Who won AZ 14.1 State Championships?

[CocoboloCowboy]

.I stopped by Bullshooters the other day and really liked the place but they said no tournaments because the players dont spend enough money,me and my friend werent too happy hearing that,its a big room and could have a kick @ss tournament.I liked table 26 I believe there,its a great 1 hole table and super tight. :thumbup:

This is the reason AZHousePros buddy Chuck P. could no longer have tournaments there when they were Six Shooters. Chuck p use to do a Monthly Saturday Event.

Apparently the management of Six Shooters realized there was nothing it for the business to support pool tournaments.

I am sure there are some who feel a business like Bull Shooters, or as it was called before Six Shooter should support pool. But being a former business owner, bills, pay roll, etc. come first. Before give anything away.

I would not like to be the one responsive for paying rent on Bull Shooters, or the Hot summer utilities bills, plus all the other on going expenses on a operation that large.

Think the focus of Bull Shooters will be DARTS, and POOL LEAGUES. notice they do not advertise in any of the Valley's (3) Pool Papers.

 

[BigCat]

Sorry, Ray, I was away from this thread for a few days. I'll try to answer your questions now.

Q: "Is this why Pappy's won't use the Arizona ratings?"

A: Pappy's isn't using anything anymore. They quit holding tournaments altogether. I'm not there any longer, either. But while I was there I got tired of attending 2 to 3-hour GPARC meetings where the process of rating players seemed to be far less democratic and fair than I felt it should be. When I quit attending those meetings Pappy's still needed a way to take care of their regular players, so I started my own in-house rating list.

Q: "And is this the same event that prompted someone (you?) to engage law officials into the calcuttas that were going on during pool tournaments?"

A: No, I seriously doubt that anyone cared what my circumstances were at that time. And no, it was not I who dropped the dime on the calcuttas. I may not have approved of some of the things I saw going on, but it's not my style to snitch anybody off to the law.


Q: "Did you start the arizonabilliardsdirectory website? That would explain why the ratings on that website are incomplete and some of the ratings are inaccurate."

A: Yes, I did start the arizonabilliardsdirectory website. When I left Pappy's, I had over 500 rated players on my list. I was left wondering what I should do with that list. Should I just throw it away? Should I give it to one of the other pool rooms on the west side of town since that's where most of its players resided? And if so, which pool room should I give it to? So I finally decided to expand the list and make it public. I then researched 3 year's worth of back issues of AZ Billiards News and Table Talk (I save everything ), web reports, league reports, and anything else I could get my hands on that might tell me which players were still active in AZ, and what their current ratings might be. Where there was doubt on any rating, I referred to the last GPARC list I had in my possession and adopted that rating. When I had as many names as I could possibly put on the new list, I wound up with over 2,000. Now I know I might have missed a few hundred active players that are still on the GPARC committe's list, but I also have over 600 new and active players on my list that don't show up on their's. As far as accuracy goes, all ratings, mine or their's, are just someone else's opinions. I guess it boils down to, who's opinion do you want to use when having to make a decision where a rating matters? But it really doesn't matter to me which rating you want to go by. My rating service is a guide, a tool, that's all. It can be used freely by anyone at any time, or not used at all. It's everyone's choice for themselves. BTW, my website has so much more on it than just ratings. I'm hoping everyone will see the value of that content, rather than judging the site on its rating list.


Q: "BTW, what do you think your rating should be?"

A: That's a very good question, Ray. As I said before, ratings are just opinions. In the past, whenever someone would ask me what my rating is, I've told them I don't have one, and then asked them to give me their own opinion. Their answer was always the same, "Well, you're at least a 9." That's never told me a whole lot. Does "at least a 9" mean I am a 9, or does it mean I might be a 10? All I know for sure is, at Pappy's we would hold two open, non-handicapped tournaments a week, one 8-Ball and one 9-Ball. The only thing the ratings were used for was to determine how much you had to pay to get in. I rated myself a 10 so that I would have to pay $10. We had some fairly stiff competition there, but I usually came in first or second after I started playing regularly. I beat Charles Peten (rated 10) in the finals more times than he cares to remember. But after Jon Smith (rated 10-1) started showing up at every one of those tournaments, I became known as "Mr. 2nd." Still, I'm not that sure where any of that would fit me in. Now there is a new scoring system being tested in a Wed. night league at BullShooters that shows me playing at a high 9 level, but the guidelines for determining the different levels are not fully developed yet, so who knows?

Thanks for the interest, Ray. If you have any further questions, please feel free to ask.

Roger

I actually have many more questions, but I will refrain from asking them as to not hijack this thread anymore than I have already. I will just say that almost all 10's and above got their rating by playing in more than just a couple of weekly tournaments in 2 or 3 establishments in one city. They generally play and perform well at larger regional events that are statewide across Arizona and also fair well in other regional tournaments in other states.

Thanks for responding.

Ray

 

[Fast Lenny]

You know Bruce I used to think you were just crazy for cocobolo cues. Now I think you are just flat out crazy!
Would you like to play sometime? Since you are so fond of handicapping we can play to our handicaps. I go to 8 and you go to whatever your handicap is. We can play any game you want and any rules you want. I am by no means a world class player or even a shortstop but I will have no problem whipping your ass in some pool. I will give you 2 to 1 on your money and drive to where you want to play.

What do ya say Bruce?

BVal

So whats the game?What are you giving up?

 

[Roger Long]

I actually have many more questions, but I will refrain from asking them as to not hijack this thread anymore than I have already. I will just say that almost all 10's and above got their rating by playing in more than just a couple of weekly tournaments in 2 or 3 establishments in one city. They generally play and perform well at larger regional events that are statewide across Arizona and also fair well in other regional tournaments in other states.

Thanks for responding.

Ray

I will say that most 10's and above got their ratings that way, but I can't agree that almost all did. Have you ever heard of a 10-2 rated player by the name of Jeff Glazier? Ask around and see if anybody can tell you how he earned his rating. I can also think of several other 10's who were given their ratings using criteria other than regional tournament performance, but I won't be naming them here.

My personal feeling is that a rating reflects a certain level of respect, and that level can be influenced by one's knowledge, and by accomplishments outside the norm. A shining example of this would be "San Jose Dick" McMorran (SJDinPHX on these forums). Dick's knowledge and experience in this game are second to none. It would be highly disrespectful to consider this man anything less than a 10-1 player, and yet, the GPARC carries him on their list as a 9. When I asked them why, they told me it was because he never played in tournaments. When I countered with, Jack Madden never plays in tournaments and he is on your list as a 10, why is that? They said, out of respect.

Roger

p.s. Hey, Dick! I wasn't trying to snitch you off, man; I was only trying to give a little credit where credit is due. I hope I don't have to be looking over my shoulder for ya. Besides, none of your fish will be reading this anyway.

 

[Roger Long]

Jon Smith is a tough guy to play,I one once against him and won then the 2nd time we played he drilled me.I stopped by Bullshooters the other day and really liked the place but they said no tournaments because the players dont spend enough money,me and my friend werent too happy hearing that,its a big room and could have a kick @ss tournament.I liked table 26 I believe there,its a great 1 hole table and super tight. :thumbup:

Lenny,

After I read this, I went down to BullShooters and talked to Darly, the owner, and he confirmed what you said. Oddly enough, their grand opening is this Saturday and they are hosting a $1,000 dart tournament, and their pool revenue for the day will be donated to Make-A-Wish Foundation.

Although the place is huge, they seemed to have a lot of people in there for 9:00 on a Thursday night - I'd say about 50-60 cars in the parking lot, and over 100 people in the room. Since I was only a mile from Alexander's (a sports bar known for great tournaments and money play) I decided to drive past there and see how they were doing. They looked DEAD! There were only 2 cars in the parking lot, and only 2 cars in front of The Dunes (a bar next door).

Maybe BullShooters is onto something?

Roger

 

[Fast Lenny]

Lenny,

After I read this, I went down to BullShooters and talked to Darly, the owner, and he confirmed what you said. Oddly enough, their grand opening is this Saturday and they are hosting a $1,000 dart tournament, and their pool revenue for the day will be donated to Make-A-Wish Foundation.

Although the place is huge, they seemed to have a lot of people in there for 9:00 on a Thursday night - I'd say about 50-60 cars in the parking lot, and over 100 people in the room. Since I was only a mile from Alexander's (a sports bar known for great tournaments and money play) I decided to drive past there and see how they were doing. They looked DEAD! There were only 2 cars in the parking lot, and only 2 cars in front of The Dunes (a bar next door).

Maybe BullShooters is onto something?

Roger

I guess its tough for a players room to survive but I will go to Bullshooters again,it was $3 an hour and decent tables,the one table was a perfect one pocket table,I thought 6 and 13 were tough at Kolbys,26 at Bullshooter is tougher and slower.I think they should have a monthly if they can,maybe make it a $35 entry or something with $5 per entry going to the house.That room would be perfect for a good size monthly tourney.

 

[Prince]

In response to post #61....sorry

For the life of me, i could never understand this mentality. While pool players may not spend as much money as dart players, i can almost guarantee this. During a big pool tournament, which usually averages 50+ players (not counting say....25 additional spectators), each player/spectator will spend a MINIMUM of $15.00 a day in the establishment (on average). This has been tested and proven!

So let's see 50 players + 25 spectators X 15.00 = $1125.00 MINIMUM DAILY SALES GUARANTEED! + the $200 tab that "you know who" has at every Arizona tourney =$1325.00.

And this is for a one day tourney. And believe it or not, it won't even tie up those dart boards. If you can top that in regular table time in a few hour on a Saturday afternoon, which i highly doubt, then forget the pool tournaments, this argument is over and I will side with you.

The issue arises when you have people running establishments, who are not familiar with pool, or are not sure how to organize a big pool event. I think you would be hard pressed to say that Ron Merseal, Jimmy Langston, Bob Jackson, and Pooch and many others weren't successful, and they catered to pool players. They were/are successful because they know pool.

Why cater to one, when you have the ability to make money off of both. Pretty simple to figure out from here. Heck, some of the pool players may even become dart players.

Dennis

 

[SJDinPHX]

In response to post #61....sorry

For the life of me, i could never understand this mentality. While pool players may not spend as much money as dart players, i can almost guarantee this. During a big pool tournament, which usually averages 50+ players (not counting say....25 additional spectators), each player/spectator will spend a MINIMUM of $15.00 a day in the establishment (on average). This has been tested and proven!

So let's see 50 players + 25 spectators X 15.00 = $1125.00 MINIMUM DAILY SALES GUARANTEED! + the $200 tab that "you know who" has at every Arizona tourney =$1325.00.

And this is for a one day tourney. And believe it or not, it won't even tie up those dart boards. If you can top that in regular table time in a few hour on a Saturday afternoon, which i highly doubt, then forget the pool tournaments, this argument is over and I will side with you.

The issue arises when you have people running establishments, who are not familiar with pool, or are not sure how to organize a big pool event. I think you would be hard pressed to say that Ron Merseal, Jimmy Langston, Bob Jackson, and Pooch and many others weren't successful, and they catered to pool players. They were/are successful because they know pool.

Why cater to one, when you have the ability to make money off of both. Pretty simple to figure out from here. Heck, some of the pool players may even become dart players.

Dennis

Dennis, I think your numbers are sensible and maybe even conservative. It's a shame that an area, with a population of 3 million, is left with so few options when it comes to promoting the game. If they all had Jimmy Langston's attitude, there could be 6 or 8 successful action type pool rooms in the valley. Metro is at least trying to help out. Thats a total of "one" for the entire West Valley! (Population, 1,350,000) Thats unbelievable ! I may open a pool room myself

Dick

PS Call me any time you're going to be on this side of town, I'd be happy to give/take a few lessons.
JM has my cel#.

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

Lenny,

After I read this, I went down to BullShooters and talked to Darly, the owner, and he confirmed what you said. Oddly enough, their grand opening is this Saturday and they are hosting a $1,000 dart tournament, and their pool revenue for the day will be donated to Make-A-Wish Foundation.

Roger

When I was in BullShooters (2) weeks ago I saw a flyer discribing that garnd opening you spoke of Roger. Nothing about pool, just a DART EVENTS with a 1K Prize. Dark player Drink more BOOZE IMHO.

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

In response to post #61....sorry

For the life of me, i could never understand this mentality. While pool players may not spend as much money as dart players, i can almost guarantee this. During a big pool tournament, which usually averages 50+ players (not counting say....25 additional spectators), each player/spectator will spend a MINIMUM of $15.00 a day in the establishment (on average). This has been tested and proven!

So let's see 50 players + 25 spectators X 15.00 = $1125.00 MINIMUM DAILY SALES GUARANTEED! + the $200 tab that "you know who" has at every Arizona tourney =$1325.00.

And this is for a one day tourney. And believe it or not, it won't even tie up those dart boards. If you can top that in regular table time in a few hour on a Saturday afternoon, which i highly doubt, then forget the pool tournaments, this argument is over and I will side with you.

The issue arises when you have people running establishments, who are not familiar with pool, or are not sure how to organize a big pool event. I think you would be hard pressed to say that Ron Merseal, Jimmy Langston, Bob Jackson, and Pooch and many others weren't successful, and they catered to pool players. They were/are successful because they know pool.

Why cater to one, when you have the ability to make money off of both. Pretty simple to figure out from here. Heck, some of the pool players may even become dart players.

Dennis

Well Dennis that is a good question, and maybe you need to go to the source, and ask it to the OWNERS of Bullshooter this weekend at their GRAND OPENING. Maybe they can tell you how, and why they are doing a Dart thing for their Grand Opening, and not a Pool thing.

BTW Dennis have you ever personally own a business, that you depended upon 100% for you livelihood?

I have and understand to many who only see the money coming in, that there is in many cases as much money going out, and not much for all the effort many times.

As I said I once asked Chuck Purcell who was the Chuck P I refereed to, as I now remember his last name. Why no more Saturday afternoon Tournaments at SixShooter.

Like he told me the owner pulled the plug on the Pool, as they decided in so many words Dart Event were better for their bottom line.

The other person you might want to talk with is Mike Howerton as I believe the last year he had his Oldhausen 1K Add Tour/All Around. SixShooter if my memory cancelled use of their place for one of the VENUES, as they did not want to put in $500.00 as a host big table event, as it was a not a profitable event for them. Kobly's I believe was where the event was moved.

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

So whats the game?What are you giving up?

Well Fast Lenny in post #54 , it was stated:

"I have offered him everything in the world to play"

As that is a person I do not normally reply to, I did not respond to him. But IMHO I did not see any offer of the world. Did you happen to?

Like I said that person is on a small list of a few select members on AZB I ignore, and do not reply to.

As life is easier that way, and my blood pressure stays down in what they call normal range.

 

[sde]

Well Fast Lenny in post #54 , it was stated: ? I have offered him everything in the world to play?

As that is a person I do not normally reply to. I did not respond. But IMHO I did not see any offer of the world. Did you.

Like I said he is on a small list of those I ignore, like is easier that way, and my blood pressure stays down.

Did you read post #52?

This looks to be a fair offer even if it is not "the world".

<snip>
Would you like to play sometime? Since you are so fond of handicapping we can play to our handicaps. I go to 8 and you go to whatever your handicap is. We can play any game you want and any rules you want. <snip> I will give you 2 to 1 on your money and drive to where you want to play.

What do ya say Bruce?

BVal

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

Did you read post #52?

This looks to be a fair offer even if it is not "the world".

AS I said many times before, I M not a Gambler. It is a Gambling offer.

As I also said. "he is on a small list of those I ignore, like is easier that way, and my blood pressure stays down." FYI he is on that list.

BTW fair to one is not fair to another in many cases IMHO.:wink:

 

[Roger Long]

In response to post #61....sorry

For the life of me, i could never understand this mentality. While pool players may not spend as much money as dart players, i can almost guarantee this. During a big pool tournament, which usually averages 50+ players (not counting say....25 additional spectators), each player/spectator will spend a MINIMUM of $15.00 a day in the establishment (on average). This has been tested and proven!

So let's see 50 players + 25 spectators X 15.00 = $1125.00 MINIMUM DAILY SALES GUARANTEED! + the $200 tab that "you know who" has at every Arizona tourney =$1325.00.

And this is for a one day tourney. And believe it or not, it won't even tie up those dart boards. If you can top that in regular table time in a few hour on a Saturday afternoon, which i highly doubt, then forget the pool tournaments, this argument is over and I will side with you.

The issue arises when you have people running establishments, who are not familiar with pool, or are not sure how to organize a big pool event. I think you would be hard pressed to say that Ron Merseal, Jimmy Langston, Bob Jackson, and Pooch and many others weren't successful, and they catered to pool players. They were/are successful because they know pool.

Why cater to one, when you have the ability to make money off of both. Pretty simple to figure out from here. Heck, some of the pool players may even become dart players.

Dennis

I'm with you on that one, Dennis. Why wouldn't a place have a pool tournament if they can make money on it? Do they have an aversion to money? I would hope not. A place can't stay in business very long that way.

Roger

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

I'm with you on that one, Dennis. Why wouldn't a place have a pool tournament if they can make money on it? Do they have an aversion to money? I would hope not. A place can't stay in business very long that way.

Roger

Well Roger I would assume that Pappy's New Owners have their idea how to make the most money from what was, and now is.

That is why they removed how many Pool tables from Pappy's.

I understand when Shirt Pocket Bob, and Bryan Mordt both had the Pro Shop in Pappy's is a a BUZZ with Pool.

Now Pappy?s has change directions per the new owners vision.

The only way to find out 110% for sure why the Owner of BullShooters is or is not going to have a focus on Pool, is to ask the NEW OWNER what their plan is.

But I think their Grand Opening, or Reopening Flyers tell a story of their focus on DARTS..

 

[BVal]

AS I said many times before, I M not a Gambler. It is a Gambling offer.

As I also said. "he is on a small list of those I ignore, like is easier that way, and my blood pressure stays down." FYI he is on that list.

BTW fair to one is not fair to another in many cases IMHO.:wink:

We dont have to gamble Bruce. The game I offered is more than fair but since you think it isnt let me know what u think would be fair and we will play that way. You pick the game. You pick the rules. You pick the place. I will be there. What more could I offer you? Do you have the heart to step up and play? I am pretty sure I already know the answer to that question. I will wait for your response or lack of response to confirm. BVal

 

[back2good1]

You forgot to offer to pay for go-go juice...

We dont have to gamble Bruce. The game I offered is more than fair but since you think it isnt let me know what u think would be fair and we will play that way. You pick the game. You pick the rules. You pick the place. I will be there. What more could I offer you? Do you have the heart to step up and play? I am pretty sure I already know the answer to that question. I will wait for your response or lack of response to confirm. BVal

He may also require water for him and his mule. IMO

 

[BVal]

He may also require water for him and his mule. IMO

I will pay for his gas and water too. BVal

 

[Prince]

Well Dennis that is a good question, and maybe you need to go to the source, and ask it to the OWNERS of Bullshooter this weekend at their GRAND OPENING. Maybe they can tell you how, and why they are doing a Dart thing for their Grand Opening, and not a Pool thing.

BTW Dennis have you ever personally own a business, that you depended upon 100% for you livelihood?

I have and understand to many who only see the money coming in, that there is in many cases as much money going out, and not much for all the effort many times.

As I said I once asked Chuck Purcell who was the Chuck P I refereed to, as I now remember his last name. Why no more Saturday afternoon Tournaments at SixShooter.

Like he told me the owner pulled the plug on the Pool, as they decided in so many words Dart Event were better for their bottom line.

The other person you might want to talk with is Mike Howerton as I believe the last year he had his Oldhausen 1K Add Tour/All Around. SixShooter if my memory cancelled use of their place for one of the VENUES, as they did not want to put in $500.00 as a host big table event, as it was a not a profitable event for them. Kobly's I believe was where the event was moved.

Let me respond to each of your points:

First of all, it's none of my business as to why they are doing a "dart thing" or a "pool thing". Each business owner has their reasons. I was simply stating that if it were me, i would cater to both hobbies and maximize my profits.

Secondly, they have already been approached through a third party for the Desert Classic Tour. It is possible a future event may be held there if we can work out some of the kinks, which do not need to be explained in this forum. I'm way ahead of you.

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

Let me respond to each of your points:

First of all, it's none of my business as to why they are doing a "dart thing" or a "pool thing". Each business owner has their reasons. I was simply stating that if it were me, i would cater to both hobbies and maximize my profits.

Well as you said each business owner has their reasons.

Secondly, they have already been approached through a third party for the Desert Classic Tour. It is possible a future event may be held there if we can work out some of the kinks, which do not need to be explained in this forum. I'm way ahead of you.

Well I say good luck to you.