Who's the best Pinoy after Bata Reyes?
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sjm said:
You have a valid point, and I must say that it's a question that perhaps cannot be settled, inasmuch as we are dealing with two different competitive arenas. I readily concede Efren's superiority in the overall category. When it comes to the rotation games however, we are left at an impasse over the age-old question: Who's the better player? The one who wins the tournaments or the one who comes in and robs him afterwards? I guess my opinion is obvious, I lean with player who will come out standing (and flush) after a long session.
I strongly suspect that it is just a matter of Orcullo learning to come with it NOW, as you must in a tournament, rather than relying on the fact that the overall strength of game will catch up with the opponent in the long run. When that happens, I don't think there will be any doubt as to who is the best nine-ball player out of the Phillipines. After all, nine-ball has never been Efren's strongest game due to his break. When Efren was at his peak Archer was still the better nine-ball player, by most accounts. Yet, not too many people, as far as I know, have ever said that Archer or anybody else was a better all-around player than the Magician
In the final analysis, the devil lies in the details!
Peace,
VIProfessor
P.S.--IMHO, being "the money king" of the Phillipines is in fact a tremendous achievement, particularly when considering the overall strength of the top Filipino players!
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linds said:rustin abit but still capable...
andam
kiamko
lining
cuartero
calasang
upcomming (3G)
about a dozen 12-15y/o soon on WPC'07
I heard that there are a bunch of 12-15 y/o kids in the Phillipines that run racks of 15ball rotation like nothing. Its great that the WPC is gonna be there for hopefully more than just two years, it will be great to see some of these young talents like De Luna get more exposure.
And has anyone clocked De Luna's break with a radar gun yet???? That kid smashes the rack so hard it's ridiculous!!!
Great assessment! I totally agree with you and only time will tell, so let the show begin!ginsu said:
linds said:rustin abit but still capable...
andam
kiamko
lining
cuartero
calasang
upcomming (3G)
about a dozen 12-15y/o soon on WPC'07
Hey if you're throwing them in then I might as well mention Esquillo, del Rosario, Acaba, Palce (recent winner of the Manny Pacquiao 10-Ball) and Alpajora. Alpajora has been winning his fair share recently in the US West Coast and he's not even considered a third-tier player here.
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For what't it worth, the third generation of Filipino invaders are going to be scary, I think.
I saw some of these shortstops at a local hall in Manila. Smokey place where kids were playing money ball 10-ball. Saw two up and comers shot lights out with a ton of people around them betting per game. People were talking and smoking while the two went at it. It didn't bother them as long as they had room to shoot.
I saw some of these shortstops at a local hall in Manila. Smokey place where kids were playing money ball 10-ball. Saw two up and comers shot lights out with a ton of people around them betting per game. People were talking and smoking while the two went at it. It didn't bother them as long as they had room to shoot.
cuetch's friend'd assessment sound spot on
Also, I made some inquiries recently about Orcullo's status as Money King and I was told that he will NEVER play Reyes without a spot in a long match for big stakes, and the ONLY guy that will is Alcano. Again, could be false info but sounds accurate to me.
You guys need to seriously ease up on the snooker/3c praise also, they're no more world class than the top snooker guys are at nine ball.
Also, I made some inquiries recently about Orcullo's status as Money King and I was told that he will NEVER play Reyes without a spot in a long match for big stakes, and the ONLY guy that will is Alcano. Again, could be false info but sounds accurate to me.
You guys need to seriously ease up on the snooker/3c praise also, they're no more world class than the top snooker guys are at nine ball.
VIProfessor said:
Solid post, VIP, and you've framed the debate well., though I'd like to add one thing. To succeed at the top level, you need not just learn to come with it NOW, but you need to know how to come with it NOW against a variety of opponents and styles, against an ever changing array of firepower coming at you. This, I believe, is one of the things that makes winning tournaments so difficult. Knocking off champion after champion is a very tall order, and that's why so few are up to the challenge.
For example, in 1995, Parica told me that he felt Bustamante would, at some point, begin to dominate the tournament scene. But here we are in 2007, and missing from Bustamante's resume are 1) a Derby City title, 2) a BCA Open title, 3) a WPC title, and 4) a US Open title, the four titles that many here on the forum (based on the many threads on the subject) consider pool's four major titles. Surely, Orcullo is no greater a prospect than Bustamante was, so I think we should be reserved about the undeniably gifted Orcullo's prospects on the tournament scene. I wish him well, and look forward to seeing how he fares.
Orcullo imo never seems to get very comfy in tourney settings, in the World's against efren he looked completely out of it, he looked AMAZING in the IPT
in victory but was the total opposite in defeat.
I still think he'll overcome this and become the world's most dominant tourney player, but then again, Efren just doesn't seem to want to relinquish that title and since his eye surgery his record is ridiculous.
Efren says his best days are behind him but that's maybe just long shots only imo, he is modest, from what I've seen he is STILL IMPROVING, it's absolutley ridiculous!
in victory but was the total opposite in defeat.
I still think he'll overcome this and become the world's most dominant tourney player, but then again, Efren just doesn't seem to want to relinquish that title and since his eye surgery his record is ridiculous.
Efren says his best days are behind him but that's maybe just long shots only imo, he is modest, from what I've seen he is STILL IMPROVING, it's absolutley ridiculous!
efrensfans
Registered
well efren is the greatest 8 ball, one poc(2004 2005 2006 2007 derby city classic one poc winner oh my god!),and rotation player ..
in 9 ball , I think he is in top three too(the top three i think is earl ,ralf
and efren)
so..my opinion is that nobody can reach efren,s greatest ,of course
no mention to any Filipinos..
in 9 ball , I think he is in top three too(the top three i think is earl ,ralf
and efren)
so..my opinion is that nobody can reach efren,s greatest ,of course
no mention to any Filipinos..
Next to Efren
Next to Efren I would say:
1. Alex - 27 year old and counting... main Achievement are WPC and U.S. OPEN which reyes won his first US open in 1994 and WPC in 1999. If Alex focus on playing pool rather than Poker or Casino he will achieve more tournament.
2. Manalo - due to recent shows in the major tournament like IPT. As we all know Manalo started playing 9 ball recently. Most of his games was snooker
3. Alcano - Recent achievement 2006 WPC champion remember its a prestigious tournament to win.
4. Busta - An Excellent player that never won a major tournament. My respect still on Busta.
5. Orcollo - King of Money game in the Phil doesn't mean you will get the respect from the Pro like Archer, Hoffman, Ralf this people will respect you if you are winning big tournaments ...money game will not bring you to HALL OF FAME.
6 Parica - The leader of US domination. My respect still on Amang
Next to Efren I would say:
1. Alex - 27 year old and counting... main Achievement are WPC and U.S. OPEN which reyes won his first US open in 1994 and WPC in 1999. If Alex focus on playing pool rather than Poker or Casino he will achieve more tournament.
2. Manalo - due to recent shows in the major tournament like IPT. As we all know Manalo started playing 9 ball recently. Most of his games was snooker
3. Alcano - Recent achievement 2006 WPC champion remember its a prestigious tournament to win.
4. Busta - An Excellent player that never won a major tournament. My respect still on Busta.
5. Orcollo - King of Money game in the Phil doesn't mean you will get the respect from the Pro like Archer, Hoffman, Ralf this people will respect you if you are winning big tournaments ...money game will not bring you to HALL OF FAME.
6 Parica - The leader of US domination. My respect still on Amang
When I was at the US Open in September I watched Schmidt beat Alcano. After the match heard Schmidt say that he was scared to death of Alcano. Granted he was being modest.
Schmidt went on to say that there wasnt a person in the tournament (US Open) that could beat Alcano for the cash. Efren, Orcullo and Busta were not there but that still says a whole lot about the respect that Alcano has earned.
Schmidt went on to say that there wasnt a person in the tournament (US Open) that could beat Alcano for the cash. Efren, Orcullo and Busta were not there but that still says a whole lot about the respect that Alcano has earned.
I agree Orcullo is just amazing to watch. It would be hard for me to bet against Reyes, but if I did I would think Orcullo would be the one I'd feel most confident with.His tournments playing skills are amazing ,but his money game playing skills are unblievable.By no means is Manalo not a good solid bet also,I've just never had a chance to see him play in money games only in tournment play which he can for sure hold his own.
VIProfessor said:
Archer was the better tournament 9ball player than Efren when some might say Efren was at his 'peak', which was the early-mid 90's. Archer really did have Efren's number during those times in tournaments. I've got like 6 different Accustats tapes of Archer beating Efren, both of them playing in the mid-high .900's in Accustats ratings. Others say Efren was at his peak when he was in his 20's, so who knows. All I know is that Efren has withstood the test of time better than any player in the history of this game, to be at his age and still be the most feared player in the world. For him to be able to stay up for hours on end and gamble the whole night, then win the tournament the following day, countless times, that is tremendous.
sjm said:
In fairness to Dennis Orcullo not winning any international tournaments, you need to understand how hard it is for a poor man in a 3rd world country to get a "player's visa." In fact, he was denied 3-times by US Embassy when he applied for it that was before the IPT North American Championship.
Santos Sambajon has more big titles than Alcano and Orcullo combine, but no one will say that Santos is better than those 2.
I take that back...
Just by looking at Dennis Orcullo's AZ winning last year. It says it all considering 2006 is the his first international campaign.
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The Beginner said:Next to Efren I would say:
1. Alex - 27 year old and counting... main Achievement are WPC and U.S. OPEN which reyes won his first US open in 1994 and WPC in 1999. If Alex focus on playing pool rather than Poker or Casino he will achieve more tournament.
2. Manalo - due to recent shows in the major tournament like IPT. As we all know Manalo started playing 9 ball recently. Most of his games was snooker
3. Alcano - Recent achievement 2006 WPC champion remember its a prestigious tournament to win.
4. Busta - An Excellent player that never won a major tournament. My respect still on Busta.
5. Orcollo - King of Money game in the Phil doesn't mean you will get the respect from the Pro like Archer, Hoffman, Ralf this people will respect you if you are winning big tournaments ...money game will not bring you to HALL OF FAME.
6 Parica - The leader of US domination. My respect still on Amang
If style can make a player then Alcano is the succesor. According to Efren, Ronato plays pool like him and Bustamante.
linds said:rustin abit but still capable...
andam
kiamko
lining
cuartero
calasang
upcomming (3G)
about a dozen 12-15y/o soon on WPC'07
Andam is on the downslide, with no end in sight. Lining's been on the outside
looking in for as long as I can remember. Warren Kiamco needs to play with
more consistency. Elvis Calasang is a nervous wreck, specially if he's under
the spotlight and with cameras all around, but when he's on, he can shoot
lights out with the best of them. Allan Cuartero tends to rush his shots, I've
seen him shoot and pray a lot of times. But pound for pound, he's my man.
Standing a shade under 5 feet (4'10"-4'-11"?) and weighing under a hundred
pounds but breaks like De Luna or Busti, he gets my nod...
Yeah, whatever happened to Andam? He was considered Efren Reyes of Southern Philippines.