Who wants to see CJ on TAR?

[JCIN]

John - in the WSOP, and all poker tourneys, they take out money. It is by shear number of contestants buying essentially a lottery ticket that the prize pools get so great.

In the 2008 ring game. I could have staked Justin but like a dumb jockey I switched horses and staked Jesse. I think most players were staked. I paid for Jesse hotel room, entry fee and staked him afterwards when he didn't cash in the ring game to play Joey Gray one pocket - a game Jesse is definitely not the favorite in. The next 4 times I saw Jesse he didn't even acknowledge I was in the room with him, let alone say hello or even look in my direction. I guess like CJ and many a pool player, he knows how to burn bridges. (On my IPad or I would insert a burning bridge pic here).

I got even for the weekend though. I also had 15% of Shane McMinn entry and emptied out what I had left in my pockets on Justin to beat Shane in the race to 21 finals.

Do you remember the entry in 2008? Was it $3000 like the first year? For some reason I thought Dan lowered it the second year. Obviously my memory on some details from back then is hazy but since you paid the money I figure you will remember.

Hope you are feeling better sir.

 

[vapoolplayer]

I agree and disagree.

Pool HAS a huge field of players already playing the game who could fund a pro tour that they could earn their way into. Make it so that every league player who wins their division gets a pro-card and you will have thousands trying each year.

Take $1 per week from each league player and you have enough money to fund and run a pro tour with great payouts.

A lot of those poker entries come from smaller tournaments or a tournament series where the first prize was the entry into the main event.

Pool COULD be doing this now but we collectively have our heads so far up our asses that simply refuse to cooperate to make the game bigger. Put it on tv and give the amateurs a way to compete with the pros and watch what happens. Pipe Dream though - will never happen.

I think this could work to a certain point, but it is limited.

You're always going to have poker players throwing away thousands because of the luck(actually variance, but meh, semantics) involved.

You're not going to find bar bangers putting up thousands in entry fees for pool as they know they don't have a chance.

As far as satellites tournaments for pool such as poker, you still are working on that variance/luck factor. Players will put up several hundred up to 1k to play in a satellite for the WSOP, but this is still because they feel they have a chance to win.

In pool, you'd still have to convince the average bar banger/league player he has a chance to win for him/her to put up even the smaller entry fee.

I disagree that you'd have tons of people chasing a pro tour card. They likely attitude would be "what then, I have to play guys like SVB and then what?"

I guess there could be an argument for handicapping pro tournaments so that amateurs would have a better chance.

Pool is too much a game of skill to convince joe public that he has a chance.

I've played over 10k hours of poker in the last 5 years.......I've seen guys who couldn't even begin to tell you even within 10% of the chance they have in a given hand shoving thousands into a pot.

Figure out how to convince novice pool players to do that........and you'll have prize funds like poker.

 

[JB Cases]

I want to say there around 20 some players the year Bergman won it. Dan added $5K that year as well. The tournament was always billed as a 32 man field but it never came close to filling. I think there were 18 the first year that McMinn won.

I am so math challenged.

Where in the world would I get that 53k divides by 3k 49 times? Oh I know because I though 8x3 is 24 x 2 is 48k plus 3 is 51k and wrote 48 players. I really am stupid sometimes.

Ok so with the added money then you're right 16 or more players.

 

[easy-e]

If we burn bridges by refusing to cheat then those bridges don't lead anywhere.

I think he "burned the bridge" by ignoring the guy who gave him a chance to make some money.

 

[JB Cases]

I think this could work to a certain point, but it is limited.

You're always going to have poker players throwing away thousands because of the luck(actually variance, but meh, semantics) involved.

You're not going to find bar bangers putting up thousands in entry fees for pool as they know they don't have a chance.

As far as satellites tournaments for pool such as poker, you still are working on that variance/luck factor. Players will put up several hundred up to 1k to play in a satellite for the WSOP, but this is still because they feel they have a chance to win.

In pool, you'd still have to convince the average bar banger/league player he has a chance to win for him/her to put up even the smaller entry fee.

Pool is too much a game of skill to convince joe public that he has a chance.

I've played over 10k hours of poker in the last 5 years.......I've seen guys who couldn't even begin to tell you even within 10% of the chance they have in a given hand shoving thousands into a pot.

Figure out how to convince novice pool players to do that........and you'll have prize funds like poker.

I think you go the other way and structure it like golf but with one major difference. The amateurs fund the pros so that the pro tour can NEVER go broke. But to get into the pros you have to earn your way in. None of this I am a pro because I say I am nonsense.

 

[vapoolplayer]

I think you go the other way and structure it like golf but with one major difference. The amateurs fund the pros so that the pro tour can NEVER go broke. But to get into the pros you have to earn your way in. None of this I am a pro because I say I am nonsense.

I agree with that. Structure is the first thing that needs to be done. However, people seem to be waiting for separate entities to join forces, which just isn't going to happen.

A single promotion will have to become successful enough to dominate the marketplace. That promotion will ultimately have to be successful enough to have players sign contracts to only play in that promotion.

Sadly, even if said promotion were able to do this......pool players tend to be the type who would never sign on to one promotion.

I don't have the answers on how to do this successfully, but that's how it happened in every other game/sport.

 

[JCIN]

I think this could work to a certain point, but it is limited.

You're always going to have poker players throwing away thousands because of the luck(actually variance, but meh, semantics) involved.

You're not going to find bar bangers putting up thousands in entry fees for pool as they know they don't have a chance.

As far as satellites tournaments for pool such as poker, you still are working on that variance/luck factor. Players will put up several hundred up to 1k to play in a satellite for the WSOP, but this is still because they feel they have a chance to win.

In pool, you'd still have to convince the average bar banger/league player he has a chance to win for him/her to put up even the smaller entry fee.

I disagree that you'd have tons of people chasing a pro tour card. They likely attitude would be "what then, I have to play guys like SVB and then what?"

I guess there could be an argument for handicapping pro tournaments so that amateurs would have a better chance.

Pool is too much a game of skill to convince joe public that he has a chance.

I've played over 10k hours of poker in the last 5 years.......I've seen guys who couldn't even begin to tell you even within 10% of the chance they have in a given hand shoving thousands into a pot.

Figure out how to convince novice pool players to do that........and you'll have prize funds like poker.

I dont keep up with poker anymore. Was there a big change in the dead money after online poker in the US got hammered ?

I agree 100% poker models will not work in pool. Two different things.

 

[watchez]

If we burn bridges by refusing to cheat then those bridges don't lead anywhere.

CJ -- there was one shot at the end that McMinn passed on that was the subject on here. The layout was shown and discussed here ad nausea and Shane made right choice in passing back to the shooter. Believe me, I watched the entire day and there were no questionable moves. Unlike other pool tournaments that I'm sure you support where friends let other friends win so they can garner Mosconi Cup points. Guess that 'problem' is now fixed.

JCIN - entry for second ring game was also $3,000. They did not get the turnout of number of players to enter as they hoped.

This was the year that Kiamco offered Scotty Townsend the 8 on a bar table and Scotty told him to keep his spot and beat him.

 

[JCIN]

I think you go the other way and structure it like golf but with one major difference. The amateurs fund the pros so that the pro tour can NEVER go broke. But to get into the pros you have to earn your way in. None of this I am a pro because I say I am nonsense.

Yet another sign of the coming apocalypse....we agree on this 100%.

Cradle to grave track for players to go from rank amateur to professional. Almost all successful sports have it in one form or another. It would be awesome to have something where a player could walk in with a clear path to being a professional player with milestones and recognized standards along the way.

 

[Counterspell]

It was apparent he was a "Dick," just didn't know which one. Weldon "Jr" Rogers used to talk about him occasionally.

LOL good one CJ

 

[vapoolplayer]

I dont keep up with poker anymore. Was there a big change in the dead money after online poker in the US got hammered ?

I agree 100% poker models will not work in pool. Two different things.

Depends. Tournaments always had dead money regardless of online poker. I'd say tournament poker stayed roughly the same.

Cash games on the other hand......dead money went back up to an all time high IMO. Was similar to when Moneymaker won the WSOP Main Event.

But, as with anything, there are other things which came to the table. You got a lot of the terrible players who couldn't play online, but you also got internet poker geniuses coming to play as well. A lot of live only poker players thought this would be easy money as well, many were not equipped to handle players who had spent countless hours refining the mathematics of poker, since they didn't have much else to go on, being that online poker too out the human aspect a lot.

Poker was already evolving more and more from the older days of Brunson and the like......players were already being forced to learn a much more technical side of the game, online poker ending forced full time live pros to either step up their game or be overrun by the internet players moving to brick and mortar card rooms.

Either way though, poker has always had plenty of dead money, and will continue to do so since there will always be the element of luck on a given day, which allows the not so great players to have their "day in the sun."

 

[SJDinPHX]

Thank you for the respectful reply post. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts. FWIW, I had a strong passion for pool long before I met Keith, and I actually used to play, much to your surprise, I'm sure.

What you wrote here in this thread was not very nice: #5 A very nice lady, who all too frequently, enters (uninvited) into topic's, which were 'old news' when her better half was a teen-ager.

Maybe you were trying to be funny at my expense and Keith's.

I'm going to take the high road with you and apologize for my words that were offensive to you. I was angry when I wrote it.

Adios, Dick.

HEY ! I never mentioned you by name..That was in my "Secret Quiz" :duck:

Anyway, thanks for your gracious reply..Now lets move on, and all have a good St Patty's day ! ....I'm a 'Mick' to ye know !..
(but, I drink every day...Ye never know, could be me last ! )

 

[BeiberLvr]

Structure, Routine, ? Puhleeeeeeze !...It is people like yourself, that keep "aiming system" promoter's alive...Keep grasping at straws !..
I admire SVB for his hard work, and dedication..But I also think he was BORN with a little Efren, Busty, and Orcullo in him.. He would never have made it without that ingredient, even if he practiced 'til his arms fell off, and his eyeballs bled ! (sorry, neither will you !)

Kinda like Babe Ruth, Ronnie Allen, and Keith McCready all of whom rose to the top of their game, on booze and hot dogs..Being as we are talking pool here, I know for a fact, that RA, (and dozen's of his other contemporarie's)..didnt spend over 5-6 hours practicing, in his/their ENTIRE life !...But then he was just an 'average' player, wasn't he ?...Where was HIS 'structure'..

I never said a player didn't need to have some sort of natural talent to be great.

Practicing doesn't just pertain to drills. It could be shooting the same shot over and over again until it's mastered. No player in the history of the game came right out of the gate without ever hitting a ball and played at a championship level.

The only point I was trying to make is that if two players with the same level of natural talent started playing at the same time. The player that hits balls with a purpose will be better than the player that just hits balls.

There's a reason that pool players and athletes in other sports tend to improve throughout their career, and it's not because their natural talent suddenly increases. SVB is a perfect example. He's a much better player today than he was when he first won the US Open in '97. I wonder how that happened. Oh...practice.

 

[BeiberLvr]

I dont keep up with poker anymore. Was there a big change in the dead money after online poker in the US got hammered ?

I don't believe so. Last year's WSOP Main Event was still pretty big. They even had that One Drop tournament that Guy Laliberte put on that had 48 entrants despite the $1,000,000 entry fee. Of course, almost every pro was being backed. I remember reading that Ivey was the only one who put himself in, and he even cross-booked himself. Not sure if that's true or not.

 

[SJDinPHX]

I never said a player didn't need to have some sort of natural talent to be great.
There's a reason that pool players and athletes in other sports tend to improve throughout their career, and it's not because their natural talent suddenly increases. SVB is a perfect example. He's a much better player today than he was when he first won the US Open in '97. I wonder how that happened. Oh...practice.

I will concede, some need it more than others...I could make the case that SVB, could have practiced a LOT less,
and still excelled, as much as he plays anyway.. He just loves the game, its not work to him, its his whole life !

Personally, I know myself, (and RA) would rather have a 'root canal, than practice for over 20 minutes.....
(look how many drinks we could be having..)

 

[BeiberLvr]

I will concede, some need it more than others...I could make the case that SVB, could have practiced a LOT less,
and still excelled, as much as he plays anyway.. He just loves the game, its not work to him, its his whole life !

Personally, I know myself, (and RA) would rather have a 'root canal, than practice for over 20 minutes.....
(look how many drinks we could be having..)

And I could make the case that RA would've been a much better player had he practiced more.

People don't improve or excel at their talents without some sort of outside force, in this case, that force would be practice.

Practice could mean a variety of things: drills, working on fundamentals like stance, alignment, grip, stroke, etc. shooting certain shots over and over. In a nutshell, doing things with a purpose.

 

[George]

Back on topic. I voted no and I mean no disrespect to CJ with my vote, I'll explain. I think current tournament players are the best option for TAR for several reasons, first and foremost they are playing at the highest level and consistency. Secondly these players are the tournament road warriors of today, they need all the support they can get to help keep them on the road. The profitability(or lack of) of being a pro these days has been discussed ad nauseum, it's dismal.
I like the fact that these TAR matches feature the top current players, it's what I personally want to see. I'm not saying there isn't a market for semi retired great players who are no longer active on the tournament trail. From a business standpoint I would say JCIN utilizing a lot of the top players in the game is just plain smart.

 

[Ghosst]

You're not going to find bar bangers putting up thousands in entry fees for pool as they know they don't have a chance.

We had one on this forum who wouldn't even play by standard rules because he knew he couldn't win a game that way. That's the guy you need to appeal to because he's the one with the attitude and lack of knowledge you're targeting for entry fees.

A local player asked last week why there weren't more players in a 9-ball tournament and I said it was that they didn't feel like they had a chance and didn't want to get embarrassed. He said they should just enter and lose like he used to for years and years in order to get better. He seemed mad at my answer, but it's the truth from my point of view. Never forget what it felt like when you were new to this sport and you can understand why beginners feel how they do.

Pool has a steep learning curve, requires time and dedication and great deal of humility. Poker's is quite a bit gentler, and newbies can get lucky on their way up.

In pool, the second there's a sniff at money players will drive hundreds of miles to pick over the scraps. A new player doesn't have a hope and only those of us who really love the game will ever stick with it.

You want more dead money? Hope and pray CSI can create a tour from their Pro Prize Fund, make it pro-only, and keep those pros out of the smaller tournaments.

In our local scene, "B" player tournaments get much bigger turnouts than "open" ones do because there are perhaps 5 different players south of Calgary that will win an open tourney. When you keep those guys out, the tournaments fill up. Whether people "like" that or not is irrelevant.


.

 

[Ghosst]

Sorry for the sidetrack BTW.

I'd like to see CJ on TAR, but, if Justin has mixed feelings about it then I wouldn't push the idea. I was not aware they had a history and knowing now they do, it's better to leave it be.

 

[cleary]

and honestly I was nervous when Earl Stickland sat down and watched every shot. How many players does Earl watch play? Probably just your matches Lou, right? :thumbup:

Earl sat down and watched me play at $50 set on Thursday. He's sat down and watched me play several times. I must be a champion.