Who would win a race to 7 Mosconi or Sigel in there primes

[jay helfert]

Jay,

You are right on about Nicky being, as I said, a very sharp gambler, and a real moneymaker. He and I became quite well aquainted back in the Johnston City days. If I recall the Mosconi game, as he told it to me, he had a few $$ bet, with a bookie on the side, but, like dinner, with Willie. It was one of the few times he took the heat and went off for a few bucks. He made very few wrong moves. You know Mosconi better than I do. You surely know how he could get under the skin of a real gambler. You can surely be in awe of his skill, but he was NOT "one of us".

Dick

Willie had a "holier than thou" attitude after he became a World Champion. And he had gambled when he was young man. He was wound a little too tight though, and probably would have gone off if someone had gotten him down right. I think he realized that and it was why he gave up gambling, and turned against the hustlers. Fatty told me he beat him a few times when they were much younger, thus all the animosity.

 

[Jimmy M.]

Race to one would be all I'd pay to watch. I did enjoy a thrilling match between Big Cat and Roger last night. I think they raced to 300 games.

Dick

You know, I joke around on here a lot, but let's be serious for a second. In a race to 7, Willie clearly had the nuts. However, if they were racing to 8, Sigel was stealing.

 

[SJDinPHX]

Sunday morning coming down.

You know, I joke around on here a lot, but let's be serious for a second. In a race to 7, Willie clearly had the nuts. However, if they were racing to 8, Sigel was stealing.

JM, Check out 1P.org, I'm on a roll tonight, and you and I are the only ones awake and sober. You probably missed the mini flame between the Beard, the Ghost, Artie B, and yours truly.
Check out the "squeezing thread".

Dick

Woofing on the internet is fun ! (and cheaper)

 

[Ltldebbie]

I'd Bet the House

Who would win a race to 7 Mosconi or Mike Sigel in there primes.
Some of you old timers can shed some light on this. Sigel in his prime smokin cigarettes during the match. Completely cocky with his disco pants on. Ill tell you what though its the most impressive and most dominating play ive seen on a table ever. Mike still has his game I believe and his legend. The IPT players were star struck as most of the young ones had never played this guy. Willie was so down to earth its hard to compare the two.. but who do you all think would win?

OK. I had to post the original question. Mike is exceptional, one of the greats, but I've seen him get beat many times. Infact I've never seen him go home with all the money except on t.v.

If Willie could run 562 I would not ever worry about the subtle nuances of 9
Ball ever outwitting him. It's Willie all the way, bet the house.

I believe I do qualify as an oldtimer so JMO.

 

[pdcue]

As talented as Mosconi was, I would have to go with Sigel (with the admition that I never saw Mosconi in his prime).

Mosconi would be able to run balls, but he wouldn't know the safeties or strategies or the positional routes Sigel does. So if things came up tough, he would certainly be the underdog. The break would be another huge factor.

But this is assuming that in our alternate world where Wille and Mike could match up in their primes, Willie didn't devote himself to 9 ball.

'Mosconi would be able to run balls, but he wouldn't know the safeties or strategies or the positional routes Sigel does'

Whatever led you to that conclusion?

Positional routes - I'm guessing you never saw Mike play 9 ball.

BTW - Mosconi finished high against a field of world class 3C players,
as did Greenleaf. Trust me, they knew the routes.

Dale

 

[pdcue]

Talent is right. And so is class. He had a leadership superstar aura about him that would have been psychologically daunting for any opponent. I heard stories he used to give Jackie Gleason the 6 or six out and rob him back in the 1940s, not that that's necessarily anything. But it's also my understanding that when Willie ran that 526, he didn't miss. He got tired or bored...and walked away from the table. Willie's cue ball control, like Tiger or Phelps, put him in a class by himself. He rarely got out of line with the cue ball. I think if they played many sets over time Willie would probably have prevailed. But Siegel is great too. Willie was flat amazing, even after he was old. It was a thrill to watch him play. I am lucky to have gotten to. And that cue ball...man...scary.

Greg

This is a common misconception - due in no small part to the
fact that Willie told it for years, but he did miss.

Dale

 

[softshot]

'Mosconi would be able to run balls, but he wouldn't know the safeties or strategies or the positional routes Sigel does'

I gotta disagree here.. I'm not a "big kid" I don't personally know anyone involved.. but...

if you can win 15 world championships at straight pool.... you know EVERY position route.. and you know how to stop the ball at any point on that line..

and stop it anywhere on each line each different english creates....

play a safety in 9 ball hide him from one ball....

play a safety in 14.1 you have to hide him from EVERY ball..

which is more difficult?


possition routes?

You have table A with 9 balls on it you have to get through 8 shots and get a line...

table B 14.1 you have to get through 14 shots and still get a leave that can break a rack and then you have to do it again... and again... and again..



but Mike Sigel know all this stuff better than I do..

Mike is one of the greatest 14.1 players ever if he had a chance to play with THE best ever.. I don't think he would be stupid enough to squander that opportunity..

but I'm just a banger from nowhere..

it's all speculation..

 

[SJDinPHX]

This is a common misconception - due in no small part to the
fact that Willie told it for years, but he did miss.

Dale

Absolutely correct, pdcue, The difference between Mosconi, and his peers was, he never gave them a chance to prove, (or disprove) his self proclaimed supriority. He was an exhibition player, and a damn good one. but to say there weren't people in his day (Worst and Lassiter and Balsis come to mind) who might take away his crown, well who would know, he never gave them a shot, except for funsies.

Dick

 

[Fast Lenny]

This is a common misconception - due in no small part to the
fact that Willie told it for years, but he did miss.

Dale

We will never know what happened but I can tell you I spoke with Willies wife Flora in AC about 3 years ago,one of the questions I asked was what happened in that run and she said he got tired and stopped.

 

[softshot]

He was an exhibition player, and a damn good one. but to say there weren't people in his day (Worst and Lassiter and Balsis come to mind) who might take away his crown, well who would know, he never gave them a shot, except for funsies.

Dick

he was an Exhibition player.. AFTER he had a STROKE(the blood clot on the brain kind) and won a tournament AFTER that..

when I read Willie in his prime I read it to mean Before he had a massive brain clot.. that screws up motor skills and concentration..

he kicked the big kids around AFTER that..

do you really think anyone wanted a piece of him BEFORE that?

 

[SJDinPHX]

Talent is right. And so is class. He had a leadership superstar aura about him that would have been psychologically daunting for any opponent. I heard stories he used to give Jackie Gleason the 6 or six out and rob him back in the 1940s, not that that's necessarily anything. But it's also my understanding that when Willie ran that 526, he didn't miss. He got tired or bored...and walked away from the table. Willie's cue ball control, like Tiger or Phelps, put him in a class by himself. He rarely got out of line with the cue ball. I think if they played many sets over time Willie would probably have prevailed. But Siegel is great too. Willie was flat amazing, even after he was old. It was a thrill to watch him play. I am lucky to have gotten to. And that cue ball...man...scary.

Greg

Greg, Not to discredit your observations, but it has been rumored that Mosconi DID NOT run the 526 without a miss, who knows ? Whatever the truth may be he was an autistic savant at pool. However,the much herelded 526 run Willie bragged about for the rest of his life,
was in an exhibition, not in competition. Therefore I must still have more respect for Worst, or Crane , or Balsis, running 150 and out, against strong opponents in REAL competition. Those dream match-ups can never be played. We are dealing with primes in different generation's. So all we can do is voice our opinions. It becomes a moot point.

Sure wish they could be. :wink:

Dick

 

[Fast Lenny]

Greg, Not to discredit your observations, but it has been rumored that Mosconi DID NOT run the 526 without a miss, who knows ? Whatever the truth may be he was an autistic savant at pool. However,the much herelded 526 run Willie bragged about for the rest of his life,
was in an exhibition, not in competition. Therefore I must still have more respect for Worst, or Crane , or Balsis, running 150 and out, against strong opponents in REAL competition. Those dream match-ups can never be played. We are dealing with primes in different generation's. So all we can do is voice our opinions. It becomes a moot point.

Sure wish they could be. :wink:

Dick

I was watching Cranes 150 and out today and he is one of my favorite players of old,just the way he carries himself and his respect for the game and his peers.I hear Crane would gamble,him and Cisero would get down for the cash,anyone know much about this?

 

[SJDinPHX]

he was an Exhibition player.. AFTER he had a STROKE(the blood clot on the brain kind) and won a tournament AFTER that..

when I read Willie in his prime I read it to mean Before he had a massive brain clot.. that screws up motor skills and concentration..

he kicked the big kids around AFTER that..

do you really think anyone wanted a piece of him BEFORE that?

Sorry sir, no disrespect to you or, Willie, but he was an exhibition player long BEFORE he had his stroke. He was a lot like Fat's, if Fat's couldn't outsmart you, he wouldn't play. If you put Willie in a position to lose, even for only pride, he would most times make an excuse and decline. This I have seen, with my own eye's, on more than one occasion. Mosconi was a great player, but the greatest, I doubt it. I'll take Harold Worst. (at least in that time frame.)

Dick

 

[softshot]

Sorry sir, no disrespect to you or, Willie, but he was an exhibition player long BEFORE he had his stroke. He was a lot like Fat's, if Fat's couldn't outsmart you, he wouldn't play. If you put Willie in a position to lose, even for only pride, he would most times make an excuse and decline. This I have seen, with my own eye's, on more than one occasion. Mosconi was a great player, but the greatest, I doubt it. I'll take Harold Worst. (at least in that time frame.)

Dick

the biggest difference.. IMO fats didn't have 15 world championships.. you don't win 15 world titles without being able to play under pressure... you just don't..

name another "exhibition" player with 15 world championships name just 1

 

[SJDinPHX]

the biggest difference.. IMO fats didn't have 15 world championships.. you don't win 15 world titles without being able to play under pressure... you just don't..

name another "exhibition" player with 15 world championships name just 1

Sorry sir, but in those days, a World Championship got you a cup of coffee and a nice trophy. I did not say he couldn't play, I just said he was a bit of a prima donna, egoist who dodged all the big money player's. I'm sorry but in the real world "money" is how you keep score. Apparently we live in two different worlds.

Best Regards,

Dick

 

[softshot]

Sorry sir, but in those days, a World Championship got you a cup of coffee and a nice trophy. I did not say he couldn't play, I just said he was a bit of a prima donna, egoist who dodged all the big money player's. I'm sorry but in the real world "money" is how you keep score.

Dick

and your telling me that none of your top players from that era even played in those tournaments??

of course most did and they all lost to willie...

there are prima donnas in all sports.. and they generally seem to be the best at those sports..

Brett Farve is a prima donna... he is also going to the hall of fame as the best and most durable QB of all time..

you don't get to be the best without an ego...

have you been in 15 world championship matches? how many did YOU win?

I don't care how much money you like to bet...

playing for the right to say you are the best in the world.. and playing it against the best there is... creates pressure far more than your cash set that noone knows about...

and here we are full circle..the gamblers vs the Players..

and round and round she goes.....

 

[SJDinPHX]

and your telling me that none of your top players from that era even played in those tournaments??

of course most did and they all lost to willie...

there are prima donnas in all sports.. and they generally seem to be the best at those sports..

Brett Farve is a prima donna... he is also going to the hall of fame as the best and most durable QB of all time..

you don't get to be the best without an ego...

have you been in 15 world championship matches? how many did YOU win?

I don't care how much money you like to bet...

playing for the right to say you are the best in the world.. and playing it against the best there is... creates pressure far more than your cash set that noone knows about...

and here we are full circle..the gamblers vs the Players..

and round and round she goes.....

Old Buddy, lets just call it a night, and amicably"agree,to disagree". I admire you for sticking to your guns, and I did not mean to besmirch your hero. He was a great champion, but sorry, I just never liked the man. It goes way back.

Goodnight all, Dick

 

[smashmouth]

I find it very hard to believe that old time 9 ball players could even pocket a ball on the break 10 times in a row, yet alone running 10+ packs on slow cloth while breaking with their playing cues

Mosconi barely played 9 ball so I doubt he ever ran 14, Earl is the best ever at 9 ball and the most he ever ran (simonis, faster balls, using a break cue) was 11 and those circumstances were suspicious to say the least

 

[Bigjohn]

Who would win a race to 7 Mosconi or Mike Sigel in there primes.
Some of you old timers can shed some light on this. Sigel in his prime smokin cigarettes during the match. Completely cocky with his disco pants on. Ill tell you what though its the most impressive and most dominating play ive seen on a table ever. Mike still has his game I believe and his legend. The IPT players were star struck as most of the young ones had never played this guy. Willie was so down to earth its hard to compare the two.. but who do you all think would win?

I'll take Sigel simply because Mosconi would have punched him out by the 3rd game and been disqualified.

 

[jay helfert]

Willie did win 15 "World Championships" but seven or eight of them were in long challenge matches against one player. That was the way they did it back then. Someone could challenge the world champion and he had to play a match with them. The winner could call himself the world champion. Of course these were great players he beat in these matches like Crane, Caras and Cranfield. And he did win seven or eight WC against full fields, in round robin style events that lasted weeks.

Willie came out of retirement to play in Fred Whalen's World Championship in 1965. He lost a key match to Cisero and finished second to Balsis in the tourney. He was so mad he took a punch at the promoter Arnie Satin. That was Willie's last hurrah.