Who would win a race to 7 Mosconi or Sigel in there primes

[jay helfert]

sigel would have won for a few months .then mosconi would have picked up the moving ,break,pushout and other little things and made it a close match.
in the beginning though i or sigel or any pro 9baller would have edged him out.
willie was right 9ball is a joke.
i won the usopen 9ball and i still say its a joke.
ive heard alot of top players today say 14.1 is easy or lame.
meanwhile its just to hard for them thats all.
they can try to run over 200 a few times in a month and come back and tell me how easy it is.lol

I agree John, 14.1 is a tougher game to excel at, and you sure do. Don't make the mistake of underestimating the great Mosconi. He had a BURNING desire to win! He didn't like the thought of anyone beating him at any game. If magically we could put him and Sigel together in a room, I think Mike would wilt first. At 9-Ball or 14.1.

Mosconi had the best move down in 9-ball, RUN OUT, RUN OUT, RUN OUT! I heard about what he did to Nicky Vach in Philly on a tough 10' table. The guys who were there were in awe of what they witnessed. Some said it was the best 9-ball they ever saw played. And these were peers of Lassiter and Willis.

 

[Johnnyt]

He was a great player for sure, and your right he took his loses very hard. I met him twice. Once at an exibition at my Dad's room and then in a room in NYC. I didn't like him at all. If he wasn't who he was I'd of bitc** slapped him. He needed it. Johnnyt

 

[smashmouth]

was it not you that mentioned Willis robbed Mosconi?

 

[john schmidt]

I agree John, 14.1 is a tougher game to excel at, and you sure do. Don't make the mistake of underestimating the great Mosconi. He had a BURNING desire to win! He didn't like the thought of anyone beating him at any game. If magically we could put him and Sigel together in a room, I think Mike would wilt first. At 9-Ball or 14.1.

Mosconi had the best move down in 9-ball, RUN OUT, RUN OUT, RUN OUT! I heard about what he did to Nicky Vach in Philly on a tough 10' table. The guys who were there were in awe of what they witnessed. Some said it was the best 9-ball they ever saw played. And these were peers of Lassiter and Willis.

i agree willie would have run out from everywhere.the only thing that makes me lean towards sigel would have been the break.without even seeing willie break i can almost be sure his break would have been quite inferior.
i too heard about him giving a good player 5 and break.the thing is on a 5=10 the guy breaking is hardly ever going to make ball on break therefore leaving willie first chance to draw blood.

 

[Nostroke]

He was a great player for sure, and your right he took his loses very hard. Johnnyt

He cried on National TV when Fats finally beat him in one of those Legends matches. Fats was standing straight up shooting balls in, never aiming at all, yapping through the stroke, lucking balls in at the right time etc but manged to squeak out the victory. Then the camera turns to Willie sitting there with some tears running down his face



Fats takes the mic and explains to the crowd how Willie was the greatest player whoever lived and he didnt like losing to nobody without ever mentioning the tears directly. Anyway Fats grew an inch or two more in my eyes the day I saw that. Surprised me a bit too.

 

[jay helfert]

i agree willie would have run out from everywhere.the only thing that makes me lean towards sigel would have been the break.without even seeing willie break i can almost be sure his break would have been quite inferior.
i too heard about him giving a good player 5 and break.the thing is on a 5=10 the guy breaking is hardly ever going to make ball on break therefore leaving willie first chance to draw blood.

You got it John. That's exactly what happened. Nicky's break wasn't working and Willie kept running out. Pretty perceptive of you.

 

[jay helfert]

was it not you that mentioned Willis robbed Mosconi?

If you're talking to me the answer is no. I never said anything like that. I don't even know if they played. Someone else may have said it on another thread a while back. I think I do know who may have said it. Don's grandson posts on here sometimes.

 

[jay helfert]

He was a great player for sure, and your right he took his loses very hard. I met him twice. Once at an exibition at my Dad's room and then in a room in NYC. I didn't like him at all. If he wasn't who he was I'd of bitc** slapped him. He needed it. Johnnyt

I played Willie in an exhibition at Ye Billiard Den in Hollywood in the 60's. He wasn't the friendliest of guys, particularly when he was playing. He demanded your complete attention and would sharply criticize the equipment if he missed a ball. The term "prima donna" comes to mind.

But purely from the standpoint of his playing ability, he was clearly one of the greatest ever. He had that cue ball on a string. In the match I played him he ran 131 and out. I overheard a woman spectator remark "He's not that good, he never had to make a hard shot". That's how good his position play was.

 

[SJDinPHX]

I agree John, 14.1 is a tougher game to excel at, and you sure do. Don't make the mistake of underestimating the great Mosconi. He had a BURNING desire to win! He didn't like the thought of anyone beating him at any game. If magically we could put him and Sigel together in a room, I think Mike would wilt first. At 9-Ball or 14.1.

Mosconi had the best move down in 9-ball, RUN OUT, RUN OUT, RUN OUT! I heard about what he did to Nicky Vach in Philly on a tough 10' table. The guys who were there were in awe of what they witnessed. Some said it was the best 9-ball they ever saw played. And these were peers of Lassiter and Willis.

Not taking any thing away from the greats at 14.1, past or present, but my take, of the major disciplines, Straight pool would fall to third place; behind straight rotation, (a game Mosconi himself said was the toughest
game on a pool table) and one pocket.
We all know rotation has dropped off the scope. It appears 10 ball, alternate break, is replacing 9 ball, and I for one, think it's a much fairer test, in a long race, than winner break 9 ball.
That being said, There are NO insurance balls, or two way shape in straight rotation, as there are in straight pool or one pocket. You must simply navigate through a full field of balls to find shape on your next OB.
One pocket (a popular choice among todays champions, and a great gambling game) requires a wider variety of skills, banking, shotmaking,
imagination, and pin point safety play, than does 14.1 But I still believe, the first player who amasses 500 points first, in straight rotation, would be the best player nine tmes out of ten.
I know Efren cut his teeth on that game, maybe, just maybe, Thats why all our little fun games came so easy to him.

JMHO,

Dick

 

[smashmouth]

If you're talking to me the answer is no. I never said anything like that. I don't even know if they played. Someone else may have said it on another thread a while back. I think I do know who may have said it. Don's grandson posts on here sometimes.

I started a thread on Mosconi last year, as it turns out, it was Freddy the Beard who said Mosconi lost to Willis as well as Gene Skinner

 

[SJDinPHX]

Maybeee....We'll never know. Mosconi in his prime was just as good a player as Mike IMO. He may not have missed a ball or position in a 9-Ball match for hours at a time. He once beat a good player named Nicky Vacchiano giving him the 5 and the break on a ten foot table. None of the hustlers ever asked Mosconi about a 9-ball game again.

I like Mike's game too, but when you bring up Mosconi you are talking about one of the most talented individuals to ever hold a cue.

Jay, Have to call you on that one. Calling Nicky " Vachhi ",as they called him in Philly, a good player, would be a stretch. But he was one of the sharpest gambler's, ( and nut hunter's) to come out of the east coast crowd. The 5 0n a 5x10, no matter who breaks, is a ton of weight. I also heard it was semi-sociable. ( so as not to put too much strain on Willie's delicate psyche)

Dick

 

[dirtypool40]

I have an old SNAP magazine from about 1989 that features a recounting of a story of Willie putting a 14 (!) on a 9-ball hustler who was woofing at a straight pool competitor at the World Championships around 1950.

He wins the toss, breaks and runs 14, and the guys backer pulls up. He never got to shoot.

I'll see if I can find it for more detail.

No one asked me but...

In that video of him NOT in his prime, he does seem choked up on the cue and didn't move the cue ball as aggressively or forcefully as a lot of the pros do today.

I'd have to say a better measure would be something like Mosconi vs. Siegel in 14.1. 2 x races to 1000. One on a 10 footer with old style cloth and balls, and one on a tight 9 footer with simonis 860 and modern balls.

Even though I grew up in the Siegel era, and he may be the best 9-ball player ever, and one of the top 3-4 all around all time, I still like the best ever 14.1 player who ever lived, the MOSC, in both races.

I think he runs over everyone (except Greenleaf) on the wooly ten footer, and as JS mentioned, with some practice, a month or two at most, he still has to be the favorite on the new equipment.

As to how many he ran, I've heard "stories" of him practicing and not missing for days. Running balls for a couple hours, stopping to eat etc, but running over 700 in a day without a miss.

I heard he would sign up or walk in at the last minute to a major tournament to keep half the field from fleeing.

I've heard he had a visiting foriegn competitor ask him about someone ending up negative in a game of 14.1 and how unlikley that seemed. Legend has it that Willie bet the guy if he could beat him 150- (-x) then he would go home and not even play in the World match. They say Willie put a 150 and out on the guy from making him dig that 18 point hole.

The stories on Willie are fading, but they are out there.

 

[SJDinPHX]

Never mind a race to 7. I want to know who would win a race to THREE!

Race to one would be all I'd pay to watch. I did enjoy a thrilling match between Big Cat and Roger last night. I think they raced to 300 games.

Dick

 

[Nostroke]

Race to one would be all I'd pay to watch. I did enjoy a thrilling match between Big Cat and Roger last night. I think they raced to 300 games.

Dick

Trivia-A race to one tournament-Art Wiggins takes it down over a very formiable field. Where and Why?

 

[huckster]

Willie Mosconi was the third most talented person to ever hold a cue in my opinon (Effie, Harold Worst) but I think Mike wins until Willie learns how to break, and masters the 9 ball nuinces, then Willie is the favorite. Don Willis said of Mosconi that no one played straights like Willie but he never had the gamblers mentality. He needed perfect equipment, quite enviroment, and you could get under his skin. My grandfather played 14.1 with Mr. Mosconi a few times and respected his mastery of the game, but he always felt he would have had the better of it gambling at 9 ball, but if he beats Mosconi he gets no action. He was quoted as saying was he would rather play Joe Blow for $ 2 then a world champion for free.

 

[huckster]

Jay, Have to call you on that one. Calling Nicky " Vachhi ",as they called him in Philly, a good player, would be a stretch. But he was one of the sharpest gambler's, ( and nut hunter's) to come out of the east coast crowd. The 5 0n a 5x10, no matter who breaks, is a ton of weight. I also heard it was semi-sociable. ( so as not to put too much strain on Willie's delicate psyche)

Dick

It's true Dick but I heard it was the five winner breaks

 

[SJDinPHX]

Earth to Jimmy M......

Trivia-A race to one tournament-Art Wiggins takes it down over a very formiable field. Where and Why?

Just an inside Arizona joke, only the one I was responding to would understand it.

Dick

 

[SJDinPHX]

Willie Mosconi was the third most talented person to ever hold a cue in my opinon (Effie, Harold Worst) but I think Mike wins until Willie learns how to break, and masters the 9 ball nuinces, then Willie is the favorite. Don Willis said of Mosconi that no one played straights like Willie but he never had the gamblers mentality. He needed perfect equipment, quite enviroment, and you could get under his skin. My grandfather played 14.1 with Mr. Mosconi a few times and respected his mastery of the game, but he always felt he would have had the better of it gambling at 9 ball, but if he beats Mosconi he gets no action. He was quoted as saying was he would rather play Joe Blow for $ 2 then a world champion for free.

Huckster,

Can't dispute your ranking logic, and I totally agree with your grampa's take on playing champion's funsies.
Especially a champion with such delicate feelings.

Dick

 

[jay helfert]

Jay, Have to call you on that one. Calling Nicky " Vachhi ",as they called him in Philly, a good player, would be a stretch. But he was one of the sharpest gambler's, ( and nut hunter's) to come out of the east coast crowd. The 5 0n a 5x10, no matter who breaks, is a ton of weight. I also heard it was semi-sociable. ( so as not to put too much strain on Willie's delicate psyche)

Dick

Of course Nicky didn't compare with you Dick.
But he was one sharp cat around the poolroom, amassing a nice little fortune from gambling. He could do more than just play pool by the way. The way I heard the story is that Nicky thought he had Mosconi in a trap, except Willie outran the nuts. I never heard the part about it being semi sociable. And knowing Nicky, there wasn't anything sociable about it.

 

[SJDinPHX]

Of course Nicky didn't compare with you Dick.
But he was one sharp cat around the poolroom, amassing a nice little fortune from gambling. He could do more than just play pool by the way. The way I heard the story is that Nicky thought he had Mosconi in a trap, except Willie outran the nuts. I never heard the part about it being semi sociable. And knowing Nicky, there wasn't anything sociable about it.

Jay,

You are right on about Nicky being, as I said, a very sharp gambler, and a real moneymaker. He and I became quite well aquainted back in the Johnston City days. If I recall the Mosconi game, as he told it to me, he had a few $$ bet, with a bookie on the side, but, like dinner, with Willie. It was one of the few times he took the heat and went off for a few bucks. He made very few wrong moves. You know Mosconi better than I do. You surely know how he could get under the skin of a real gambler. You can surely be in awe of his skill, but he was NOT "one of us".

Dick

PS And as an aside, find me one book written by any of the old time scuffs, from Titanic, to Buddy or Grady, Who had anything good to say about his demeanor, or willingness to gamble. Sorry, I guess I'm just envious I couldn't play as good as him.... but you can bet the ranch, I had a lot more fun.