Who would win a race to 7 Mosconi or Sigel in there primes

pdcue said:
'Mosconi would be able to run balls, but he wouldn't know the safeties or strategies or the positional routes Sigel does'

Whatever led you to that conclusion?

Positional routes - I'm guessing you never saw Mike play 9 ball:).

BTW - Mosconi finished high against a field of world class 3C players,
as did Greenleaf. Trust me, they knew the routes.

Dale
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I figure that if he never put any serious practice into 9 ball he wouldn't be playing the same lock up safeties that Mike would.

I meant to say that Mike knows the 9 ball positional routes far better than Mosconi would.

I've watched the Mosconi vs. Fats match, and although Willie was over the hill at that point, he didn't play position like a 9 ball player, and I don't think his decision making process has anything to do with age. He wasn't sending the cueball into the path of the next object ball, as professionals do.

Just an opinion from a guy who never saw Willie play. The only thing I have to go on is that Fats vs Mosconi match in the late 70's. In that Match it gave me the impression that he didn't have much knoweledge of any of the other games.

But I will echo what everyone else has said, give Willie some time to practice, and he would have been the best 9 ball player in the world.
 
softshot said:
if you can win 15 world championships at straight pool.... you know EVERY position route.. and you know how to stop the ball at any point on that line..

and stop it anywhere on each line each different english creates....

play a safety in 9 ball hide him from one ball....

play a safety in 14.1 you have to hide him from EVERY ball..

which is more difficult?


possition routes?

..
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Not neccessarily. There is a difference between 9 ball position play and 14.1 position play. Same goes for safeties.

I personally think 14.1 is the more difficult game to excel at, but from my own personal experience, playing 9 ball without any knowledge of how to play it properly, it is really hit an miss how well you play. Simply because your relying almost entirely on your shot making ability.
 
SJDinPHX said:
Sorry sir, but in those days, a World Championship got you a cup of coffee and a nice trophy. I did not say he couldn't play, I just said he was a bit of a prima donna, egoist who dodged all the big money player's. I'm sorry but in the real world "money" is how you keep score. Apparently we live in two different worlds.

Best Regards,

Dick
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he was a prima donna and egoist. as far as gambling, brunswick required him not to. sarge mcdonald, who mosconi said was the best 14.1 player of the hustlers, said mosconi came to the VA hospital in milwaukee when mac had a lung removed and left money in the commisary for him. he's the only guy i heard say anything nice about mosconi. as far as exibitions from the late seventies on most of sigel's games were exibitions, including the gambling ones .
 
jimmyB said:
Who would win a race to 7 Mosconi or Mike Sigel in there primes.
Some of you old timers can shed some light on this. Sigel in his prime smokin cigarettes during the match. Completely cocky with his disco pants on. Ill tell you what though its the most impressive and most dominating play ive seen on a table ever. Mike still has his game I believe and his legend. The IPT players were star struck as most of the young ones had never played this guy. Willie was so down to earth its hard to compare the two.. but who do you all think would win?
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A local league player might beat either one of them in a race to 7! That set is way to short to determine who the better player is. Especially at that level. They'd have to play 10 or 20 ahead.
 
Neil said:
After reading this thread, I have to change my opinion a little. I think Sigel would win. And for one and only one reason- the break.

As far as position goes, Mosconi may not play the now so-called proper routes, but with his skill at 14.1, his routes would still get him to where he needs to be. So, that is a non-factor.

Woops- have to change opinion again! (starting to feel like an old lady!:eek: ) Sigel wins for two reasons- one nobody mentioned yet. Sigels mouth would drive Mosconi crazy!
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I've got to agree....with the break....until Willie learned to do a Cory Duel on them..............and especially the mouth part.

Do any of you earlier baby boomers, know if Harold Worst and Willie ever matched up or would that have been after Willie's stroke. Also do any of you have knowledge of George Ellis matching up with any of the greats of that era. He was Harold's sparring partner, and told me that back in that day he had matched up with Fat's a handful of times and took him for a grand each time. George said he never came out on top with Mosconi though, so I'm assuming that Harold got to match up with Willie too since they went together sometimes!?

I spent many, many hours with George in the 70's and 80's but didn't get to hear too many stories. If any of you have some it would be great to hear anything.

td
 
My Insight

Bigjohn said:
I'll take Sigel simply because Mosconi would have punched him out by the 3rd game and been disqualified.
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In the late 60's I became interested in becoming a champion. Alas I had no skill what so ever....I went to the closest University town and proceded to learn some very bad habits that I am still overcoming. It's very hard to unlearn. By the time I finally met a few champions in the early to mid 70's I was told a woman can't have a stroke and all the old and young duffers would laugh. One room owner showed me a McDermot that hit like a log and I bought it. While the boys got to look at the Meucci & Joss & Tads behind the glass. He also showed me a small red book about 5" x 7" on playing pool authored by Willie Mosconi. Everything in that book helped me so much from addressing the table, to stance, stroke.

This is where I agree with the guy that said Willie was an autistic savant. Willie talked about the game, the environment, the etiquette. He said he had laundry folded on his pool table and that he did not practise per sey. He had lived in hard times. He wished he could make money another way but pool was what he was good at. Pretty much to his avail.... The reason IMO that Willie gets so much flack attitude instead of the respect he deserves is that he flat out did not love the game the way most of us on AZ do. In this thread he has been accused of only playing nut games. Not true, he just didn't love the game enough to go off. Give history and the human condition a break. I lurk without sharing lots but you got my nose open now. Who out there thinks he would really throw a sucker punch or any punch on Mikey. I remember him when he was the hook.

By the way I never became a champion but I've played quite a few. I paid my dues. I Know cause I'm still paying for lessons the hard way occasionally.
 
Fast Lenny said:
We will never know what happened but I can tell you I spoke with Willies wife Flora in AC about 3 years ago,one of the questions I asked was what happened in that run and she said he got tired and stopped.
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The 'I got tired' story is the one he tells on his 1984(?) instructional
video, and had beed telling for years.

If you check Willie's Game pg 167, he describes the run, and the miss.
By that time it was widely known that there was an article, available
in the Springfield newspaper archives, that documented the missed shot
that ended the run.

One other point. He didn't miss. Many Mosconi detractors claim he
had some sort of pool Muligan and kept going after a miss.

In fact, there is a notorized affidavit, drawn up by a lawyer, one of the many spectators, signed by about 50 people, attesting to the validity
of the total.

Dale
 
pdcue said:
The 'I got tired' story is the one he tells on his 1984(?) instructional
video, and had beed telling for years.

If you check Willie's Game pg 167, he describes the run, and the miss.
By that time it was widely known that there was an article, available
in the Springfield newspaper archives, that documented the missed shot
that ended the run.

One other point. He didn't miss. Many Mosconi detractors claim he
had some sort of pool Muligan and kept going after a miss.

In fact, there is a notorized affidavit, drawn up by a lawyer, one of the many spectators, signed by about 50 people, attesting to the validity
of the total.

Dale
Click to expand...
Well I did see that in Willies Game so he has 2 stories just like he had about Fats,first saying The Hustler was made about New York Fats and then it was totally fictional and the character was made up just like Mickey Mouse. :cool:
 
pdcue said:
The 'I got tired' story is the one he tells on his 1984(?) instructional
video, and had beed telling for years.

If you check Willie's Game pg 167, he describes the run, and the miss.
By that time it was widely known that there was an article, available
in the Springfield newspaper archives, that documented the missed shot
that ended the run.

One other point. He didn't miss. Many Mosconi detractors claim he
had some sort of pool Muligan and kept going after a miss.

In fact, there is a notorized affidavit, drawn up by a lawyer, one of the many spectators, signed by about 50 people, attesting to the validity
of the total.

Dale
Click to expand...

Dale,
Is the affidavit statement also in Willie's book ? Where would that document be now? Maybe in the hall of fame, or not ? Willie said a lot of things in his book that some people questioned. ( but not me.) :rolleyes:

Dick
 
smashmouth said:
I find it very hard to believe that old time 9 ball players could even pocket a ball on the break 10 times in a row, yet alone running 10+ packs on slow cloth while breaking with their playing cues

Mosconi barely played 9 ball so I doubt he ever ran 14, Earl is the best ever at 9 ball and the most he ever ran (simonis, faster balls, using a break cue) was 11 and those circumstances were suspicious to say the least
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I watched Danny Medina run 14. Does that make him the best?
 
smashmouth said:
I find it very hard to believe that old time 9 ball players could even pocket a ball on the break 10 times in a row, yet alone running 10+ packs on slow cloth while breaking with their playing cues

Mosconi barely played 9 ball so I doubt he ever ran 14, Earl is the best ever at 9 ball and the most he ever ran (simonis, faster balls, using a break cue) was 11 and those circumstances were suspicious to say the least
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What was suspicious about it ? It was for $1 million, and the last 5 or 6 games were recorded. I believe Jay H. was there.
 
punter said:
What was suspicious about it ? It was for $1 million, and the last 5 or 6 games were recorded. I believe Jay H. was there.
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granted it's mostly conjecture on my part, but there we had a scenario where the feat in question had never been accomplished in a major tourney, all of a sudden they offer up a million clams and Earl nails it

hasn't been done since either, and Earl was reported to have been seen tapping balls prior to the match

evidently the insurance carrier had their doubts as well although their true motives for withholding the cash will probably never be known, their stated motives were most likely only expressed to Earl, CJ, and their legal team with the likely provision in the included settlement of a non disclosure clause so anything anyone thinks they know is also likely conjecture at best
 
punter said:
What was suspicious about it ? It was for $1 million, and the last 5 or 6 games were recorded. I believe Jay H. was there.
Click to expand...

I was there, and racked for him the last five games. The FULL story will be in my book. There are some things about this that only CJ, his mom and I know.

P.S. Earl did get a settlement after about a year. Not a million but not bad either.
 
smashmouth said:
on a 9ft? i doubt that
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It's true he alao ran a 13 I believe. I think he ran around 24 racks on the small track in a ring game. Danny Medina was a playa playa in the early 80's.
 
> On the subject of Willie's 526,the table he did it on is on display in a museum in Akron. It's an 8 footer with slow cloth and great big pockets.

For those that think he wasn't a machine at 9 ball,this is a well known story.

Willie and Andrew Ponzi were eating lunch together in a place that had tables,including a 5x10. Some guy walks up and starts woofing about wanting to play Ponzi,who was more interested in eating. Willie finally had enough and got up to play 50 a rack with this guy on the BIG track. Thirteen racks later,dude's backer pulls up,without ever seeing his horse hit a ball. Thirteen racks,practically at will :eek:.

His offense would have been more than enough to keep up with Sigel at his best,but the tactical areas and Mike's break would have been the difference I think.

Mike's break back in the day was a thing to behold. He was hitting them at 26MPH on old-style napped cloth,and dead square,to the point where he squatted it better than anyone else. If you ever seen any of his later matches on Accu-Stat's,such as the Bicycle Club,Rack'Em Up Classic,or the Sands,he was hitting them even better than that in spots,and still squatted it a LOT.

He kicked in a LOT of balls,played amazing safes,and out-thought a whole generation of guys like Efren,Buddy,Steve,Earl,and Nick.

Forget the personalities and the intangibles they cause. If all they do is play,I think Mike wins playing 9-ball,especially in a long set. A race to 7 is within one good inning for BOTH. I'd want to see a LONG set.

Mike would come out closer than you'd think playing a 3000 point 14.1 match too,maybe even winning.

Maybe I'm biased though,I've thought for a long time Mike was the best player EVER,unless we're talking about pure cash play,then I go with Buddy. Tommy D.
 
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