Whiteball - damage?

[genesis]

Hello guys,

i hope i am in the right section:

first of all i paste a letter sent to saluc 3 times without response:

------------------
3rd Hello,


I am a pool player from germany and i own some sets of Aramith balls.
So i own a TV CUP PRO Cueball. I break with a all in one / phenolic tip.
After some breaks, the cueball gets a "halfmoon dent". It _really_ damages the Whiteball.

So i have some questions.

1. Have you researched that problem? Resolves?
2. You manufacture the brunswick Centennial balls ?
2.a (There) is the Dent problem more distinctive?
2.b Are there limitations to use Centennial balls in a mechanic ball
cleaner (special coat?)

Thank you for answering my questions.

Add: Some Photos of different Cueballs with dents

Also available at the web:

Brunswick
http://83.236.206.179/privat/Pool/BrunswickWhite1.jpg
http://83.236.206.179/privat/Pool/BrunswickWhite2.jpg
http://83.236.206.179/privat/Pool/BrunswickWhite3.jpg

Aramith TV
http://83.236.206.179/privat/Pool/AramithTVWhite1.jpg
http://83.236.206.179/privat/Pool/AramithTVWhite2.jpg
http://83.236.206.179/privat/Pool/AramithTVWhite3.jpg
http://83.236.206.179/privat/Pool/AramithTVWhite4.jpg


regards
--------------------

Other facts:
absolutely sure that no nails(pockets) are involved.
With cheap ballsets, there are no marks detectable.


So what do you think about that issue?
For me it is kind of a big affair. You can "kill" your whiteball with normal usage.

regards
Mike

 

[Craig Fales]

They look like cracks to me. I seen it before however my measles ball never developed those. IMO they never seemed to effect play.

 

[genesis]

They look like cracks to me. I seen it before however my measles ball never developed those. IMO they never seemed to effect play.

Oh yes they will.
1. Bad Contacts.
2. "Wobbeling" on very low speeds.

The marks are feelable, so the balls are damaged ;-(

 

[jjr183]

I have been told that this is due to using a break cue with a tip that is harder than the ball itself. Eventually the cue ball is going to fracture due to the impact. This seems to be true as I had cracks all over my measle ball when I played rack games (8, 9, 10-ball). Now I have a new ball that I have only used for 14.1 and one pocket for about the same amount of play time that doesn't have any marks on it at all.

 

[Craig Fales]

Oh yes they will.
1. Bad Contacts.
2. "Wobbeling" on very low speeds.

The marks are feelable, so the balls are damaged ;-(

Ok, I'm going on my personal findings. I've used my nail to try and feel for anything and never felt something when I did.

 

[Paul Dayton]

There are two problems. The first is the small cracks which shouldn't happen but which probably will never get worse. These happened during play and I would blame the phenolic break shots.

The second problem with the Aramith balls is a separation of the top clear layer from the inner white core. I would have to bet that this is a manufacturing error and not something that happened later. If I were the manufacturer, I would replace these balls. They should never have been shipped.

 

[Icon of Sin]

I haver a measles ball and have dented/cracked mine. I haven't noticed it effect play really though.

 

[Paul Dayton]

On second thought, the phenolic break is probably causing this separation.

 

[genesis]

The phenolic Tip is 100% the source.

when i used the brandnew centennial whiteball, i place the spot on the cueball exact where i break from. after each break i checked the ball.
After one break, i did not hit the cueball 100% maybe 65% (but not a geek) i make a dent. And there is nothing special on my gulyassy

I bet you feel a difference when you use a old fractured ball and a brand new out of the box. well

 

[genesis]

No other opinions?

 

[Bob Jewett]

No other opinions?

Yes. Phenolic tips are illegal and the ban should be enforced.

 

[Jerry Forsyth]

Phenolic tips illegal

Bob,

I have always wondered why no tournament has ever said no to phenolic tips. The rules clearly state that tips must be made of leather. (I think. I do not have the brand new rule book as yet.)

Yet at least one manufacturer of these cues states that his cue is approved by the BCA. Others tell me that since the TD is allowed to alter rules as he sees fit that they will use the phenolic until TD's stop allowing them to do so. I know some of the phenolic tips claim to have shreds of leather in them and they think this gets them around the rule.

I used to think that rules were rules. Then the tapped ball racks came along and the rules (rack the one ball on the head spot) showed themselves to be very weak. Even WPA -sanctioned events began racking the nine ball on the foot spot. So it appears that the rules are just suggestions.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... I have always wondered why no tournament has ever said no to phenolic tips. The rules clearly state that tips must be made of leather. ...

The rule (equipment specification, actually) was written wrong. It should have set a particular maximum hardness. I suppose whoever wrote the specification either was trying to let the phenolic tip people still sell their product or didn't understand what he was doing.

I believe that the IPT did not allow phenolic tips in their tournaments.

If in fact the OP is correct and phenolic tips on break sticks damage the cue ball, it is time to revise the equipment specifications and enforce them.

As for rules being malleable, it is important to distinguish between the rules and the regulations (and the equipment specifications). I think that the particular case of tapped racks is not a real deviation from the rules. The rules/regulations intend that all the balls should be touching in the rack. Tapping is the best way known to ensure that quickly and repeatably.

So far as I know, the nine ball was never racked on the spot in an official championship competition.

 

[genesis]

Someone has a good wire to saluc?

This is very important to me ...

 

[memikey]

Bob,

I have always wondered why no tournament has ever said no to phenolic tips......

Jerry, the IPT definitely banned phenolic tips and followed through strictly on that ban including the deducting of frames from a couple of players who were discovered to be using them.

 

[genesis]

i got reply.

The salesman"" who can answer my questions, is on a business tour. Coming back at the end of april...

 

[genesis]

Hello Community, i added some correspondence to keep you informed. Build your own opinion.

27.03.2008 SENT TO SALUC EMAIL
31.03.2008 SENT TO SALUC EMAIL
03.04.2008 SENT TO SALUC EMAIL
09.04.2008 SENT TO SALUC EMAIL plus Form over Webite
Hello,
I am a pool player in germany and i own some sets of Aramith balls.
So i own a TV CUP PRO Cueball. I break with a a ll in one / phenolic tip.
After some breaks, the cueball gets a "halfmoon dent". It _really_ damages the Whiteball.
So i have some questions.
1. Have you researched that problem? Resolves?
2. You manufacture the brunswick Centennial balls ?
2.a (There) is the Dent problem more distinctive?
2.b Are there limitations to use Centennial balls in a mechanic ball
cleaner (special coat?)
Thank you for answering my questions.
Also available at the web:
Brunswick
http://83.236.206.179/privat/Pool/BrunswickWhite1.jpg
http://83.236.206.179/privat/Pool/BrunswickWhite2.jpg
http://83.236.206.179/privat/Pool/BrunswickWhite3.jpg
Aramith TV
http://83.236.206.179/privat/Pool/AramithTVWhite1.jpg
http://83.236.206.179/privat/Pool/AramithTVWhite2.jpg
http://83.236.206.179/privat/Pool/AramithTVWhite3.jpg
http://83.236.206.179/privat/Pool/AramithTVWhite4.jpg
regards

09.04.2008 from Saluc
Dear Sir,
We are transferring your e.mail to the person in charnge of the European
market.
He is presently on a business trip abroad. He will answer your request upon
his return to the office, end of April.
Best regards
ARAMITH – BELGIUM


29.04.2008 SENT TO SALUC EMAIL
Hello Ms. XX,
sorry for bothering you, but i am still waiting for a response.
regards

19.05.2008 SENT TO SALUC EMAIL
Dear Sirs and Misses,
this email was sent 6 times over MONTH:
via Email 27.03. via Email 31.03. via Email 03.04. via Email 09.04.
isnt it ridiculous?

20.05.2008 FROM SALUC
Dear Mr XX,
I apologize to be so late in my response.
Your question is not ridiculous at all. But unfortunately, we call this
appearance in our balls as the sign "comma" (,). And those balls have
undergone somehow an evident misuse. There is somewhere in/on the billiard
table a metal piece (a screw or a nail) which hit the ball.
If not, we need the ball to analyze it.
You can send it to me:
XXX ADRESS

20.05.2008 SENT TO SALUC EMAIL
Dear mr. X,
well, be absolutely sure that this marks are ONLY from a phenolic tip.
No misuse possible.That Centennial-whiteball is/was absolutely new.
---------
> > 1. Have you researched that problem? Resolves?
> > 2. You manufacture the brunswick Centennial balls ?
> > 2.a (There) is the Dent problem more distinctive?
> > 2.b Are there limitations to use Centennial balls in a mechanic ball
> > cleaner (special coat?)

Kind regards

30.05.2008 SENT TO SALUC EMAIL
Hello,
So please excuse my Consistency.
After 10 days, also my second mail. Well, Saluc is the biggest Ball Company and not able to answer a few simple questions? What can i do to get (more) answers?

30.05.2008 from Saluc
Dear Mr. XX,
Be absolutely sure that we reproduce the same marks when the ball hit a
metal piece. If not, we need the ball to analyze it. You can send it to me:
ADRESS
What kind of mechanical ball cleaner do you use?
What kind of cleaner product do you use?
Regards, name

30.05.2008 SENT TO SALUC EMAIL
Hello Mr XX,
> Be absolutely sure that we reproduce the same marks when the ball hit a
> metal piece.
I totaly agree ( but the marks are smaller)
I do not use a mechanic ball cleaner.
And a absolutely out of the box breakball has that mark after a break.
I did not hit the whiteball 100% (aprox 90%, but not a bad hit)
Then the Whiteball is marked.
I say: it is absolutely SURE that comes from Phenolic Tips. Those marks are visible around the Planet. So i ask again. please ...
In my opinion it is a scandal that you can damage Balls with "normal" use.
And please believe me, that is coming from the Phenolics.
...
> > > 1. Have you researched that problem? Resolves?
> > > 2. You manufacture the brunswick Centennial balls ?
> > > 2.a (There) is the Dent problem more distinctive?
> > > 2.b Are there limitations to use Centennial balls in a mechanic
cleaner ( it has nothing to do with the "MARKS" Problem)
...

05.06.2008 SENT TO SALUC EMAIL
06.06.2008 SENT TO SALUC EMAIL
11.06.2008 SENT TO SALUC EMAIL
17.06.2008 SENT TO SALUC EMAIL
25.06.2008 SENT TO SALUC EMAIL
30.06.2008 SENT TO SALUC EMAIL

Hello,
So please excuse my Consistency, again and again ;-)After 10 days, also my (1-9) mail. Well, Saluc is the biggest Ball Company and not able to answer a few simple questions?
What can i do to get (more) answers?
--ADDED PREVIOUS MAIL

25. 06. 2008 from Saluc
Mr XX,
You have received an answer some weeks ago.
I'm sorry you seem not happy with.
So what can I do for? ....
So ... I said some weeks ago: send me the ball for analyse in case you do
not think it is a misuse.
I gave you an answer I gave you a possibility to go further in case of
disagreement.
Statically, after reception of balls and analyze, all are normal.
But we cannot say what you have done with it.
But we can reproduce the same defect when we hit the ball against a metal
piece.
Your ball came from a production batch of thousands, all identical; in the
case this batch is bad, Saluc should have got thousands of claims.
Regards,

30.06.2008 SENT TO SALUC EMAIL

Dear Mr. XX,
i said it is 100% not a MISSUSE. And people ALL OVER THE WORLD are recognizing those dents. It is nothing special with that ball. Why? Users around the world report that effect. Ok, i will send you that ball. (Costs more Shipping than a new ball).

Do you manufacture the Brunswick balls to? There is the same effect. And i guess there is a different "coat" than the Aramith-TV-Pro balls.

And also yes, this can come from nails in the pockets, but you could believe me, not in my case. A brand new out of the Box Whiteball, never gone in a pocket, never gone of table, had those dents. So it is ABSOLUTELY sure, that my Phenolic Tip has made those Dents. ( my pockets are screwed with hidden screws)
Well my Tip is normaly rounded, nothin special on my Gulyassy break cue.

May you go to a poolhall where sportsman play (Phenolics) and watch out for the dents in the Whiteball. Cheaper china balls are not vulnerable till now.

In many Internet-forums around the World are many many users on edge to hear your statement.

And i guess, that "Problem" is totaly new to Saluc.

 

[ShootingArts]

seems like a nonissue to me

Seems like a nonissue to me as far as the manufacturer is concerned. Cue balls are damaged on routine impacts, all balls are. Since the cue ball receives the most impacts it is damaged the most. When you start hitting the cue ball with the edges of a surface that is as hard or harder than it is the pressure per square inch goes up tremendously. Greater damage isn't surprising and is no indication of a defective cueball.

For balls to play properly they have a certain amount of give and spring back. Making a harder ball will affect play and until and unless we play with a cue ball that is quite a bit harder than all tips we will be able to damage cue balls. The solution seems to be to change the tip not the cue ball. We can return to true all leather tips or we can damage cue balls with super hard tips. The choice is ours.

Hu

 

[genesis]

SA You were right. But to damage a ball with official Equipment is prohibitive. You Agree?

Make Special Phenolic resistent Balls or
Bann phenolics at all time.

 

[ShootingArts]

I agree

SA You were right. But to damage a ball with official Equipment is prohibitive. You Agree?

Make Special Phenolic resistent Balls or
Bann phenolics at all time.

I agree if I understand you correctly. We shouldn't be able to routinely damage cue balls with legal tips.

Hu