Who Would You Vote For-Mosconi OR Fats?

[JMB]

willie

i had the opportunity to observe willie for a solid boring week sometime in the 60s. he was brought to minneapolis by max winter, then one of the owners of the mpls. lakers. they set up a new gold crown in a television studio and he and chris macghean (spelling?) were to make a television pilot. i was selected to be the referee. 100 points of straight pool, with of course willie winning. (pre determined) after hitting balls every night, we then would go to breakfast - at that time I was a low leval pool hustler with stars in my eyes. willis stuck me EVERY night for the meal. My opinion of willie is this - talented CHEAP PRICK. in all of my travels i have never heard a GOOD word about willie mosconi only that he could play great pool under IDEAL conditions. HIS Personality = ZERO

 

[JMB]

more on willie and FATS

in the past I had the PLEASURE of sitting down and talking with Fats on quite a few occasions. ONE on ONE he was a great guy to chew the (fat) with, not the bragging and boisterious model they see or saw on television or at billiard related shows. NICE GUY

 

[chefjeff]

in the past I had the PLEASURE of sitting down and talking with Fats on quite a few occasions. ONE on ONE he was a great guy to chew the (fat) with, not the bragging and boisterious model they see or saw on television or at billiard related shows. NICE GUY

I, for one, would love to hear more of your experiences with both of these men. Do you have any more tidbits? Don't hold back, please.

Jeff Livingston

 

[JustPlay]

1. - This is not a popularity poll!
The question is - Who would be best to promote the game if we could bring only one of them back?

2. - In the next poll (not now), I would like to ask y'all who you THINK would win in a One Pocket match between Fats & - Willie, Ronnie, Cliff, Etc. This hypothetical game would have been played when all players were "At Their Peek" & I'm not guessing, I KNOW!

TY & GL

Fats is the best promoter period. Its pretty sad that since Mosconi and Minnesota Fats period of time that pool hasn't had any real promoters of the game to elevate it at least to the level of _______ (you could fill in the blank). If there was a modern day Minnesota Fats he would win over anyone else...... Fats was a promoter while Mosconi was a pool player, that is the difference between the two...

 

[cut shot]

Ditto that! Very enlightning to hear about them both.

I, for one, would love to hear more of your experiences with both of these men. Do you have any more tidbits? Don't hold back, please.

Jeff Livingston

 

[cueman]

Fats would be the best promoter. He would also have won the one pocket mactch. Most won't agree with me on this one, but I think OHB knows Fats would have won. We are talking peek here. Mosconi even talked about Fats being one of the best at what Willie called "a gamblers game". I think if Mosconi put his heart into learning one pocket like he did straight pool that he would win that match. But just taking everyone at the prime they achieved in that game Fats wins. So now OHB tell us your answer.
Chris
www.hightowercues.com
www.internationalcuemakers.com

 

[OldHasBeen]

Fats Vs. Willie

IF Fats would have played (in his peek & for $) One Pocket with Willie Mosconi, Ronnie Allen, Cliff Joiner, Chris Macghean, Wimpy, Etc., He did & would have gotten the CASH. JUST ASK RONNIE !!!

There were 2 different Fats. The one before the movie & the one after.
Before the movie, he was N.Y. Fats.
After the movie, he was Minnesota Fats.

Before the movie, he was one of the best (if not THE best) Pool Hustlers to ever live. He was always "Betting Higher Than Snow Geese" and driving a new Caddy every year while most of his peers were looking for steakhorses and sleeping in their cars. I was there then and saw it personally. He made his cash by PLAYING & HUSTLEING Banks & One Pocket.
After the movie, he was getting on in years and employed a business manager. He started to capitalize on the fame the movie brought to him and made much more money than before. He once said, "I've made more cash by losing than most good players have while winning". He now made his cash by TALKING ABOUT POOL AND BEING A VERY COLORFUL HUSTLEING PERSONALITY.

When asked about who was better between him & Willie, he said;
"They had one of the greatest actors in the world (Jackie Gleason) playing my part and you know what part Willie Moscoooooooni played?
OUR RACK BOY!

My whole point to this poll is to point out what MIGHT bring pool up to where it should be. Nothing has worked so far and I think we should start selling "THE COLOR OF POOL" !
I know this doesn’t sit very well with the pool-loving purist and I understand that. But what I am trying to get across is that WE HAVE TO SELL POOL, NOT JUST PLAY IT. You can only sell something if someone wants to buy it. If they haven't wanted to buy it by now (and they haven't) we have to give them what they want. SELL the bad guys (Earl ?), SELL the good guys (Nick ?), SELL the great guys (Buddy ?), SELL the international guys (Efren ?) SELL the old guys (Grady ?), SELL the young guys (Justin ?), SELL the hustling guys (Jack C. ?) - Can you just picture Jack C. being interviewed on TV (60 minutes) about the scores? Naturally he would have to be only a shadowed silhouette to hype the mystique and keep his anonymity.
THE BOTTOM LINE IS - SELL, SELL, AND SELL.
And the beautiful part is that we don't have to change anyone or anything. WE ALREADY HAVE WHAT IT TAKES, we just need to SELL what we have.

Fatty was admired & loved by some of the most famous movie stars, heads of states and the general public. (Players or not)
Yes, he was doing it for self promotion and what sports figure isn't UNTIL they have gotten theirs.

The above quotes & opinions are not all from me. They come from some of the most respected authorities and yes, hustlers of the game. Earl Schrieber, Ty Thompson, Cornbread Red, Jersey Red, Squirrel, Weenie Beeny, Cleo Vaughn, Junior Goff, Rags, Jimmy Moore, & many more. I am around a fellow daily (Vernon) who actually was "On The Road" with fats many times. He also has the Rambow cue that Fats played with. His stories about Fats are so entertaining that when he gets going, a crowd gathers at the poolroom. He himself has a "Way With Words" and I'll bet that is one of the reasons Fats took him out. He is supposed to be at the Derby City Classic this year.

Chefjeff just summed it up perfectly in an earlier posting here - "Fats made me want to play pool". Hellooooooo ???

Yes, I would love to see Willie Mosconi play some straight pool at his best again, but I'm a pool player. I would understand the confidence, concentration and consistency it would take to play at that level.
I also realize that I have taken this poll on a Pool Playing (loving) site and that’s not the best place to find out what we need to know to promote our game.
Do you really think Budweiser, Nike, GM, Pepsi and all the other major sponsors are interested in the revenue that the pool PLAYING audience would generate? Do you really think they are targeting the current poker PLAYING audience now or do you think they are going after the general TV audience that watches because of the Hole Card being shown AND THE INTERVIEWS THAT BRINGS THE PLAYERS HISTORY AND PERSONALITY OUT?

I know I’m not going to change the world or anyone’s views on this subject BUT maybe, just maybe some help and encouragement might be given to Grady and the many others who “I Think” are on the right track.

TY & GL

 

[sjm]

Easy question, really. It's Minnesota Fats in a landslide. Mosconi, whose playing credentials are simply amazing, did little to bring a lot of attention to pool. If Minnesota Fats and Jeanette Lee toured the way Grady and Allison Fisher did, it might jump start our wonderful sport. In my lifetime, I feel strongly that no two players have done more to bring positive attention to pool than Fats and Jeanette.

Can we really bring him back, OHB?

 

[JimS]

I think he was full of crap but the general public loved/loves that. Fats would make the best promoter, hands down.

Best one-pocket? How about Jersey Red or Cornbread or Efren.

 

[cueman]

One of the last times I saw Fats was in Nashville at a very nice steak house. He lived in a hotel there and the resturant sent a limo every night to pick him up. He would sit around the bar telling his stories and keeping everyone entertained. Sigel was at his prime then and he was there with several other top players and BCA big wigs. Only us pool enthusiasts knew who the people at that table were. And they paid for their dinner. Fats gets a free limo ride and everything on the house and most everyone in the place knew who he was, from little kids to adults. Our industry sure could use another Fats. OHB, I am glad you brought it to everyones attention how good he actually played one pocket in his prime. Most of us all saw Fats play after his prime and players from my generation say he couldn't play, because that is all they saw. From what I saw in the 1970's way past his prime, he could still cash in a pro tournament, but not win one. That is still pretty impressive.

 

[OldHasBeen]

My Barber of 20 years died so..........

Yesterday, I had to find a new Barber. While getting to know him and telling him about myself and my advertising business, I mentioned that I played Pool for over 25 years to support myself.

You know what the first words out of his mouth were?

"DID YOU EVER PLAY MINNESOTA FATS"?

This is exactly what I'm talking about!

TY & GL

 

[catscradle]

Yesterday, I had to find a new Barber. While getting to know him and telling him about myself and my advertising business, I mentioned that I played Pool for over 25 years to support myself.

You know what the first words out of his mouth were?

"DID YOU EVER PLAY MINNESOTA FATS"?

This is exactly what I'm talking about!

TY & GL

IMHO
It still wouldn't help. Okay Fats was well known maybe even popular, but I don't think for a minute that he put people in the pool rooms. "The Hustler" put people in the pool rooms (and put Fats in the limelight), "TCOM" put people in the pool rooms, but Fats didn't. He may have even drawn a crowd to watch him in an exhibition, but Bill Cosby draws a crowd and the people don't leave and become comedians. You make some good points but without "The Hustler" Fats would be just a footnote in the history of pool and Mosconi would be at least known by regular pool players. Don't forget when you and I were kids Willie Mosconi's name was known in almost every household and nobody ever heard of Fats. I know I knew his name before I ever picked up a stick and absolutely nobody in my family played pool and the nearest pool room was 45 minutes away in Boston.
BTW, I hope I'm wrong and you're right and another Fats comes along.

 

[OldHasBeen]

The "Hustler" was all about Ronnie & Fats.

Without Fats & Ronnie there wouldn't have been a "Hustler" Movie.

TY & GL

 

[JAM]

Minnesota Fats was a hit on TV due to his sense of humor. "The Hustler" was a hit and brought in new interest to the game. Along comes Steve Mitzerak with the Miller beer commercials. Willie Mosconi is what name-brand recognition is all about, and he served the industry well in the autumn of his life. "The Color of Money" was a boost to the industry when it was released in 1986.

The recent Olhausen commercial featuring Johnny Archer blowing off the smoke from his cue stick was GREAT. Omitting his name in the commercial, though, seems a shame. He is currently a bright star in the sport.

When I got interested in football, it was because of Sonny. Ice skating caught my attention because of the Nancy Kerrigan knee-capping incident. Cal Ripkin, Jr. keeps me a diehard Orioles fan, no matter how bad they perform. Even though golf has been a major sports attraction for some time, when Tiger Woods came on the scene, it lured in many more viewers.

I think pool would grow in popularity if it could obtain a new 2005 personality. I'm just not sure of who or what form it should take. It is interesting that the poll results so far on this thread are evenly divided between Willie Mosconi and Rudolph "Minnesota Fats" Wanderone.

JAM

 

[vapoolplayer]

Minnesota Fats was a hit on TV due to his sense of humor. "The Hustler" was a hit and brought in new interest to the game. Along comes Steve Mitzerak with the Miller beer commercials. Willie Mosconi is what name-brand recognition is all about, and he served the industry well in the autumn of his life. "The Color of Money" was a boost to the industry when it was released in 1986.

The recent Olhausen commercial featuring Johnny Archer blowing off the smoke from his cue stick was GREAT. Omitting his name in the commercial, though, seems a shame. He is currently a bright star in the sport.

When I got interested in football, it was because of Sonny. Ice skating caught my attention because of the Nancy Kerrigan knee-capping incident. Cal Ripkin, Jr. keeps me a diehard Orioles fan, no matter how bad they perform. Even though golf has been a major sports attraction for some time, when Tiger Woods came on the scene, it lured in many more viewers.

I think pool would grow in popularity if it could obtain a new 2005 personality. I'm just not sure of who or what form it should take. It is interesting that the poll results so far on this thread are evenly divided between Willie Mosconi and Rudolph "Minnesota Fats" Wanderone.

JAM

i agree, johnny's commercial was good, but they, like you said, need to give him a personality. let him talk, do something, create a personality that people can identify with, thats how you advertise. it should have said something like "this is johnny archer. a 4 time world champion, when it comes to tables, he prefers olhausen professional pool tables. if its enough for a 4 time world champion, its enough for you" or something to that effect or even let johnny say it. point being, give the game a personality. and my answer to oldhasbeen's question is undoubtedly fats. mosconi could play, but in marketing and advertising that doesn't sell, personality sells.


thanks

 

[hax]

It is interesting that the poll results so far on this thread are evenly divided between Willie Mosconi and Rudolph "Minnesota Fats" Wanderone.

It's not really a surprise to me. You need different facets to appeal to different people. You can't stick it all on a single person and try to have that person embody the sport. You need to appeal to draw in, then you need to appeal to hold them. Golf and tennis has lots of that. Lots of different stars that people can associate with. Some people love the quiet talent, Vijay Singh for example or Pete Sampras. Some people love the passion of a Tiger Woods, a Jimmy Conners, or a John McEnroe. What some people like, others are turned off by, McEnroe's infamous attitude on and off court. I know people that hate John McEnroe, for whatever reason. The word obnoxious, seems to come up often.

The thing with having a mouth, is you need to have the talent to go with it, or you're just a blowhard. With Fats, you may end up turning people away once they realize he wasn't that good because he didn't live up to their expectations. Different strokes for different folks.

One thing that is for certain, there are multiple problems to solve. Attracting the audience, keeping the audience, and getting the audience to participate in the sport. The only thing I don't want to see, is pool approaching the color of the NBA. Boy, what a bunch of crybabies. You suck...no you...I'm going to the press...waah, my toe....can't feed my family on $21 million...he hogs the ball...I'm the star, not you.

"DID YOU EVER PLAY MINNESOTA FATS"?

Funny, I had a similar conversation recently but with Willie Mosconi being named. "Have you heard of Willie Mosconi?" someone asked me. After the conversation started to dwindle, he asked "Have you heard of this fat guy?...Fat something, or something fat, I can't remember his name."

1. - This is not a popularity poll!

Actually, it is. Popularity deals with the general public and the target's appeal or approval, and it is the popular star that people will hear about. Your barber quote fits that exactly. With popularity comes the power to influence. You can't be unpopular and try to bring in viewership, it just won't work. Whether one achieves the popularity by quiet prowess or by quips and one liners, that's a different matter. How that is perceived is yet another matter, you're either famous or infamous.

 

[Celtic]

In today's world of TV, video, the internet, and other forms of media Fat's would be hopeless since people would either A) see him shoot and know he is a blowhard who could take the 7 from Archer and get owned or B) he would need to avoid the TV and remain incognitto like Bucktooth who is a known player only deep in the pool circle and has done little to nothing to help this sport.

This being said it is obvious Mosconi would be the proper choice as the guy was actually great and if he came back in his prime it would be like what Tiger did for Golf when Mosconi took the stage by dominating the pool scene.

 

[catscradle]

Yesterday, I had to find a new Barber. While getting to know him and telling him about myself and my advertising business, I mentioned that I played Pool for over 25 years to support myself.

You know what the first words out of his mouth were?

"DID YOU EVER PLAY MINNESOTA FATS"?

This is exactly what I'm talking about!

TY & GL

To bolster your argument, even though I voted Willie, I got an email from a friend yesterday among other things she said:
"... I hope life is treating you great. Are you still Minnesota Fats? ..."

 

[catscradle]

... Ice skating caught my attention because of the Nancy Kerrigan knee-capping incident...
JAM

Well obviously Earl has to go off sometime and kneecap Efren.

 

[JAM]

Well obviously Earl has to go off sometime and kneecap Efren.

The international controversy that ensued after Tanya and Company attempting to eliminate her main competition brought ice-skating to a new level. Tickets were sold out at ice-skating exhibitions thereafter.

Pool needs an agent of change. Whether it is in the form of a Mosconi- or Minnesota Fats-like image, I'm not so sure. This is 2005, and things are different now than then.

One thing for sure, if the governing body of men's professional pool doesn't step up to the plate soon, the ladies will surpass them, as they are doing quite well right now, thanks to the WPBA.

At the UPA-sanctioned event in Atlanta, Johnny Archer was forfeited, due to his late arrival. I heard Johnny's version of the story, and I think he got a bum deal. Having said that, though, I applaud the UPA for at least attempting to follow the rules set forth by their organization and show NO FAVORITISM. I just read that Danny Harriman conceded his match at the Bicycle event in L.A., and the UPA disqualified him for the tournament, and he won't be allowed to play in the next event. This shows no favoritism. I do believe they are making huge strides as of late and hope they continue. A fair and equitable ranking system would be an excellent start.

If the fellows don't watch out, the new Pool Agent of Change, due to the increasing popularity of women's pool, won't be a woofer like Fats or a squeaky-clean Mosconi. I think the WPBA is on the right track, and again, I really do like their recent new-and-improved coverage on TV now.

JAM