I thought you didn't gamble.
Which Variable Is the Cause of Most Missed Shots
- Thread starter ChrisinNC
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WobblyStroke
Well-known member
Thats just what he tells state champs like u
I said I hardly ever gamble. Sometimes I can't resist...Like the time in Knoxville when I played Hennessee and his road partner on their way to the Johnny Archer Classic. and the times I played Jamie Farrel in LA, and Tinman in Twin cities. etc...
Most times I prefer to just play, but sometimes, I'll.....PLAY....
Jaden
Come out of retirement and bust all these guys in Phoenix! Way easier action than all of the guys you mentioned!
Let me clarify my stance on this because it may not be clear. To understand the game at a higher level you have to know how to impart spin and understand what it does. To play at the highest levels, you do have to be confident that you can consistently use side spin. You also have to, more importantly, know when side spin becomes the right shot and not OVER use it; however, you do NOT need it to play rotation games at a high level and in response to who I was originally responding to when I made the statement, it unequivocally can help your game to minimize spin and establish fundamental stroke and speed control.
That is all that I was saying. Now I'm going to try and go to sleep now.
Jaden
That is all that I was saying. Now I'm going to try and go to sleep now.
Jaden
Not in retirement. As I said, I prefer to just play play. I'll gamble when I have to in order to play the games I want. I have played Scott a couple of times here in Phoenix(tenball and one hole) and if you'd like to play sometime, just say so. I'd probably be willing to.
When I DO gamble, I don't play for big money though, just be aware. one or two $50 or $100 sets is about my limit.Also, I lost the sets against Tinman, went one and one in nineball and tenball against Jamie and 2 for 3 against Hennessee's road partner and him.
In fact the two $50 sets I lost to Tinman, was the $100 I was up from Hennessee and his road partner...lol. I used to travel a lot for work and I went from Knoxville, to Fargo, to the Twin Cities on that trip. Didn't really play anyone in Fargo. Got food poisoning eating tuna next to a pool hall there.
Jaden
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I'm out there all the time. Been playing a lot more lately. Right now, there are loads of people in your fargo range that play $20 sets and up to $1000's. So many high dollar tournaments also where there is a ton of money to be made. They just had the 626 and under $2,000 buy in 10-ball tournament at Dozers. Small field and winner took down $10k! I understand the "play for play" thing, but if you gamble with all the guys you mention, you'd be stealing.Not in retirement. As I said, I prefer to just play play. I'll gamble when I have to in order to play the games I want. I have played Scott a couple of times here in Phoenix(tenball and one hole) and if you'd like to play sometime, just say so. I'd probably be willing to.
Jaden
This aligns with my thoughts. I prefer to think of it as influence rather than spin. Spin makes me think of a spinning top.
My position is that beginners enjoy extreme spin and become infatuated with taking it to the limits. It's flashy and fun When it works. One of my favorite observations came watching a C player giving a beginner his First lesson. He was teaching a masse. Shrug!!!!°
Center axis is so vanilla. It does help get deeper into the pockets of the prey is what I say. They say, "he ain't That Good, he hasn't made a hard shot all day!"
My plan always starts center. Then if the situation says just a touch of, it's judiciously applied. When backed up against a wall, I can spin my ball. However the Hanging Curve is not an everyday call.
Keep it simple silly.
Once upon a time, in Chico, I had a person decline my invitation to a 2 dollar game with, "I don't gamble." I was cordial and left only to return an hour later to see him playing my wife for $10 a game! My exclamation was, "OH I see, you don't gamble but you will steal!!"
OK my bull analogy would go like this:
Youngster: Let's go smash and grab that place.
Okay well that's kinda where the analogy breaks down....but think of Night Shift.
So anyway the old pro says, "wait a minute bro. We can deftly pick the pockets of just a little each time.....I think it's like giving cheap lessons...it's not a crime.....ta dump. Oh well I didn't quit my day job. I just retired. Wink
Youngster: Let's go smash and grab that place.
Okay well that's kinda where the analogy breaks down....but think of Night Shift.
What he just offered isn't gambling. Then again, I don't gamble either and when I think it was the same guy said he would bet, I offered him anything from one hundred to five hundred. I wasn't gambling either. Been a long time since I have seen a guy so wrong and so confident in his beliefs, at least until time for wallets to come out.
I don't buy pool cues. When a thousand dollar plus cue is offered for a hundred dollars though... If this guy is willing to play with that spot I will take all that I can cover that Jason doesn't want. I wouldn't say I was gambling though, more providing an education.
Hu
A few years back I was watching video of a recent world class event. A player misjudged the ball's path with spin twice in separate games. Cost him the games, the match too I believe. If Shane hasn't got past that rough patch yet, I have to question who has.
I often use fairly extreme spin once a game, to roll in behind the money ball for a tap in causing the balls to be raked. I don't need to do that, but I can. With an empty table it is a fine time to calibrate spin. I can get to essentially the same place using speed and angles on that empty table, whichever I am in the mood.
Using spin, even extreme spin, on an empty table is low risk. Using extreme spin on a crowded table gets even the best players in trouble. That is why speed and angle should be the first option.
Using speed and angles is why a significant other of the person I was playing many times came up to me after a match. "That wasn't fair, you got all of the easy shots!" "Yes ma'am, it goes that way sometimes." My goal for years was to not have to shoot anything over thirty inches, twenty preferred. Most shots I reached my goal and there just aren't many hard shots inside thirty inches.
Hu
Yeah, I was going to leave that it wasn't gambling unsaid. I don't mind playing for money, some people will only play for money. I don't like stealing though. I rarely play for money against players below me unless it's to make a point. It's not about getting money for me. Another thing is that even though I'm robust, my fargo is not accurate. It's WAY lower than it should be or would be if I was playing and competing regularly all the time.
That's evident by the wins that I have that according to Fargo rate I would have a better chance of winning the lottery. Fargo started after I wasn't really playing any more. I never ask for weight against anyone. I knew what Hennessee and his road partner were doing when they first came in the room. I ended up getting the 7 from the road partner and they played the bait and switch of "play my friend even, he's not as good as me"/referring to Hennessee. I went one and one set playing even with him.
I wrote to Donny Mills and asked him if he'd like to match up based on my fargo once I was established (we used to play regularly), his response was "F$#G NO!!!".
I had many hill hills and wins against players on the West State Mezz tour where the spots didn't come into play. I had mental game issues even then that kept me from competing at my skill level. I'm still working through those. I'd be practicing having 3 packs of tenball regularly and then compete and sometimes have trouble running out a single rack. That's one of the reasons I avoid gambling. I never know which version is going to show up.
The version of me that beat Edgie Geronimo 7-5 or the version that loses to a B player 6-9 missing nothing but 9 balls.
You've played me and have an idea of how I can play and many people across the country do also. I've met and played many AZers. It gets frustrating to know that I can play at a super high level but to not be able to rely on that in competition.
Even when playing on the Mezz tour I was not practicing like I did before that and they didn't start recording for Fargo until after I left. Although competing on the tour was starting to get me past my mental hangups. I sometimes wonder how things might have been different when I played on the tour had I been practicing like I did before that, during the time I was competing then. Even without the practice, I finished 12th overall the two years I was a sponsored player on the tour. Those mental hangups are a long story that I'm not going to get into here right now.
There have been times when I practiced like I used to and when I do, I can still play the same way. I'm working on getting to a place where I can practice and compete on the larger stage regularly at the same time to try and get past those hangups while I'm playing the game I'm capable of.
We'll see what happens.
I'm hoping that the regular practice and competing on the larger stage will give me the answer to that question. Regardless, I will probably never gamble on a larger scale, it just doesn't interest me.
Jaden
p.s. It's kind of funny, I had walked away from the forums for several years and Sev asked me to come back because, I forgot who(edit: It was Chris Tate/Palmer Collector), but someone in NPR was claiming to be the best player that posts there. He was offering to match up with anyone in NPR and backed down when I offered. We had matched up on the mezz tour before. I didn't post all of the above to brag or really, I don't know why I did. I kept saying to myself, just delete it, it doesn't matter. But no, one thing I definitely know from my decades of pool experience is that the best way to hustle people, is to tell them exactly how good you are, because they won't believe you(if you're good enough). Especially if you don't gamble much or often. I don't know that anyone could really call that a hustle but, whatever. So it doesn't matter. Post it or not. People will think what they think, those that know will know.
One thing there's no shortage of in the pool world is ego driven opinions so while it bothers me, it doesn't REALLY bother me, ya know? I've got my plaques and trophies (metaphorically and physically).
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For me it goes deeper. My best performances have come when I felt good about what I was doing in life.
My morning fitness program reflects on a smaller scale. Since it is a fitness program I allow my mind to wander at times when I am getting the reps in. Good thoughts have a way of leading to good results. Allowing my auto pilot control of the routine makes getting and keeping my mind right job 1.My one good performance on the big stage was proof that it was the right thing for me to quit that job. It also showed me that "a chip and a chair" is Still in the game. Shrug
Yeah, that's been what I've noticed for me as well. I stopped playing when I was going through a divorce but then we were able to reconcile. I'm working on getting to a better place in life so that I can focus properly on the table. Getting back in shape will be one of my steps.For me it goes deeper. My best performances have come when I felt good about what I was doing in life.
My one good performance on the big stage was proof that it was the right thing for me to quit that job. It also showed me that "a chip and a chair" is Still in the game. Shrug
I played my best when I was in my best physical shape.
Thanks,
Jaden
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WobblyStroke
Well-known member
Not quite the rough patch people go through as they first start using spin
. Misjudging shots happens, even at the highest level, even if you are shooting the highest percentage shot. A couple misses in a match doesn't say anything about the inferiority or superiority of his approach to those shots. What's the idea here? "He missed 2 shots so he shouldn't shoot them that way"? Cuz it'll be just as easy to wait for two misses done the other way. The misses are coming eventually whether the player is a spinner or not. The fact remains that many shots are just simpler and more predictable with spin. They are higher percentage shots... which doesn't mean you won't miss any of them or even a whopping 2 in a match like SVB.
Not quite the rough patch people go through as they first start using spin
The choice was between draw three or four rails in traffic or follow one rail with no traffic and no side needed. Both times Shane chose draw in heavy traffic. I suspect he would be the first to say he made some bad choices if he reviewed the video.
People get into the habit of using draw and don't consider other options. Both of these shots failed because the traffic lane was too narrow for the shot. That match is an unusual example I am sure but I would cheerfully line up the top sixteen in the world if I could and bet all of them including Shane would be more successful with the follow shot. Apparently he didn't take time to consider follow which faced zero traffic and simpler position.
Everybody misses, and everybody misses less when they simplify their game.
Hu
WobblyStroke
Well-known member
That detail was missing in ur initial description of misjudged spin. I'm def in agreement with you that simplifying things is best. My contention is, that in some cases, like the ones I mentioned in my original post, spin simplifies the shot and makes things easier.
Can't put every detail in every post. You will never find me disagreeing with spin being used sometimes. It just reached the point of overuse to the point it was costing people. Seems like playing styles might be changing slightly in the last couple of years. I see Filler in particular using more follow. No question he can use spin better than most, he chooses not to fairly often.
Hu
BlueRaider
Registered
Lack of focus.
Either not being experienced enough to know how to truly focus on making a shot or being preoccupied with something else (winning the game/match, a desire to not look unskilled or clumsy, fear of missing, ruminating on the conversation you're having with your opponent or overhearing at the table next to you, etc.).
Of course, it's possible to miss a shot when you're very focused on it because it's simply a low percentage shot for your given skill level. But I think lack of focus is why most people miss most shots that they would otherwise make at a very high percentage.
Either not being experienced enough to know how to truly focus on making a shot or being preoccupied with something else (winning the game/match, a desire to not look unskilled or clumsy, fear of missing, ruminating on the conversation you're having with your opponent or overhearing at the table next to you, etc.).
Of course, it's possible to miss a shot when you're very focused on it because it's simply a low percentage shot for your given skill level. But I think lack of focus is why most people miss most shots that they would otherwise make at a very high percentage.