the ability to use my grip hand to do things to my stroke. The way to manipulate the grip to produce power, or reduce power. Amazingly useful for the break and stroke shots. He was great.
Efren Reyes: Efren was also awesome. He talked about some great strategic principles. Like how to maximize your odds playing position, how to choose which side of the ball to play on, and how to do a whole bunch of awesome specialty shots. We watched in awe as he kicked 3 rails behind a ball, kicked the ball out and just stuck the cuball up against the back of the interfering ball...and again. And again. And about 10 times in a row. It was insane. Very good info, amazing experience. He said I did a really good kill shot haha.
Thorsten Hohmann: To be fair, Thorsten was sick as a dog this weekend. He was a total trooper though, and powered through the classes. He focused on training. He talked about various drills and how to build a strong game through repetition and precision. It was a perfect counterpart to someone like Bustamante, who was much more feel oriented. I would love to take a one on one lesson with Thorsten.
Tony Robles: Tony was a very good communicator. We went over a variety of things, and talked as a group through some runouts. I think I would like to spend one on one time with him too.
(So those were the 4 guys at the pool school)
Other lessons:
Joe Tucker: I've known Joe for 15 years. He is a great guy, a very intelligent guy, and LOVES pool. Joe has a bit of a different approach to the game. One thing that really sold me on him was he put out a short video many years ago talking about english. He pointed out how conventional instructors advocated staying close to the vertical axis of the cue ball and later in your pool life venturing out into the english zone. Joe believes this is fundamentally wrong. He recognizes the reality that pro players use english on almost every shot. Joe's attitude is that when you are new to the game, you really don't know what is hard or easy, so that is the time to immediately acquaint yourself with english and how it works. His idea is that if you learn it from the get go, you will be able to use that childlike automatic intuition to learn it more easily, and I totally agree. So I spent time with Joe shooting balls in with loads of english, and learning strategies of how to aim effectively. Also, we went over all kinds of position shots, using english off the rail, etc. It was great. When I teach people how to play pool, my style is probably closest to Joe's, in that we seem to both see the role of the instructor as a *collaborator*. We work together to get to the place we are trying to get to. Joe is very open to the individual nuances that define us as people and players, and rather than fight against this, he helps the student integrate new techniques into their existing style, and preserves the uniqueness of each person's game. I love Joe's approach. It is a downright sin that I have this guy like 70 miles from my house and haven't taken more lessons with him.
Earl Strickland: Yeah, I said Earl twice. This is because much more recently, a close friend of mine and I took about 6 hours of lessons from Earl. I must say, this was probably the best lessons I've *ever* had. Earl is an amazingly attentive instructor. He paid attention to the tiniest details of all parts of our mechanics. He was incredibly picky about our bridges. He is totally nuts about the bridge, and thinks it is one of the most important things. He gave us both some fundamental instruction (bridge, arm placement, stance, stroke delivery). He also walked us through runouts. He would sometimes place balls for a 9 ball run out. He put the balls in such a way that the run would feature a variety of important position shots. What I found very impressive is that there is a pretty considerable gap in ability between me and my friend. At this time, I was an A player and she was a C player. Yet oddly you couldn't even tell, because Earl somehow made that difference vanish. We both seemed to get what we individually needed at each step of the way seemlessly. Earl paid such careful attention to everything we did. It really made us feel like he was making a serious investment in us...that how well we did *mattered* to him. Earl *really* knows his S#@T when it comes to pool. His hourly rate was extremely reasonable...no more than any of the other top instructors. And I mean...its Earl!! Multi time world champion, one of the greatest players ever Earl. You can't beat that. I would recommend without hesitation to take lessons with Earl. He was extremely helpful. I will be going back for sure!!
Anyway, sorry if I forgot anyone. Hope this list is helpful to anyone considering any of these individuals.
KMRUNOUT
John, if I can ever make it happen, I would *love* to take a lesson with you. Guess what I want to go over?
Lol...some day.
KMRUNOUT
After your wall of text, you finally admitted that CJ calls it the TOI System. Just like the link I provided which you failed to acknowledge in your rambling discorse.
He doesn't call or market it as TOI Method. If you are going to be his shill, at least get the name right.
That is my point.
As far as it being a cookie cutter method,CJ stated with the TOI system, you hit every ball the same way, with no spin, with a TOI and a firm stroke to float the CB to the intended target.
Hitting every ball the same sure does sound cookie cutter to me.
He doesn't call or market it as TOI Method. If you are going to be his shill, at least get the name right.
That is my point.
As far as it being a cookie cutter method,CJ stated with the TOI system, you hit every ball the same way, with no spin, with a TOI and a firm stroke to float the CB to the intended target.
Hitting every ball the same sure does sound cookie cutter to me.
Are there some instructors with pieces of paper that are pretenders and can't teach?
YOU BETCHA!
Are there some elite players with many measures of success that can't teach?
YOU BETCHA!
Stan Shuffett
YOU BETCHA!
Are there some elite players with many measures of success that can't teach?
YOU BETCHA!
Stan Shuffett
Saw a post about "hitting on the basics". Of course, most every instructor named in this thread, yours truly included, would hit on the basics. You have no idea how many APA 6's, 7's and higher aim to the wrong part of the pocket on many shots! Basic aim, stance and stroke have to be in any instructor's arsenal.
Mention this thread for a discounted lesson with me. "You've had all the rest, now try the best." (Hey, I like pizza a lot, what can I say!)
Mention this thread for a discounted lesson with me. "You've had all the rest, now try the best." (Hey, I like pizza a lot, what can I say!)
I haven't read through all eight of the pages on this post but I thought I'd mention this. If its already been mentioned I apologize.
But a few years ago there was an article in one of the Billiard magazines, not sure if it was Pool & Billiard or Billiards Digest, on who the top instructors in America were. And none - not one - of those always talked about on here made the list.
Just my $.02.
r/DCP
But a few years ago there was an article in one of the Billiard magazines, not sure if it was Pool & Billiard or Billiards Digest, on who the top instructors in America were. And none - not one - of those always talked about on here made the list.
Just my $.02.
r/DCP
My 2 cents worth, The listings you allude to were largely based on instructors that filled out and turned in survey papers and......some magazine listings that put their own writers in the upper rankings.
Stan Shuffett
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Rick...Your "dumbass" quotient is showing. Randy Goettlicher was the FIRST Master Instructor. Fran came long after.
There are different levels of certified instructors because more knowledge equates to higher level instruction (most of the time). Sadly there are a few Master Instructors who cannot play and cannot teach well...certainly none of the instructors Randy or I have certified fall into this catagory.
Smoothstroke learned what he knows from Randyg. That should tell you something...
Once again, you show that you have a closed mind, and cannot nor will not open it even a little, so that you might be able to learn somthing new. BTW, good job hogging the thread. You've got 40 out of 99 posts in this thread! Egads!
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Regarding the part that I enlarged, etc.
I sent SmoothStroke a PM last night asking if what was said by Mr. Lee regarding him was true.
I received a reply from him stating that he has never met RandyG nor has he ever had any conversation with him.
He went on to say that his is a completely different approach to teaching than the former BCA & current PBIA.
That would support what I said about him having the type of insights that I do not see from many others.
We all make mistakes but this is not the first time that Mr. Lee has made definitive statements in posts associated with me that were extremely inaccurate.
SmoothStroke said that he will try to make a post here sometime today but that he is very busy & only stumbled upon my PM when he came on regarding a cue for sale.
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Apparently we're not talking about the same thing. Perhaps we do agree.
Can you elaborate on exactly what you are talking about.
I'm not talking about winning local tournaments or even someone that has gone through say a foreign 'billiards college' that is winning.
Naturally if one spends the time in the right environment they will learn & get to play well.
Who would you say is the current Mosconi, Efren, Earl, Miz, Sigel, Varner, Buddy, Wiley, etc, of today that is the product of only structured instruction that has not picked up attributes or 'tricks of the trade' from other sources outside of the 'billiards college'?
My point is that I do not think there is a 'know it all' 'teach it all' in any one location. Yes there are places where one can get a very good foundation & perhaps even more, but can it be all encompassing? Will an individual that goes through one of those 'billiard colleges' come out with a good foundation & perhaps more? Yes. Is there a 'kid' somewhere devoting his life to pool that can compete & beat that individual? Probably so, but the game is such that it is not is a state that would bring that individual out to the forefront. Earl knew he wanted to be a pool player when he 16 & he spent a solid year on the pool table for 16 hours a day... every day. Will there ever be another Earl (or CJ Wiley)? I don't know because of the state of the game & the camera phone & the internet.
Anyway, I am NOT putting down billiards colleges or structured learning. I am just not exalting them to the point of being the Holy Grail. We are individuals & the game is of 2 individuals playing it competitively. As in many things in 'life' & time there is usually an ebb & flow where different aspect rise to the top & then fall back down while something else rises to the top.
There are rather many very good, even great snooker players. But do any of them have the 'magic' of Alex Higgins?
Best Wishes,
Rick
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:thumbup2::thumbup2::thumbup2:
Very good post & members & visitors considering lessons should be appreciative of your effort here.