IPt
Tap Tap Tap ... Kevin stated he is doing his way, he knows all the eyes
of the Pool world are on him waiting to jump on him at any sign of
impropriety with the tour. He has taken good steps so far, Deno, William
Morris, website, communication, answering questions, so why be the voice
of doom? Just because something can happen doesn't mean it will. Sometimes overly cautiousness can cause you to have an accident. I agree
with above about 'wild west mentality', it is part of what has made this
country great. Would you have had similiar comments about Henry Ford?
The pioneering spirit is a recognized and appreciated greatness about
Americans. It is not uncommon at all, for a rich person, who may have had
a somewhat dubious past, to find a cause later in life that they fully believe
in, support, and work hard for something good, maybe something better than
they have ever done before. I would much rather have someone like Kevin
running the show, than all the beaucratic politicking executives that exist
in other organizations trying to spoonfeed you BS all the time. Maybe, they
should be paid per their accomplishments instead of just being on the payroll,
sort of like poolplayers are paid now.
Tbeaux said:
Tap Tap Tap ... Kevin stated he is doing his way, he knows all the eyes
of the Pool world are on him waiting to jump on him at any sign of
impropriety with the tour. He has taken good steps so far, Deno, William
Morris, website, communication, answering questions, so why be the voice
of doom? Just because something can happen doesn't mean it will. Sometimes overly cautiousness can cause you to have an accident. I agree
with above about 'wild west mentality', it is part of what has made this
country great. Would you have had similiar comments about Henry Ford?
The pioneering spirit is a recognized and appreciated greatness about
Americans. It is not uncommon at all, for a rich person, who may have had
a somewhat dubious past, to find a cause later in life that they fully believe
in, support, and work hard for something good, maybe something better than
they have ever done before. I would much rather have someone like Kevin
running the show, than all the beaucratic politicking executives that exist
in other organizations trying to spoonfeed you BS all the time. Maybe, they
should be paid per their accomplishments instead of just being on the payroll,
sort of like poolplayers are paid now.
Cheers Jaden,Jaden said:
My voice of reason is just a front to garner sympathy. Wait till I get in here with a few beers under my belt.
Tbeaux said:
Half empty? Not really. I agree with you 100%. The wild west mentality I spoke of is the backstabbing that goes on, in no way was I referencing anything the IPT has done. You must understand that the existing organization have never had the money needed to be effective, and when it finally comes around - it tosses them aside as if they do not exist or as if they serve no purpose. Call me crazy, but that's insulting. That is more frustrating than not having the money at all.
To Scott:
There is a big difference between having a great idea and implementing it. Right now, all these figures look really good on paper, but that's not where the battle is. I have an excellent example - All of Ted Turner's money could not bring down Vince McMahon. Turner had billions of dollars and came very close to putting McMahon out of business, but he failed to properly market his product or to keep up with his everchanging marketing base. He hired the wrong people to fill the wrong positions and eventually he lost control of the ship. His "people" failed to tap into the pulse of his audience or his market - and eventually the market and audience shifted over to McMahon's product. Many people laugh at the XFL, but at the forefront of that monumental failure was also Vince McMahon's purchase of the WCW product from Time Warner - a company that was so mismanaged that nobody else wanted to pay a nickel for it. In retrospect - Turner tried stealing all of McMahon's talent away from him to try and run him out of business. When McMahahon purchased WCW, he also as a cool bonus received their PPV, TV, and DVD library distribution rights. McMahon is now making a profit off Ted Turner's ammunition that was designed to destroy McMahon in the first place. Turner's ideas looked real good on paper, but in reality they were not executed very well. Turner offered large paychecks for talent, but offered nothing of value in the presentation of this talent. The talent would merely show up - do what they had to do to get their large checks - and then they went home. This caused the comapany to fail miserably. I know a lot about this because I worked for the Turner product during its horrible demise. It was frustrating coming from another Sports Entertainment company (ECW) to watch these people with all of that money piss it away while going a million miles an hour in no particular direction. This is why I say it takes more than good ideas and money to make this a success. It takes the effort of everyone involved working towards a common goal.
Sorry if I bored anyone with that comparison, but it is an excellent example of how the guy with the biggest bank account won't always win over hard work,dedication and attention to detail.
Snapshot9 said:
In terms of PR alone he has shown himself superior the the WPA by a country mile.
The WPA reacted poorly is communicating a message to the pool world. They have lost player loyalty they might have gained from the IPT, if they had handled it differently by welcoming in the IPT and offering them a package they couldn't refuse....or at least by having appeared to have done so in the public's eye.
OldHasBeen
Tom Ferry
"I don't see ANY Reason For ANY Negitivity"!
What do we have to lose?
I think there are a lot of people & players trying to figure out just what this Kevin Trudeau (IPT) is doing and why he is doing it. In doing so, I think they are looking at a gift horse in the mouth.
SO, (IMO) -
He is doing it because HE CAN. He's got the money. I also believe that he LIKES (not loves) pool.
I do know one thing for sure. He's one smart, sharp businessman. AND
He is looking for a great deal on a under funded sport that he can propel and parlay into a great marketing tool for his corporation, NaturalCures.com
He knows that history repeats itself. He is convinced that POOL will be to NaturalCures.com - the same as BOXING was to GILLETTE.
I think he can see that Pro-Pool is in such disarray and yet has so much talent and entertainment value to offer, that with his skills and funding -
WE CAN BOTH COME OUT BIG WINNERS.
If a major corporation could have predicted the Hugh explosion of POKER, they could have became the (almost) exclusive sponsor of all future major events.
I think it is in everyone’s interest (including Kevin Trudeau's) to be as "Positive As Possible"!
Not all pool players claim to be gamblers - but I think the majority do - SO - Where's Our Gamble? THIS GUY'S PUTTIN UP THE CA$H (for a damn smart reason) and all he is asking is for is a chance to help US & HIM make a bunch of $$$.
What’s the worse that can happen?
Professional Pool Players would have to play for peanuts and not be rewarded for their talents?
Professional Pool Players wouldn't be able to justify an income based on Pool alone.
Professional Pool Players wouldn't have sponsors to put them On Tour and offer them a fair share of their winnings?
Professional Pool Players would have to supplement their meager incomes by wagering against each other and constantly worrying about their future, knowing that the way things are, it would be almost impossible to have a normal life and family.
“OH WAIT – THAT’S WHERE WE ARE NOW”!
I think we should start promoting & stop projecting.
(JMHO) - TY & GL
What do we have to lose?
I think there are a lot of people & players trying to figure out just what this Kevin Trudeau (IPT) is doing and why he is doing it. In doing so, I think they are looking at a gift horse in the mouth.
SO, (IMO) -
He is doing it because HE CAN. He's got the money. I also believe that he LIKES (not loves) pool.
I do know one thing for sure. He's one smart, sharp businessman. AND
He is looking for a great deal on a under funded sport that he can propel and parlay into a great marketing tool for his corporation, NaturalCures.com
He knows that history repeats itself. He is convinced that POOL will be to NaturalCures.com - the same as BOXING was to GILLETTE.
I think he can see that Pro-Pool is in such disarray and yet has so much talent and entertainment value to offer, that with his skills and funding -
WE CAN BOTH COME OUT BIG WINNERS.
If a major corporation could have predicted the Hugh explosion of POKER, they could have became the (almost) exclusive sponsor of all future major events.
I think it is in everyone’s interest (including Kevin Trudeau's) to be as "Positive As Possible"!
Not all pool players claim to be gamblers - but I think the majority do - SO - Where's Our Gamble? THIS GUY'S PUTTIN UP THE CA$H (for a damn smart reason) and all he is asking is for is a chance to help US & HIM make a bunch of $$$.
What’s the worse that can happen?
Professional Pool Players would have to play for peanuts and not be rewarded for their talents?
Professional Pool Players wouldn't be able to justify an income based on Pool alone.
Professional Pool Players wouldn't have sponsors to put them On Tour and offer them a fair share of their winnings?
Professional Pool Players would have to supplement their meager incomes by wagering against each other and constantly worrying about their future, knowing that the way things are, it would be almost impossible to have a normal life and family.
“OH WAIT – THAT’S WHERE WE ARE NOW”!
I think we should start promoting & stop projecting.
(JMHO) - TY & GL
These sports/entertainment businesses provide excellent insights to the challenges ahead for the IPT.Blackjack said:
It is certainly not a forgone conclusion that huge success will follow the initial investment into the IPT. Few have the talent / insight to develop a sports / entertainment empire. But the IPT seems to be starting in the right direction in my opinion.
You suggest the WCW's demise was partly due to the lack of loyalty of the performers. Do you believe this is a threat to the growth of the IPT?
In my study of business, a common opinion of loyalty among employees is that it starts at the top of the organization and trickles down. Perhaps Vince McMahon had this ability and Turner did not. After all, VM was a performer, he'd built the organization from the bottom up, I suspect he had the performer's respect.
Will KT be able to develop respect and loyalty? I suspect so if he can give the players what they've dreamed of, and I don't just mean the winners, I mean the hundreds of thousands of aspiring pros who would have something to aim at, a sport to be proud to be a part of, to read about, to watch, to support their heroes in gladiatorial competitions like we see in golf and tennis.
How highly do players think of Barry Hearn? Even though only part of his efforts have filtered into the US. I suspect he is admired graciously by most for what he has achieved. So I also think KT will gain the respect and support of pros and fans worldwide with his efforts. I just hope he can make all the other aspects of the business fall into place.
Colin >~Got on a ramble.
vagabond said:You must be a pro player from yester years to know and remember about that.Not many people know or remember about that very speicific info.
I thought that was common knowledge. I knew about it, and certainly am not a pro player of any era.
Kelly
One big difference
One big difference between the contracts for the WCW and the IPT is that WCW is contract based and IPT is winner based, you don't get more money in the IPT for going to the other guy. You still have to win to get the money. That might change but hell, the IPT isn't EVEN STARTED YET? LOL
Colin Colenso said:
One big difference between the contracts for the WCW and the IPT is that WCW is contract based and IPT is winner based, you don't get more money in the IPT for going to the other guy. You still have to win to get the money. That might change but hell, the IPT isn't EVEN STARTED YET? LOL
Colin Colenso said:
The first few paragraphs are my response to Mr. Colenso regarding the question he asked, which I have quoted. Towards the end I do talk about pool. I sincerely apologize if anyone thinks this is off topic, but I am making a point with this.
Colin,
The demise of the WCW product was due to many factors:
a) Turner concentrated all of his energy on putting McMahon out of business by luring talent away with big money contracts. During the "Monday Night Wars" Turner and his crew lost focus of where his product was headed.
b) Turner was not in the sport entertainment industry. He was in the "Let's put Vince McMahon out of Business" business. Turner did not understand that the wrestling "business" operated inside of a bubble. McMahon would never allow anyone outside of this "bubble" to come in and mess with the integrty of his product. Turner wasn't that smart. Initially Turner had a lot of momentum, but no competence. When WCW hit the wall, it crashed hard. A closer look shows that Turner was making emotional decisions to get back at McMahon for what happened in July of 1984. In the opinion of many people with the industry, Turner was ina business that he did not understand. He didnt understand it, so he had to hire somebody else to run it. They eventually ran it into the ground for him.
McMahon and Turner had done business together in the past and Turner held a grudge against Mcmahon. Turner had a lot of money, but Vince has the sports entertainent business in his blood. Vince's grandfather was a promoter andhis business eventually lead to the forming of Capitol Sports Entertainment, which was founded by Vincent McMahon Sr. In the early 1980's Vince bought out his father and put all the smaller regional promotions out of business by buying up the cable Tv markets to market his new WWF. The smaller promotions were left without the media market of television to promote their shows, nor were they able to compete with mcMahon on a marketig or production level when it came to their shows. During this time period Vince bought the TV Slot on TBS to drive away the Georgia Wrestling program that had occupied that slot for years. At the time, Georgia Championship Wrestling was being run, for the most part, by Ole (Al Rogowski) Anderson. The Brisco Brothers (Jack & Jerry) were shareholders in GCW and went behind everyone's backs and sold their shares to Vince McMahon, who was orchestrating his plans to take his WWF national and crush (or buy out) all his competition coast to coast. McMahon's success was due in part largely by this double cross. The wrestlers are merely pawns in that story (with teh exception of the Brisco's), and they always gravitated where the money was. When McMahon bought out the territories, work was scarce and many wrestlers became security guards and truck drivers.
At this point in time, McMahon's product is suffering due to the lack of competition in his market. He believes that because his game is the only game in town, that the public will eat whatever he feeds them. That is not the case and he is currently losing the ratings game to UFC (operated by Zuffa Entertainment - whom I work closely with). So its not so much about money more than its about having the vision to expand with your market and fan base.
How does this relate to pool?
Pool has the same opportunity to expand in ways that most of us have never dreamed possiblle, but do we have the vision to see past the money and into the untapped market /fanbase to provide something that will grasp their attention (and their money?) 8 ball is a great game, but it won't have my attention for very long (or Joe Q Public's) unless we shake things up a bit every now and then. McMahon took down Turner by doing one thing very effectively: Before moving in any direction creatively - He tossed out the rule book. If everyone expected him to go the left - he went right. He kept everyone guessing as to what he was going to do next and people tuned in to see what was going to happen on his show, and in turn they shut out Ted Turner's product in the process. Human emotion sells in today's reality based media market. Pool is a game that is filled with human emotion, yet we never tap into that in our presentation. Perhaps KT can change that, or maybe he won't.
For years I have said that they should set up a tournament - no games/no holds barred. 64 players. When you match up, the players can set up the match anyway they want - 9 ball, one pocket, 14.1, whatever they decide. Let them have their backers, their posses, have sidebets - put a 20 minute timelimit on all of them to come to an agreement and play out the matches - show pool for what it is. Take the veil off of it. May the best man win. That would make for some exciting TV... better yet.. anyone can show up and challenge anyone for their "spot". That would create human emotion, genuine excitement, and would attract viewers. We need to throw the rule book out the window and move in an innovative direction to market the sport. Right now, we are doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. If the product is not marketed differently, it will just be the same characters, same game, just more money.
Blackjack said:
Mr. Blackjack, you have brought up yet another problem I have with this IPT operation. They are only offering just eight-ball & no other variation of pool.
I must disagree with your assessment of eight ball as a game; I have never held eight ball in that high of an esteem, truth be told. Granted, it does offer a bit of strategy here and there but not enough to really hold my interest or take it seriously other than an occasional timekiller.
The only time I really see eight ball being played is when I'm visiting a tavern & the amateur/beginner leagues are playing on the bar boxes. When I visit a poolroom, the game I see played is mostly nine-ball with a sprinkling of ten ball or a dash of one pocket.
If the IPT is going to try to grab the attention of the non-pool & amateur/beginner playing populace, they need to showcase more disciplines of pool. Playing only eight ball is not a wise choice as far as television broadcasting is concerned as the games can get rather boring & tedious to the casual or uninformed player.
If I were an uninformed player thinking of taking up the game for the first time or a beginning/amateur player looking to better my overall game, I would be looking to see a pool match on television that showcases big breaks, big strokes and a high number of well executed run-outs. Seeing an ongoing defensive battle would be uninteresting to me if I were a non-player/amateur/beginner. After seeing defensive play after defensive play with no balls being pocketed, I would likely be turning the television off or switching to another channel.
This whole thing leads me back yet again to my original assessments of the IPT & Kevin Trudeau, which I don't feel need repeating. Those statements can be freely read.
Blackjack said:
Thanks for the insights into the WWF etc. I have read a bit on Vince's past and enjoyed many of his productions.
I agree that the method of production is crucial to the IPT. Seems they are doing things a bit differently as their promo video suggests. I'll be very interested to see how the put the first event together for TV and how the King of the Hill is done. It does seem he is working with some decent creatives to put something interesting together.
The best method of production is not that easy to agree upon however. Other sports, such as golf and tennis have done well following mostly standardized competition formats, improving their quality through attractive editing of promos, player interviews, good commentary, improved digital graphics, quality camera work and commentary.
Some sports thrive on the nationalistic aspect, some the local or even individual aspect.
There are many aspects of the game that could appeal to audiences, the gambling / hustling aspect being on of them.
I hope the IPT will try a few new things and find those which work better than others. Vince's ideas likely developed over years of experience in enetertaining audiences. There are few in the pool world who have managed a really entertaining show, so most of our ideas on what could work need development.
Anyway, it's good food for thought.
Colin
vader93490 said:
Obviously, he dosen't cow to the "majority rules" mentality.
Players that can't play 8ball won't participate.
Players who feel they have the ability are certainly going to try and win some of those millions.
The rest are going to sit around and applaud or complain.
Pretty simple formula.
This isn't about us.
Everyone keeps saying it's eight ball it can;'t hold OUR attention for very long.
I detest eightball I haven't played it seriously for probably 8 years. However, WE understand all of the nuances of the game, the people KT is trying to bring into the game i.e. the masses, DON'T!!! In fact for the vast majority of the requisite fan base that needs to be generated to get pool over the hump, EIGHTBALL is the ONLY game.
It doesn't matter what we as pool players would like, this is what has been missing, the sacrifice pool players need to make to bring pool to the masses. Once it's there then we can introduce the games and the modes of play that we like because the masses will have a vested interest in POOL.
Everyone keeps saying it's eight ball it can;'t hold OUR attention for very long.
I detest eightball I haven't played it seriously for probably 8 years. However, WE understand all of the nuances of the game, the people KT is trying to bring into the game i.e. the masses, DON'T!!! In fact for the vast majority of the requisite fan base that needs to be generated to get pool over the hump, EIGHTBALL is the ONLY game.
It doesn't matter what we as pool players would like, this is what has been missing, the sacrifice pool players need to make to bring pool to the masses. Once it's there then we can introduce the games and the modes of play that we like because the masses will have a vested interest in POOL.
OldHasBeen
Tom Ferry
Jaden - YOU GOT IT!
100% CORRECT
TY & GL
Jaden said:
100% CORRECT
TY & GL