Why can't other pros break like Shaw and Shane?

G

gxman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Both 9b and 10b break, they're noticeable much better than the majority.

Guys like Alex and Dennis Orcollo are just as good after the break, but its the break that have them a hair behind Shaw and Shane.

People always talk about how much Shane practices his break, but I imagine guys like Dennis put up a lot of hours working on his break too.

Shaw's successful break percentage 21% higher than the field.

AtLarge said:
Tournament winner Shaw appeared on stream in just 3 matches, all played today. So the numbers for him are pretty small, just 30 breaks. The "All other" numbers are for all the other players who appeared in any of the 22 streamed matches.

Successful breaks (made at least one ball and did not foul):

  • • Shaw -- 77% (23 of 30)
    • All others -- 56% (148 of 264)
    • Total -- 58% (171 of 294)

Breaker won the game:

  • • Shaw -- 73% (22 of 30)
    • All others -- 51% (134 of 264)
    • Total -- 53% (156 of 294)

Break-and-run games, on all breaks:

  • • Shaw -- 37% (11 of 30)
    • All others -- 18% (48 of 264)
    • Total -- 20% (59 of 294)

Break-and-run games, on successful breaks:

  • • Shaw -- 48% (11 of 23)
    • All others -- 32% (48 of 148)
    • Total -- 35% (59 of 171)
Click to expand...
 
Is that breaking from the box? Breaking from the rail I would expect "successful breaks" to be in the high 90's for 9 ball.
 
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My only comment is the break needs to be less of the game. There's got to be a way to minimize it somehow. I give credit to Shane and other good breakers for having a good breaks, I just don't give a crap about it as a skill is all and I don't think the games we play should reward such a plebeian skill so heavily.
 
Ekojasiloop said:
My only comment is the break needs to be less of the game. There's got to be a way to minimize it somehow. I give credit to Shane and other good breakers for having a good breaks, I just don't give a crap about it as a skill is all and I don't think the games we play should reward such a plebeian skill so heavily.
Click to expand...



Play a different game then, darts, jacks whatever. That is what IS wrong with the game, taking something that's been around forever just fine & then deciding something is wrong with it & tinkering with it.

That's been happening with the break in 9 ball for 15 years now. Leave it the freak alone. Go take up a game you like as is instead of trying to change a game to your liking.
 
Ekojasiloop said:
My only comment is the break needs to be less of the game. There's got to be a way to minimize it somehow. I give credit to Shane and other good breakers for having a good breaks, I just don't give a crap about it as a skill is all and I don't think the games we play should reward such a plebeian skill so heavily.
Click to expand...

Sounds like someone needs to practice their break. Most important shot in the whole game.
 
Ekojasiloop said:
My only comment is the break needs to be less of the game. There's got to be a way to minimize it somehow. I give credit to Shane and other good breakers for having a good breaks, I just don't give a crap about it as a skill is all and I don't think the games we play should reward such a plebeian skill so heavily.
Click to expand...

Why do you feel the need to reward the player that's to lazy to put in the time to study the break over and over, hours upon hours....by taking away that advantage from the player that worked so hard to win that FIRST game from the break? In school that would be like passing the F- student while failing the A+ student that has worked so hard to pass to the next grade!
 
Successful breakers (that includes soft break masters like Corey) practice them for hours. Just like the masters of jump shots practice them. Not all pros practice the same things. SVB has been seen spending as much as 3 hours straight doing nothing but breaking...
 
realkingcobra said:
Why do you feel the need to reward the player that's to lazy to put in the time to study the break over and over, hours upon hours....by taking away that advantage from the player that worked so hard to win that FIRST game from the break? In school that would be like passing the F- student while failing the A+ student that has worked so hard to pass to the next grade!
Click to expand...

Do you agree with taking away Corey and Donny's soft break? I don't.
Jason
 
Breaking should be important, just not the number one factor separating pros. Do you need to be a long driver in golf to compete? (no) And in pool you also need to be able to read the rack (some say cheat the rack?). Should that be a requirement of a top player? I'd rather having great shots after the break deciding the winner, rather than just one shot. Of course the top players break AND shoot well. But right now for "pros", they are playing for scraps if they do not have an amazing break and rack knowledge.

The solution is easy, make the game harder. One pocket or 15 ball rotation. Small pockets, slower cloth, etc. Or better rules, like mandatory push out.

If you really think making the game harder will be boring or not enough racks run. Then try watching the US open bar table finals with magic rack. So boring. Snooker is insanely hard and look how its done.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDsAzH7Ru9k
 
Nothing is going to 'fix pool'...especially your personal gripes.

It cant be fixed, coz it isnt broken. It is a recreational activity tbat a small % of the population does, more that 10x a year.

Support your local poet!

Somewhere, a racquetball tournament will be going on...will you be there to support?
 
poolscholar said:
Breaking should be important, just not the number one factor separating pros. Do you need to be a long driver in golf to compete? (no) And in pool you also need to be able to read the rack (some say cheat the rack?). Should that be a requirement of a top player? I'd rather having great shots after the break deciding the winner, rather than just one shot. Of course the top players break AND shoot well. But right now for "pros", they are playing for scraps if they do not have an amazing break and rack knowledge.



The solution is easy, make the game harder. One pocket or 15 ball rotation. Small pockets, slower cloth, etc. Or better rules, like mandatory push out.



If you really think making the game harder will be boring or not enough racks run. Then try watching the US open bar table finals with magic rack. So boring. Snooker is insanely hard and look how its done.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDsAzH7Ru9k
Click to expand...


Ur talking about bar table 9 ball with pros. Break or not it's boring.


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums mobile app
 
That's why I like snooker and straight pool. The break isn't really a factor. I don't play any straight pool players capable of running 150 and out.
 
jasonlaus said:
Do you agree with taking away Corey and Donny's soft break? I don't.
Jason
Click to expand...

Absolutely not. Learn to break like they do, then beat them at their own game....IF YOU CAN! But, I still support a set rack pattern for both players no matter what.
 
Ekojasiloop said:
My only comment is the break needs to be less of the game. There's got to be a way to minimize it somehow. I give credit to Shane and other good breakers for having a good breaks, I just don't give a crap about it as a skill is all and I don't think the games we play should reward such a plebeian skill so heavily.
Click to expand...

Amen to that.

In the straight pool era, the break had very little to do with determining who was best. Shotmaking, position play, and defense were always the primary skills with which one would either succeed or fail in pool. Sure enough, this also tends to be the case in the Bigfoot 10-ball, which is just over a week away. A big break helps, but you must demonstrate very strong after the break skills to win. Full rack banks, as John Brumback has posted, also makes the break of minimal concern. The break is important in one pocket, but it seems, at least at the Derby, that everybody breaks quite skillfully.

Having a good break should be rewarded, but I agree very strongly that it should not be the game's most important skill.
 
gxman said:
Both 9b and 10b break, they're noticeable much better than the majority.

Guys like Alex and Dennis Orcollo are just as good after the break, but its the break that have them a hair behind Shaw and Shane.

People always talk about how much Shane practices his break, but I imagine guys like Dennis put up a lot of hours working on his break too.

Shaw's successful break percentage 21% higher than the field.
Click to expand...
I think that the numbers you are looking at as slightly misleading. As AtLarge already mentioned, the sample sizes are rather small, so it could just be that Shaw was on an exceptional streak of breaks, but I don't think that's really the case since Shane and Jayson are known to have some of the best power breaks in the game. I think that the mistake is comparing their break stats to the rest of the field. I don't think that the majority of players have refined their break the way the top breakers have. Some have invested the effort into other parts of the game, and some just don't put in as much practice altogether. To be fair, you'd really have to compare Shane and Jayson to the players that claim to have put a similar amount of effort into it. If you did, I suspect that you would be able to account for the differences with a combination of natural talent and attributes such as strength, dexterity, and timing that have been developed through practice.

In short, this is kind of like asking why the best NBA 3-point shooters have such a higher shot % than the rest of the NBA averages.
 
sjm said:
Amen to that.

In the straight pool era, the break had very little to do with determining who was best. Shotmaking, position play, and defense were always the primary skills with which one would either succeed or fail in pool. Sure enough, this also tends to be the case in the Bigfoot 10-ball, which is just over a week away. A big break helps, but you must demonstrate very strong after the break skills to win. Full rack banks, as John Brumback has posted, also makes the break of minimal concern. The break is important in one pocket, but it seems, at least at the Derby, that everybody breaks quite skillfully.

Having a good break should be rewarded, but I agree very strongly that it should not be the game's most important skill.
Click to expand...

But....in all honesty, you can't compare 14.1 breaking to the break in 9 or 10 ball because they're two totally different games. In 14.1 ideally....there's only ONE opening break shot that does NOT repeat every 9 or 10 balls pocketed. In 9 or 10 ball, the break is so important....because it's the very first chance to draw blood from your opponent, the question the breaker has to answer....is can he keep it going AFTER the break, and for how many racks.
 
realkingcobra said:
But....in all honesty, you can't compare 14.1 breaking to the break in 9 or 10 ball because they're two totally different games. In 14.1 ideally....there's only ONE opening break shot that does NOT repeat every 9 or 10 balls pocketed. In 9 or 10 ball, the break is so important....because it's the very first chance to draw blood from your opponent, the question the breaker has to answer....is can he keep it going AFTER the break, and for how many racks.
Click to expand...

Points are well taken, and I'm just sharing my personal preferences. For me, the Big Foot 10-ball is better to watch than 9-ball at Derby City because the shot-making, the position play, the defense and the kicking are all more challenging than in nine ball, making it a better test of all around skill.

... but to each his own.
 
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