Whos the best playing instructor?

Roger Long said:
backplaying: Are you an A player? If not, how would you know that you "have seen many A players that didn't play the correct pattern on many shots?" And if you are an A player, what makes you think that those other A players should have played the same patterns as yourself? If there is such a thing as "correct" patterns for all players and all games, then either those A players weren't real A players to begin with, or you mistakenly identified them as such.

Who sets the guidelines in defining players as A, B, C, or D; plus, all of the subdivisions contained therein? Our sport has never had a unified organization that can do all that, because all people involved cannot agree on the definitions to be used. So how is it that we are all supposed to be able to define who is qualified to teach who, what? How are we supposed to be able to identify the best instructor, the best player, the best instructor/player? Hold a tournament? Yeah, that should settle it. :rolleyes:

Roger
Click to expand...
I don't play at a level I use to play, I'm getting close to 60, but I would consider myself to be a high level A player or AA if I'm playing alot on a barbox. I played on the road in the 70's and 80's. The point I was making is what seperates a weak A player from making a jump can be his pattern play, or just not getting close enough to the balls.
There are things that can only be taught by someone who knows how to do it themselfs. How could I teach something I didn't know? What speed of pool did you play at your best?
 
backplaying said:
I don't play at a level I use to play, I'm getting close to 60, but I would consider myself to be a high level A player or AA if I'm playing alot on a barbox. I played on the road in the 70's and 80's. The point I was making is what seperates a weak A player from making a jump can be his pattern play, or just not getting close enough to the balls.
There are things that can only be taught by someone who knows how to do it themselfs. How could I teach something I didn't know? What speed of pool did you play at your best?
Click to expand...

What separates the better players is consistency, cb control, and mental attitude. First two can be taught quite readily. Third can be taught over time.
 
backplaying said:
Can you name any golf instructors that didn't play atleast scratch golf? I would bet there are none that averaged shooting in the 90's!
Click to expand...

Can you name 5 top 50 rated instructors that were former PGA Tour Players? What's a scratch golfer mean? A scratch golfer isn't close to being equivalent to the shortstop level in pool. Scratch golfer on most courses is like an APA 7.

Here's the more relevant question. Most consider Butch Harmon and Hank Haney the top two instructors in the USA, I doubt anyone will argue they're clearly top 10. Neither of them, on their best day, could touch Tiger Woods on his worst. Yet Tiger has spent big money to get instruction from both.
 
Basball managers without any major league experience:

Joe Maddon
Jack McKeon
Cal RIpken, Sr.
Jim Leyland
Jim Rigglemen

Earl Weaver - Baseball HOF
Joe McCarthy - Baseball HOF

There are MANY more but here are some of the more prominent ones....
 
peteypooldude said:
CJ Would be considered instructor/player.
My money is on CJ, unless he is over qualified. I would think Gene would get in the box. Theses are 2 monster player/instructors
Click to expand...

I believe what CJ is telling you is he is the best player instructor"-)
 
backplaying said:
I don't play at a level I use to play, I'm getting close to 60, but I would consider myself to be a high level A player or AA if I'm playing alot on a barbox. I played on the road in the 70's and 80's. The point I was making is what seperates a weak A player from making a jump can be his pattern play, or just not getting close enough to the balls.
There are things that can only be taught by someone who knows how to do it themselfs. How could I teach something I didn't know? What speed of pool did you play at your best?
Click to expand...

According to CJ, I'm just a weak C or B player. My high run is only 12 racks on a barbox. I say only, because the guy unscrewed. Who knows, I might have run more.??

That said, if someone is an A player, there is nothing wrong with their pattern play. You must be very narrowminded if you honestly believe there is only one correct pattern to run a rack. Each person will run a rack according to his/her strengths in position play.

Having been "up there", I can guarantee you that the biggest thing that separates B players from A and up is your basic fundamentals. Consistency. Any B player is capable of making any shot on the table that any A or above is going to go for. They are still B's because they don't have the consistent fundamentals to pocket consistently, and they don't have the cb control of the better players for the same reason. After that, it is all in the head. Anyone that really wants to, and has the time and proper training, can achieve A level.
 
markgw said:
I believe what CJ is telling you is he is the best player instructor"-)
Click to expand...

He may be the best player that instructs, but as an instructor he is so far down the list that he's not in the running for anything. I say that from watching his DVD, and seeing him on here.

And, that's not a slam against him at all. He just has a LONG ways to go as an instructor.
 
Neil said:
According to CJ, I'm just a weak C or B player. My high run is only 12 racks on a barbox. I say only, because the guy unscrewed. Who knows, I might have run more.??

That said, if someone is an A player, there is nothing wrong with their pattern play. You must be very narrowminded if you honestly believe there is only one correct pattern to run a rack. Each person will run a rack according to his/her strengths in position play.

Having been "up there", I can guarantee you that the biggest thing that separates B players from A and up is your basic fundamentals. Consistency. Any B player is capable of making any shot on the table that any A or above is going to go for. They are still B's because they don't have the consistent fundamentals to pocket consistently, and they don't have the cb control of the better players for the same reason. After that, it is all in the head. Anyone that really wants to, and has the time and proper training, can achieve A level.
Click to expand...


Tap, tap,tap... that about sums it up.
 
nobcitypool said:
Can you name 5 top 50 rated instructors that were former PGA Tour Players? What's a scratch golfer mean? A scratch golfer isn't close to being equivalent to the shortstop level in pool. Scratch golfer on most courses is like an APA 7.

Here's the more relevant question. Most consider Butch Harmon and Hank Haney the top two instructors in the USA, I doubt anyone will argue they're clearly top 10. Neither of them, on their best day, could touch Tiger Woods on his worst. Yet Tiger has spent big money to get instruction from both.
Click to expand...

For some strange reason, he thinks that being able to do something equates to knowing what you are doing. I'm sure he walks quite well, I would love to hear him explain how to walk just 4 steps.:wink:
 
Neil said:
According to CJ, I'm just a weak C or B player. My high run is only 12 racks on a barbox. I say only, because the guy unscrewed. Who knows, I might have run more.??

That said, if someone is an A player, there is nothing wrong with their pattern play. You must be very narrowminded if you honestly believe there is only one correct pattern to run a rack. Each person will run a rack according to his/her strengths in position play.

Having been "up there", I can guarantee you that the biggest thing that separates B players from A and up is your basic fundamentals. Consistency. Any B player is capable of making any shot on the table that any A or above is going to go for. They are still B's because they don't have the consistent fundamentals to pocket consistently, and they don't have the cb control of the better players for the same reason. After that, it is all in the head. Anyone that really wants to, and has the time and proper training, can achieve A level.
Click to expand...

Wrong, not anyone can become a A player or better reguardless of lessons from any instructor. I know many don't want to believe that, but thats how it is. I have known people who have taken many lessons, and played pool for 40 years and never played better than a B level player. I know its in the best interest of paid instuctors to spew that propaganda though! Its also the reason these same so-called instructors see any pro player as a threat to them and attack him. Its the very reason you don't see many pro's on this site.
 
backplaying said:
Wrong, not anyone can become a A player or better reguardless of lessons from any instructor. I know many don't want to believe that, but thats how it is. I have known people who have taken many lessons, and played pool for 40 years and never played better than a B level player. I know its in the best interest of paid instuctors to spew that propaganda though! Its also the reason these same so-called instructors see any pro player as a threat to them and attack him. Its the very reason you don't see many pro's on this site.
Click to expand...



This might be true in your World. I'm beginning to think that you are a little "sick".

randyg
 
backplaying said:
Wrong, not anyone can become a A player or better reguardless of lessons from any instructor. I know many don't want to believe that, but thats how it is. I have known people who have taken many lessons, and played pool for 40 years and never played better than a B level player. I know its in the best interest of paid instuctors to spew that propaganda though! Its also the reason these same so-called instructors see any pro player as a threat to them and attack him. Its the very reason you don't see many pro's on this site.
Click to expand...

Just in case you haven't figured it out yet, lessons from anyone are no magic pill. Lessons only give the knowledge, it's up to the student to utilize that knowledge. Most people, after paying good money for a lesson, are right back to what they were doing before the lesson within a week, and then want to blame the lesson for not improving when they didn't bother to change a thing themselves.
 
backplaying said:
Do you have proof of this? I thought both were good players when they were young.
Click to expand...

Penick started as a caddy at age 8. At age 13 he was assistant pro at the club he taught at. When he graduated high school, he became head pro. He spent his lifetime teaching golf.
 
backplaying said:
Wrong, not anyone can become a A player or better reguardless of lessons from any instructor. I know many don't want to believe that, but thats how it is. I have known people who have taken many lessons, and played pool for 40 years and never played better than a B level player. I know its in the best interest of paid instuctors to spew that propaganda though! Its also the reason these same so-called instructors see any pro player as a threat to them and attack him. Its the very reason you don't see many pro's on this site.
Click to expand...

Just in case you missed it, most of the people "attacking" CJ are not even instructors. But, I guess it's easier for you and others to blame it on instructors and not even look at what they are actually saying. If you honestly think CJ was giving out great material in a clear concise way that hasn't been presented before, you don't know a thing about pool instruction.
 
backplaying said:
Do you have proof of this? I thought both were good players when they were young.
Click to expand...

You thought? I was confused, it appeared that CJ was doing your thinking for you.

It is unclear whether Penick was a "good" player or not. It is clear he had no significant success as a player. He was however one of the greatest teachers of the game, particularly the mental side of the equation. He was well ahead of his time.

Grout on the other hand did play on the PGA tour for quite some time. He never won a tournament however, I believe his best finish was 8th. Somehow or another though, despite that lack of Championship success, he managed to be the one and only coach for Jack Nicklaus. Difficult to imagine how he taught Nicklaus to win 18 Majors when he never won a single event himself.

Butch Harmon did in fact play on the PGA Tour for one year. He somehow managed to parlay that minimal amount of high level success into being considered by most the number 1 Golf Instructor in the USA today. He has coached many notable players including Greg Norman, Tiger Woods and I believe, Phil Mickelson.

It appears that Hank Haney never played on the PGA Tour yet again managed to become one of the top 5 Instructors. He also coached Tiger Woods.

Despite your "thoughts" otherwise, it would appear the vast majority of professional level coaches, in most all sports, were not Super Stars in that sport.

Many would argue that Bill Belichick is the best coach in the NFL. His playing career peaked at a small college in Connecticut. By your way of "thinking", he should be coaching a high school team in Podunk, PA. Fortunately for Patriots fans, he and their owner fail to subscribe to your way of thinking.

Thanks for your "thoughts".
 
backplaying said:
I don't play at a level I use to play, I'm getting close to 60, but I would consider myself to be a high level A player or AA if I'm playing alot on a barbox. I played on the road in the 70's and 80's. The point I was making is what seperates a weak A player from making a jump can be his pattern play, or just not getting close enough to the balls.
There are things that can only be taught by someone who knows how to do it themselfs. How could I teach something I didn't know? What speed of pool did you play at your best?
Click to expand...

backplaying: You say you don't play at the level you use to play because you're close to 60. Well, I'm close to 62 and I think I may now be playing some of the best pool of my life. And the reason I think that is so is because I'm giving more lessons now than I have at any other time in my life. By doing this, I'm kept grounded in the fundamentals all the time. Because I am constantly telling my students to remember to do four fundamental things on each and every shot, I am constantly reminded myself to do those same four fundamental things. And because I am able to detect mechanical anomalies in my students that are preventing them from executing any of those four fundamental things consistently, I have become accutely aware when mechanical anomalies creep into my own stroke. Also, because I have to constantly be researching and upgrading my knowledge of all subjects in order that I can demonstrate the necessary shots to my students on the first or second attempt, my own game becomes all the more sharp with fewer hours of actual practice time having to be put in.

But you asked, what level IS my best level? I really don't know. As I stated earlier, no clear skill level definitions have ever been established, so I don't think it's possible to put a rating on me (or anyone else, for that matter). Have I played professionally? No, but I've played in a lot of tournaments with "professionals" (quotation marks because no one has ever clearly defined what constitutes a professional, either).

Can I instruct? Absolutely! I especially enjoy working with novice and intermediate players because their heads are not already filled with a lot of confusing and conflicting information that has been handed out by other well-meaning, but poorly-expressed "instructors." But that's not to mean I can't help advanced players when the need arises. For example: I recently got into a discussion with one of our local advanced players who was dealing with an ongoing problem on the pool table. (Now this is a guy who has taken lessons from every instructor and every pro that has come through town, plus buys every book and DVD that comes down the pike.) After a brief explanation and demonstration of the physics involved in this person's quandary, we had the problem solved, whereupon he exclaimed, "Wow, I just learned more in five minutes that I did in four hours with (a master instructor)."

I don't mean to be heaping grief on you, backplaying. You seem to be getting enough of that from a few others here. I do understand your skepticism when it comes to the knowledge of "unproven" instructors, but I also hope you will come to understand that there really are a lot of very knowledgeable people out there, even though they have chosen to not persue personal glory on the green felt.

Roger
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top