Why are professional players broke?

[JB Cases]

Forget about tournaments and their lack of deep payouts (and just plain lack of payouts).

My question is why are professional players always broke? They have so much talent and ability it seems to me that they could be doing something with that talent and ability in addition to playing in professional events.

Let's assume that professional events are a net money loser for all but a handful of players.

If you were a top pro, say top 20, and you for whatever reason could not find sponsors to foot the bill for your tournament expenses around the world what would you do with your pool knowledge and ability to earn enough money to live comfortably and pay for your tournaments?

I think by definition a professional is one who earns a living plying a trade.

We know that Mosconi was paid by Brunswick and other companies to tour the country giving exhibitions. At one time Ralph Greenleaf had a broadway show and supposedly made $2000 a WEEK in the 20s.

I don't know how well the trick shot guys are doing but I seem to remember at one time Mike Massey quoted me a price of $1500 a day plus expenses to come in and do an exhibition.

I know Scott Lee is on the road constantly doing shows and clinics.

I know that a player I can (could) beat pretty consistently was getting gigs doing corporate events at a couple thousand a night.

So are there really other avenues besides sponsorships, tournaments and "gambling" to make money as a professional pool player?

The obvious ones are:

Exhibitions
Teaching
House Pro Job
Videos
Books
Product Sales (Nick Varner Cues, Mizerak, etc..)

If you are a professional pool player should you be doing all or some of these things?

How lucrative can they possibly be?

How "low" would you go to make good money? Say if someone wanted to pay you $100,000 a year to travel the country and do a series of beat the champ style exhibitions in bars and pool rooms where the guy who beats you gets a shot of Jack or some kind of promo thingy?

Last question; Is there any hope really for the professional pool player to ever just be a player, getting paid decent money to run around the world and compete for our entertainment?

 

[zerowins]

Last question; Is there any hope really for the professional pool player to ever just be a player, getting paid decent money to run around the world and compete for our entertainment?

There is always hope but that's about all there is in the opportunity department these days for pro pool players. The billiards market is soo saturated that it is almost impossible to consistently make a decent living in any aspect of this sport at the current time.

 

[Falcon Eddie]

These examples

Exhibitions
Teaching
House Pro Job
Videos
Books
Product Sales (Nick Varner Cues, Mizerak, etc..)

require more than the obvious . Sales and Marketing are very expensive and if you are targeting the small niche of pool players ...most of them are broke too. Selling books , Borders is going out of business..why ? Maybe because paper is dead. People go -on-line to read , or kindle , i-pads. ect.
Teaching, most already do this and again most regular players or even someone really wanting to excel would not be long term in funds . Also there won't be long lines, appointment book near empty.
House Pro...waiting waiting ...gone.
Until spectator seats are required this is one sport that will always be lacking in revenue. For the Pro and room owner.
I could be wrong but product sales with Walmart type outfits getting into products would be death by installment.
I love this sport and I know many pros that make a living doing other things some cue repair , table re-covering . It keeps them close to what they love to do. Lets face it ,players want to play ...no money in that.

 

[Falcon Eddie]

Oh I was just informed by a pro (friend) that on his way back from Georgia last week-end stopped in Jacksonville for a tournament ..$10.00 entry fee..55 players showed up full of top pros !!! $300.00 for first !! Sad but had to laugh ..as they all did. Finding themselves in a $ 10.00 tournament.

 

[mattb]

Broke

How many just can't manage money? How many win some just to blow it on their next gambling adventure, breaking their pocketbook, and thus restarting the cycle? There are some that have explored these avenues and do make good with their talents and can balance a checkbook, but due to the nature of this game we never hear about them. We would rather hear about a player that sold his sole to make a twice across side than one who thanks God for the talent he has.
The Billiards industry has no go to authority (look at the NBA, NFL, etc). the bodies out there nip and bite for their turf. Their little piece of ground. Without unity there will never be a strong tour and without there will never be large and consistent pay offs.
If the players could be unified under one name, the looks cleaned up for the masses ( a lot of sports require dress afire for interviews), have a management team that preferably knows nothing about pool but more about business, it might be a good start.

 

[Scaramouche]

Until snooker hit the big time, the main financial payoff from winning a major titile wasn't the prize money but the name recognition gained. This would increase the fees that could be earned from exhibitions.

From the always enlightening Internet:
http://www.ehow.com/how_4425594_become-professional-billiards-player-.html

Be colorful and persistent. Many professional billiards players have unique styles as players and people in general. This will allow the player to stand out and win notoriety in the billiards community

Some female players know that successfully marketing themselves does not necessarily correlate with crushing opponents.

Mike Massey markets himself; the vests, the cowboy boots, the singing, the patter.

Put Strickland in the subject of a thread and watch views and comments skyrocket.

Many American players come across as inarticulate slobs who think the world owes them a living. A strange attitude. If you can't make a living at something, you don't have a profession, you have a hobby.

 

[Buckzapper]

Remember the tournament in Vegas when all the players bet big on Mike Lebron and he won? Pool players will dump for the cash or do any number of things to win. I have seen rules change in the middle of a tournament and the finals re-evaluated to decided should it be two sets for true double elimination, or one set? I have seen a seeded draw too, so top pros won't draw each other. I take my chance on who I draw and so should they. I see temper tantrums, sharking, throwing cues and chalk and if it's a real good player...."Oh he'll calm down, just ignore it." Sportsman like conduct is a thing of the past. Who wants their company's face to be a part of that? They needed to clean their act up many years ago. It's to bad some of the newer players still hold onto those old player habits of "Ahhh yes, cash in my pocket." (I'll be gone from this town tomorrow) mentality.

 

[PoolSharkAllen]

How many just can't manage money? How many win some just to blow it on their next gambling adventure, breaking their pocketbook, and thus restarting the cycle?

This post really cannot be understated.

Gambling is a zero-sum game. For every player who made $1000 (or whatever the bet was), someone lost $1000 and now needs to make it up just to break even. So unless that player is on top of the food chain, this surely isn't the path to riches for most players.

 

[TX Poolnut]

PoolSharkAllen and I think alike apparently.

 

[macguy]

Forget about tournaments and their lack of deep payouts (and just plain lack of payouts).

My question is why are professional players always broke? They have so much talent and ability it seems to me that they could be doing something with that talent and ability in addition to playing in professional events.

Let's assume that professional events are a net money loser for all but a handful of players.

If you were a top pro, say top 20, and you for whatever reason could not find sponsors to foot the bill for your tournament expenses around the world what would you do with your pool knowledge and ability to earn enough money to live comfortably and pay for your tournaments?

I think by definition a professional is one who earns a living plying a trade.

We know that Mosconi was paid by Brunswick and other companies to tour the country giving exhibitions. At one time Ralph Greenleaf had a broadway show and supposedly made $2000 a WEEK in the 20s.

I don't know how well the trick shot guys are doing but I seem to remember at one time Mike Massey quoted me a price of $1500 a day plus expenses to come in and do an exhibition.

I know Scott Lee is on the road constantly doing shows and clinics.

I know that a player I can (could) beat pretty consistently was getting gigs doing corporate events at a couple thousand a night.

So are there really other avenues besides sponsorships, tournaments and "gambling" to make money as a professional pool player?

The obvious ones are:

Exhibitions
Teaching
House Pro Job
Videos
Books
Product Sales (Nick Varner Cues, Mizerak, etc..)

If you are a professional pool player should you be doing all or some of these things?

How lucrative can they possibly be?

How "low" would you go to make good money? Say if someone wanted to pay you $100,000 a year to travel the country and do a series of beat the champ style exhibitions in bars and pool rooms where the guy who beats you gets a shot of Jack or some kind of promo thingy?

Last question; Is there any hope really for the professional pool player to ever just be a player, getting paid decent money to run around the world and compete for our entertainment?

The most obvious answer is, pool is not a professional sport. Pool is a sport played by millions of people and a small industry for cues makers, case makers, pool room owners, etc. but not a sport where you can make a living playing the sport; as least not that any new player could aspire to. The first question that comes to mind would be, who is going to pay this money to the pros and why would they be doing so? What does the pro have to offer that would complete this transaction that would make it beneficial to both parties?

I am sure this same conversation happens in any number of sports, Archery, Cycling, Swimming, Fishing, Skeet Shooting, what ever. It would be fun to get paid to just play a game and not have to get a real job but that is not going to happen in pool or any other recreation activities. A few may make some peripheral money as a result of being a player but that is about it.
To repeat myself, Who is going to be paying this money to the pro and why would they be doing so?

Pool will always continue to be a popular sport to play and is not in the least dependent on professional players to remain so.
To answer your original question "Why are professional players broke"? They don't have any income and need to get a real job either within the industry or outside to support their love for playing the game.

This reminds me of an old comedian Joe E Lewis. In his act he would say "I not really a comedian, I am a professional handicapper, I am out at the track everyday. I just do this to pay the bills".

 

[paksat]

Oh I was just informed by a pro (friend) that on his way back from Georgia last week-end stopped in Jacksonville for a tournament ..$10.00 entry fee..55 players showed up full of top pros !!! $300.00 for first !! Sad but had to laugh ..as they all did. Finding themselves in a $ 10.00 tournament.

I was there, I posted pictures of the beautiful pool room in another thread.

Not exactly full of top pros but tommie kennedy, earl strickland, davis jr and a few others were there.

 

[ironman]

How many just can't manage money? How many win some just to blow it on their next gambling adventure, breaking their pocketbook, and thus restarting the cycle? There are some that have explored these avenues and do make good with their talents and can balance a checkbook, but due to the nature of this game we never hear about them. We would rather hear about a player that sold his sole to make a twice across side than one who thanks God for the talent he has.
The Billiards industry has no go to authority (look at the NBA, NFL, etc). the bodies out there nip and bite for their turf. Their little piece of ground. Without unity there will never be a strong tour and without there will never be large and consistent pay offs.
If the players could be unified under one name, the looks cleaned up for the masses ( a lot of sports require dress afire for interviews), have a management team that preferably knows nothing about pool but more about business, it might be a good start.

This is like beating a dead horse!

 

[alstl]

They aren't all broke but there are some players who are gamblers first and professional pool players second. If they would stick to pool they wouldn't be rich but they would live comfortably. Instead the casino or card players get their cash.

 

[ironman]

Remember the tournament in Vegas when all the players bet big on Mike Lebron and he won? Pool players will dump for the cash or do any number of things to win. I have seen rules change in the middle of a tournament and the finals re-evaluated to decided should it be two sets for true double elimination, or one set? I have seen a seeded draw too, so top pros won't draw each other. I take my chance on who I draw and so should they. I see temper tantrums, sharking, throwing cues and chalk and if it's a real good player...."Oh he'll calm down, just ignore it." Sportsman like conduct is a thing of the past. Who wants their company's face to be a part of that? They needed to clean their act up many years ago. It's to bad some of the newer players still hold onto those old player habits of "Ahhh yes, cash in my pocket." (I'll be gone from this town tomorrow) mentality.

It has changed a lot. I remember these times too. We as a culture need to past it and leave the past right where it is, the past.
Sure dumping and stuff like that will be a problem for as long as there are sports and gambling.
For many pool players, hunger and the survival intstinct is a powerful thing. Sleep in your car a few days, get up and try to play a tough set. It is more difficult than most can even fathom. Call home while on the road when the rent is due and reach in your pocket and feel only your leg. It makes the pockets on each table much tighter.
The Mike Lebron thing was one of the ugliest things ever to happen to pool and few even know the real story behind it all and how narrowly quite a few escaped. That though was then and this is now.If we want the game to change we have to start from within. Each time Pro player issues come up someone always jumps out to bring out the degenerate gamblers and dumps etc.
Few these days were tough enough to survive what it was like then.
I don't by any means condone the behavior, but, I feel it is high time to leave the past right where it belongs, in the past. The game severly needs a new face and it won't happen unless we the existing allow it. pools worst critics are it's fans.
There are promoters these days who work their butts offf to put on tournaments or even tours and try to keep it as clean as possible There are many players today who love the game and want to correct the intergrity of the game.
Nothing is perfect or ever has been. I feel a great place to start is right here.
Not everyone in the Pool world is a Kevin Trudough.

 

[Maniac]

The most obvious answer is, pool is not a professional sport. Pool is a sport played by millions of people and a small industry for cues makers, case makers, pool room owners, etc. but not a sport where you can make a living playing the sport; as least not that any new player could aspire to. The first question that comes to mind would be, who is going to pay this money to the pros and why would they be doing so? What does the pro have to offer that would complete this transaction that would make it beneficial to both parties?

I am sure this same conversation happens in any number of sports, Archery, Cycling, Swimming, Fishing, Skeet Shooting, what ever. It would be fun to get paid to just play a game and not have to get a real job but that is not going to happen in pool or any other recreation activities. A few may make some peripheral money as a result of being a player but that is about it.
To repeat myself, Who is going to be paying this money to the pro and why would they be doing so?

Pool will always continue to be a popular sport to play and is not in the least dependent on professional players to remain so.
To answer your original question "Why are professional players broke"? They don't have any income and need to get a real job either within the industry or outside to support their love for playing the game.

macguy and I think alike apparently.

Maniac

 

[jason]

Oh I was just informed by a pro (friend) that on his way back from Georgia last week-end stopped in Jacksonville for a tournament ..$10.00 entry fee..55 players showed up full of top pros !!! $300.00 for first !! Sad but had to laugh ..as they all did. Finding themselves in a $ 10.00 tournament.

Where's that tournament I will play in it! $10 buck is a bargain to play any of them and maybe kick their ass!

 

[M HOUSE]

No money in pool?

Oh I was just informed by a pro (friend) that on his way back from Georgia last week-end stopped in Jacksonville for a tournament ..$10.00 entry fee..55 players showed up full of top pros !!! $300.00 for first !! Sad but had to laugh ..as they all did. Finding themselves in a $ 10.00 tournament.

You make it sound like $300.00 isn't a lot of money. Why, that's nearly enough money to pay for the gas to get to the next tournament!

 

[macguy]

This post really cannot be understated.

Gambling is a zero-sum game. For every player who made $1000 (or whatever the bet was), someone lost $1000 and now needs to make it up just to break even. So unless that player is on top of the food chain, this surely isn't the path to riches for most players.

Seemingly but not really. Most players who gamble win about half the time and lose half the time. So what happens why are some gamblers broke and others not? Regarding pool I remember Richie Ambrose telling me he won like 70 or 80% of the time. The problem was the other 20% kept him broke. He may book 8 winners in a row and go broke to the 9th. They don't manage their money. People who don't play always ask, "How can you just walk in and play anyone without knowing how they play"?

Two reasons, 1, you play good enough that the percentage of players that can beat you is small anyway. Second and most important is, you don't care how good the guy plays because you have no intention of losing anything significant no matter how you may act or what you may say; no one has a gun to your head. You can offer spots sight unseen just to get them on the table because you will talk them out of the spot if the game is bad or you will quit after a small lose. Winners don't chase their money throwing good money after bad losers do.

There is another dynamic also, one player is playing for the sole purpose of making money, again regardless how they may act, while the other is gambling. To one player the game in just a small investment in what may be a good return. To the other they have no preconceived plan what so ever, they just play and what ever happens happens.

I had to come back and add this. I am not advocating you play like this all the time. In your local room you will be labeled as a nit and you also don't treat friends like that either. I have guys I play with regular and there is probably not more then a few games difference between us over years; although we bet the money is not the goal. On the road or against strangers is a different story though.

 

[vagabond]

Not the female pro players. Many women pros and semi pros have regular jobs and they have realistic expectations in life.women are very practical.It is the problem with men and their attitudes.Men pros have unrealistic expectations.Men pros talk and act in a manner that makes u wonder whether they feel entitled for a living playing pool.American society is neither legally nor morally obligated to feed the pro players. Top 3-4 of men and top 3-4 of women make decent living by playing pool but the players ranked 5 to what ever have to get a real job.
Around 10 years ago Some one told me that during the court trial in a criminal matter of one of the pro players, the judge asked the defendant what did he do for living.The guy said that he was a professional pool player.Then the judge told him ' why don`t u get a real job'? JB, are u coming to the BCA expo?If u do, we will talk about this when we meet


PS:GET A REAL JOB, MR.Pro Player! Flipping the Burgers in 'Fat Burgers,McDonalds or Burger king'is more respectable.
A carpenter tries to learn a different trade when he learns that there is no work for carpenters in the community or there is work but not enough to support his family.

 

[JCIN]

Not all pro players are broke.

The biggest problem with pro pool is the bar to be called a pro is set so low as to be almost meaningless.

Quite frankly many people who refer to themselves as professionals are not. There are maybe ten players in the country who can draw any kind of crowd. Everything else is a big mess of people either trying to move into that level or simply treading water trying to grind out an existence.

I suspect the biggest reason most "pro's" are broke is that while many of us were working for $5 an hour (or whatever menial jobs you worked at your age) as teenagers, many of them were in pool rooms getting staked in $500 and $1000 sets at the same age. This is a quick way to learn a healthy disrespect for money.

On numerous occasions I have heard a pro player refer to a sum money equal to what I used bring home for a week of working a $30 an hour job as "That's no money". If you have no respect for money its no surprise you do not have success in managing it.

Also quite frankly many guys I know simply do not fear being broke. I understand this because I am the same way. On the one hand it is unbelievably liberating but on the other it doesn't bode very well for retirement prospects. We all make choices. Adults don't blame the outcome of those choices on others.