Yeah...the good old days: when the shooter wasn't punished for playing crappy position.
:banghead:
Why Are They Not Playing True 10-Ball Rules?
- Thread starter ChrisinNC
- Start date
Yeah...the good old days: when the shooter wasn't punished for playing crappy position.
:banghead:
Well said. That was always my problem with shootout --- poor position play should be punished to the max, and Texas Express rules ensures this.
The version of shootout that I could live with was the one in which a push was only permitted a) on the shot after the break, and b) on your first shot of any subsequent inning, but few played it that way.
My opinion on called shot (called ball/pocket really, calling other details of a shot is absurd) and called safe varies depending on which game is being played. I think it really depends on what "problem" with the game you are trying to solve, how frequently it occurs, and whether there is a better solution available that still fits the spirit of the game.
For example, in 14.1, the spirit of the game is that you continuously run as many balls as you can in no particular order by shooting a chosen ball into any pocket you choose. The problem is that the "any ball, any pocket" nature of the game makes it easy to slop in a ball other than the one you choose or break up a bunch of balls in desperation and hope one goes. Playing called shot alleviates that problem. Conversely, accidentally playing safe on your opponent upon missing a shot isn't much of an issue in 14.1 because they can shoot at any ball on the table.
With rotation games, you are less likely to slop balls in (sure, it happens), but much more likely to accidentally leave your opponent hooked upon missing a shot, often just by playing position on the next ball. In my opinion, true 2-way shots are relatively uncommon compared to inadvertent safeties, but maybe someone can prove me wrong. One possible solution to inadvertent safeties is playing called safe. Another is to play roll-out (only upon coming to the table). Yet another option is to just say "it's part of the game, sorry the rolls weren't going your way". For 9/10 ball, I would prefer the second, and think that doing nothing is better than playing called safe because called safe usually results in very conservative and boring play.
In the case of American rotation, I think that called shot/safe works well. Between alternate breaks and BIH after the break, the intent is clearly that a particular rack is meant to "belong" to the breaker, so the entire match should feel like a tug of war where you win by "stealing" more points from your opponent's racks than they do from yours. Playing a safety to maintain control of your rack doesn't seem overly conservative, in fact, it means voluntarily giving your opponent a chance to steal from you when you'd prefer to be keeping them in their seat.
For example, in 14.1, the spirit of the game is that you continuously run as many balls as you can in no particular order by shooting a chosen ball into any pocket you choose. The problem is that the "any ball, any pocket" nature of the game makes it easy to slop in a ball other than the one you choose or break up a bunch of balls in desperation and hope one goes. Playing called shot alleviates that problem. Conversely, accidentally playing safe on your opponent upon missing a shot isn't much of an issue in 14.1 because they can shoot at any ball on the table.
With rotation games, you are less likely to slop balls in (sure, it happens), but much more likely to accidentally leave your opponent hooked upon missing a shot, often just by playing position on the next ball. In my opinion, true 2-way shots are relatively uncommon compared to inadvertent safeties, but maybe someone can prove me wrong. One possible solution to inadvertent safeties is playing called safe. Another is to play roll-out (only upon coming to the table). Yet another option is to just say "it's part of the game, sorry the rolls weren't going your way". For 9/10 ball, I would prefer the second, and think that doing nothing is better than playing called safe because called safe usually results in very conservative and boring play.
In the case of American rotation, I think that called shot/safe works well. Between alternate breaks and BIH after the break, the intent is clearly that a particular rack is meant to "belong" to the breaker, so the entire match should feel like a tug of war where you win by "stealing" more points from your opponent's racks than they do from yours. Playing a safety to maintain control of your rack doesn't seem overly conservative, in fact, it means voluntarily giving your opponent a chance to steal from you when you'd prefer to be keeping them in their seat.
I have always wondered why (in the 10-ball rules) there is a section for "safety". Because the way 10-ball is played, there is no benefit for calling "safety" and the punishment for pocketing wrong ball or wrong pocket is identical whether you called a ball or called "safety".
If it is true that the original rules of 10-ball penalized you (by giving opponent option to shoot) for missing a called shot (where no ball is pocketed), then the idea of a "safety" all makes sense.
I think the current rules of 10-ball should be rewritten to totally remove any reference to the word "safety".
edit: The current 10-ball rules do not allow you to make a ball and force your opponent to shoot. Incorrectly pocketing a ball without making a called ball gives your opponent the option to shoot or pass the shot back. This would also apply if a safety was called.
Some 8-ball rule sets have rules which allow you call a safety to ensure your opponent shoots next even if you make your ball.
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This thread is FULL of reasons I no longer play competitive 9 ball!
Poo: the inmates are running the asylum!
Meant to say 'pool'...but poo can stand.
That is not correct. In 10-ball, if you do not call ball and pocket (eg. by declaring "safety) and you pocket ANY ball on a legal shot, the incoming player has the option to play the shot as left, or hand it back to you.
That's why I say that 10-ball, in effect, does not have a "safety". The BCAPL rules have been updated to have any reference to a safety in the 10-ball rules removed. Not sure why the WPA rules have not followed suit.
Are you saying that you and your gang miss and leave safes accidentally more often than you all play a valid shot and hide whitey in case you miss?
If so, ok. Pushout might be best for you.
You're right. My recollection was from the general "safety" definition and the 8-ball rules. According to the WPA rules online, there is a difference between calling a safety and making a ball vs. calling and making the ball: if you called the ball/pocket and make it, it remains your turn at the table; if you called safe (or another ball, if BCAPL won't let you call safe) and make the ball you're shooting, it's your opponent's option. It doesn't have the same sort of strategic application as calling safe in 8-ball and making a ball. I'll edit my previous post so I don't confuse anyone.
Looking at the current BCAPL and WPA rules, it does appear that they allow for 2-way shots in 10-ball, so all the called shot rule is preventing is slop, but they do nothing to protect from an "accidental defense". I guess there are always going to be people that think 2-way shots are clever and won't want to see them eliminated (by called safeties, e.g. American Rotation) or diminished (by roll-out). I'm not one of those people.
I can understand if you don't care to play "called safe", but it doesn't seem absurd to be allowed to hand a shot back to your opponent if they miss a shot and unintentionally hook you in the process. It might not happen very often during professional play, but I've been accidentally hooked plenty of times playing with other amateurs, and no, I'm not talking about 2-way shots; I'm talking about when the missed ball goes 3 rails and hides behind a cluster or the cue ball gets locked up in a spot where they wouldn't have had a shot on their next ball either.
The leave is what the leave is. Shoot when it is your shot and get off the table, when it isnt.
When you miss a shot, do you expect to be given a second chance? No: you did what you did, good or bad.
That's a perfectly valid opinion, and you can choose to play that way all the time, but my point was that it isn't "absurd" for someone to complain about their opponent missing a shot and hooking them accidentally. I've seen just about every pool player I can think of react to such a shot, whether it's with laughter, a comment, an eye roll, or outright rage. Maybe you are emotionally detached from the game enough to be on the receiving end of such a roll think "it is what it is", but most aren't. Some players get frustrated by a game where they feel that luck plays too large of a role, so I understand if they want to play something else. Sometimes I do play something else, and sometimes I enjoy the simplicity of straight up Texas Express 9-ball, but that doesn't make it the only way to play the game. I don't understand your question about expecting a second chance. If I miss a ball that I intend to make, I expect to be penalized for it, not rewarded by a lucky roll.
Obviously there are a lot of high end players here and just as many opinions.
For us mortals...
Call pocket 10 ball removes most of the luck we experience from others at the mortal level simply by it being Call Pocket.
Adding call pocket prevents/limits the hitting it hard hoping to get lucky if missed tactic...yes, unfortunately this happens too often in 9 ball.
Live with it in 9 ball or play 10 ball against those guys.
Hook Pass Options for wrong pocket/unintended pocketed balls is very valuable as it also removes a lot of the banging for hopes and prayers.
Uncalled safe pass option is just ridicules...
For us mortals...
Call pocket 10 ball removes most of the luck we experience from others at the mortal level simply by it being Call Pocket.
Adding call pocket prevents/limits the hitting it hard hoping to get lucky if missed tactic...yes, unfortunately this happens too often in 9 ball.
Live with it in 9 ball or play 10 ball against those guys.
Hook Pass Options for wrong pocket/unintended pocketed balls is very valuable as it also removes a lot of the banging for hopes and prayers.
Uncalled safe pass option is just ridicules...
In my banger play, I ablsoluley love shitting in a ball, especially riding the 9! It brings such joy to me.
On a pro level, as a fan, watching a pro shit a ball in, makes the match more exciting to me "to watch".
Making pros call balls in ANY rotation game is a big step backwards "for the viewers". I could care less what the pros want. The viewers are the ones who should be dictating the rules that make it more likely for us to watch.
On a pro level, as a fan, watching a pro shit a ball in, makes the match more exciting to me "to watch".
Making pros call balls in ANY rotation game is a big step backwards "for the viewers". I could care less what the pros want. The viewers are the ones who should be dictating the rules that make it more likely for us to watch.
I'm from Philly, and have been in Atlanta the past 10 years. I went to Philly this past xmas for a visit, and matched up with some new (to me) players in the area. They wanted to play 9 ball with call shot! I'm like WTF are you guys doing? You bastardized the game! And then I asked them about a few scenarios to work out the details of unintentionally pocketing a ball on a safe or a push or a foul, and they didn't even have those scenarios worked out. Call shot just leads to trouble with rules.
Everything wild is how rotation games are supposed to be played.
Luck does not even matter in pool. The better player always wins anyway, regardless of the rule set. If you went with Earl's rules of 10' tables, 4" pockets, no side pockets, and no jump cues, the same players from each generation would still be tops. Conversely, if you went with 6' Valleys, 5" pockets with parallel facings, and jump cues allowed, the same players from each generation would still be tops.
Making everyone call everything under the sun just makes the game more boring. AND it takes away one of the most dramatic and exciting shots... RIDING THE CHEESE!!!!!
Everything wild is how rotation games are supposed to be played.
Luck does not even matter in pool. The better player always wins anyway, regardless of the rule set. If you went with Earl's rules of 10' tables, 4" pockets, no side pockets, and no jump cues, the same players from each generation would still be tops. Conversely, if you went with 6' Valleys, 5" pockets with parallel facings, and jump cues allowed, the same players from each generation would still be tops.
Making everyone call everything under the sun just makes the game more boring. AND it takes away one of the most dramatic and exciting shots... RIDING THE CHEESE!!!!!