Why can't women play as good as men?

the graph nice pic by the way is outdated.

The best surveys in the world could not explain why things are the way they are, regardless of sample size.

Determination never meant anything until I faced some serious challenges in life. Measuring it based solely off of testosterone is limited. Someone will discover more stuff and change the tests.

the guy is right there just arent as many female pool players as there are guy pool players. With a historical analysis men will prove to hold more titles. comparing players on a one to one basis that some good stuff there because less things to take into account and more meat to grind.

The question stated why women can't play as good as men is already biased, further assumptions just make things worse.

How about why is it men dominate the field more so then women??
 
So just out of curiousity, when were women allowed into pool halls ? It may have been sometime in the 1960's in Saskatchewan, but I am relying on a youngster's memory.

Great post John, right on the money imo !

Dave, who's now curious if it was culture, civic ordinance, or provincial legislature ... hmmmmm ...
 
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jay helfert said:
Actually, THEY CAN! I have long said that one of the beauties of this sport is that there is no mental or physical reason why a woman can't play as well as a man.

Twenty years ago, Jean Balukas terrorized the men players, and present day there are several women liable to win a match against any man. Allison, Karen and Jeanette come to mind first. Karen especially has an excellent track record against men, and Jeanette has beaten many top players in 9-Ball, One Pocket, Eight Ball and Banks.
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If I was going to listen to someone it would be you Jay but I am going to need to ask a few questions here on this one.
I'm aware of the fact that the top women can COMPETE with men pros but thats about it isn't it? Who's the best women player at this time? Allison? Now if you RANKED her from the best in the world on down where would you put her? I don't think she would make the top 100 and she's the top woman player.
Anyways I'm talking on average. Sure there are a few exceptions but in general women don't play as well. (jesus I'm starting to sound like Sigel:o ) If you generalize the women pros they would fall into the category of A players, maybe shortstops. Even some of them are only strong B players, maybe even only B...no?
Basically what I'm trying to say is that if you took twins from birth (boy and girl) and they both had equal playing time and practice in everyway do you think they would play the same speed? I think many people will say no. I'm not really sure yet. I'm leaning towards no.

Anyways are we on the same page when I say in general the women aren't playing as well as the men up to this point in time?
 
Harvywallbanger said:
If I was going to listen to someone it would be you Jay but I am going to need to ask a few questions here on this one.
I'm aware of the fact that the top women can COMPETE with men pros but thats about it isn't it? Who's the best women player at this time? Allison? Now if you RANKED her from the best in the world on down where would you put her? I don't think she would make the top 100 and she's the top woman player.
Anyways I'm talking on average. Sure there are a few exceptions but in general women don't play as well. (jesus I'm starting to sound like Sigel:o ) If you generalize the women pros they would fall into the category of A players, maybe shortstops. Even some of them are only strong B players, maybe even only B...no?
Basically what I'm trying to say is that if you took twins from birth (boy and girl) and they both had equal playing time and practice in everyway do you think they would play the same speed? I think many people will say no. I'm not really sure yet. I'm leaning towards no.

Anyways are we on the same page when I say in general the women aren't playing as well as the men up to this point in time?
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Okay, if you took twins who were equally dedicated to pool, who would play best? I say......the Lefty!

In my mind, presently Karen Corr is the best women 9-Ball player, particularly when facing male opponents. How high would I rank her? Surprise, I would put Karen in the top 50 9-Ball players right now.
If she played regularly in all the major men's events, I believe she would consistently finish in the top 16 and frequently the top ten and occasionally the top five.

And she is capable of winning one of them. And I mean now, not next week or next year. Absolutely, Karen is an underdog playing someone like Bustamante or Earl or Ralf or Thorsten. But not the big underdog you might think. I don't care who she is playing (9-Ball), if someone wants to give me 5-1 on the outcome of the match, I'll take Karen.
 
justnum said:
you just made my hit list. I bring bad news poorly so oh well.

recently Ive been brought up to speed on something called graph theory that plus billiards I think I could pull of a dissertation on it. Imagine the billable research hours.
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Sounds like Graph Theory is like being 1/4 mile from the interstate, but ten miles from the on ramp.

I can see how graph theory could be used in billiards, but I fail to see the bad part of the news. It sounds like a good opportunity to me.
 
jay helfert said:
Okay, if you took twins who were equally dedicated to pool, who would play best? I say......the Lefty!

In my mind, presently Karen Corr is the best women 9-Ball player, particularly when facing male opponents. How high would I rank her? Surprise, I would put Karen in the top 50 9-Ball players right now.
If she played regularly in all the major men's events, I believe she would consistently finish in the top 16 and frequently the top ten and occasionally the top five.

And she is capable of winning one of them. And I mean now, not next week or next year. Absolutely, Karen is an underdog playing someone like Bustamante or Earl or Ralf or Thorsten. But not the big underdog you might think. I don't care who she is playing (9-Ball), if someone wants to give me 5-1 on the outcome of the match, I'll take Karen.
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I would like to add one thing. In the last five years, the overall ability level of the top women has improved more rapidly than that of the top men. That is, the women are currently on a faster learning curve than the men.
 
good point the graph is about 10 years old. I only wanted to state testosterone is just one thing tested. You can test a whole myriad of things from brain chemistry to physical strenght, stress management, but I picked something I felt was obscure. We could go into chromosomal defects, or sociological upbringing, black women vs white etc. Brain damage on the left anterior side of the brain affects women more than men in regards to speech even though for both the left hemisphere is associated with speech. There are differnces in the way the brain works too.

Truth be told there hasn't been any research that can prove certain sex differences ARE NOT biological. Men have greater mental disorders and abnormalities. Why are there no female Einsteins or Hawkins. Why is there greater amounts of autism and retardation in males and so little in females. Why do women use a small part of thier brain to convey emotional states in words compared to men who have over 10 times the electrical activity needed to do the same task.

On another note, Sport is known to be a male creation and for centuries women have been excluded. If sports are male constructs isn't it posible that the rules are made to favor men and discourage women who do try. A failsafe if you will against women who actually try. Lets say pool was made by women and the rules of the game were to favor womens skills, then they would dominate. Say if the point of the game wasn't just pocketing but involved some kind of color coordination or something to do with distance displaced then men wouldn't do as well. Of course it wouldn't be the pool we know.

Here's another women do better in fine motor skills such as placing geometric pegs in corresponding boards, If there was some sport that made this a competition men wouldn't do as well.

And from another point of view male field hockey players on the average have done better than the average female field hockey player. Here we have a situation where the men are less represented in the sport, yet when speaking on averages, they do better. food for thought
 
DaveK said:
So just out of curiousity, when were women allowed into pool halls ? It may have been sometime in the 1960's in Saskatchewan, but I am relying on a youngster's memory.

Dave, who's now curious if it was culture, civic ordinance, or provincial legislature ... hmmmmm ...
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From the research I did a while ago, I found that it was around that time, that women were allowed in pool rooms. I believe in some places it was late 60's.

Either way I agree with onepocketchump, the explanation is pretty cut and dry, for every 1 serious female player there are 10 serious men. If your dedicated, I suppose you could try and figure out of the players who become serious about learning game, what percentage of the men become world class, and what percentage of the women become world class. That is the only way you would find any results that are telling, and I wouldn't be surprised if they were similar within a few percentile.

Of course this would be very difficult to do, because you would have to be able find out how many serious players there are in total (within a serious pool playing country would be a good enough excercise), but then you would have to differentiate between players who are learning for the sake of learning and players who actually intend to become as good as they can be and from casual league players (or that type).

Anyways...what was I talking about? Oh yeah... girls and pool. I think a more interesting question is, why are women less likely to take up the game? I wouldn't mind discussing that.

As for the question "why is it that men dominate the field more than women?", isn't that the same thing as the topic of this thread?
 
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Cameron Smith said:
I think a more interesting question is, why are women less likely to take up the game? I wouldn't mind discussing that.
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I like that.
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Cameron Smith said:
From the research I did a while ago, I found that it was around that time, that women were allowed in pool rooms. I believe in some places it was late 60's.
....

I think a more interesting question is, why are women less likely to take up the game? I wouldn't mind discussing that.
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There are very few female role models in the pool world. With limited history there is little legend and lore for girls to follow. It's been a mans game until quite recently, and for the most part women don't want to be like men (I think/Idunno). It will take a generation or two to change the "pool is a man's game" metality imo, then girls will take up pool at the same rate as boys. Ask me then who's better , I'll be around :cool:

Dave
 
I predict that two fraternal twins who had EXACTLY the same opportunity and experience would be incredibly close in skill. This discounts any societal issues such as girls being treated differently. If a girl were allowed to practice the same, were mentored the same, allowed to play the same players, even allowed to gamble the same then personality is the only reason why she wouldn't be as strong a player as her brother. This assumes that both also had the same level of cognitive ability.

I think in the coming years you will see the fruits of women having access to the same opportunities as their male counterparts. Jasmin might be a good example of this as the story goes that she has been trained since being a toddler. Despite the best training however she is still limited to being vastly outnumbered AND she is also limited in whatever her personal abilities are.

I could have had the exact same training and experience as Johnny Archer and I know that I would never have become as good as Johhny. I would have been as good as 25-50% of the field at the current IPT event but still not a consistently elite player. Why? Because my mental game is not there. Now take a Kelly Fisher and give her the same experience as Johnny and I fully believe that she would be every bit as good or better than Johnny is right now. I think that right now if Kelly and Johnny matched up in high stakes HORSE on the pool table that Johnny doesn't have to win. So there is no particular physical task on the pool table that Johnny is better than Kelly at nor she him. Where Johnny has the clear advantage is playing pool under pressure and picking the right shots due to his overwhelming experience with pool games in comparison to Kelly's.

John
 
Scott Lee said:
You are apparently forgetting all the discussion lately, about Jasmin Ouschan.
She finished in the top 8, with the best straight pool players on the planet, just a month or so ago...and has already run over 100 several times. She also just finished in the top 8 in a 9-ball event that was all men. Sure hope she decides to play in the DCC next year!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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Scott, your post in only the 3rd in this thread, but I am reading no further until my own post appears and someone responds to it. Why? Because this topic is majorly irritating and also boring. Why? Because I've seen it before - in a standup comedy newsgroup I go to. A-Zbilliards and the standup group are the only ones I frequent.

The arguments are the same in there - ALWAYS. And also - ALWAYS - there are a bunch of people who not only challenge the poster who dares to imply that women are not as good as men at certain things - but also try their damnest to make him look like a fool. But there is truth to his comments, or value at least.

Without reading I can say that it will be argued that women are not generally as good as men in competitive endeavors because there are less women competing than men - and some might even imply that it's because women aren't given the same 'opportunity' as men.

The truth is that from the beginning of time it has been the job of men to go out and get the food, while women stay home nursing the baby. And while on the surface things might look different now, I can assure you overall they are the same as always. A few women might not want kids from the start, but I would say they're a hefty exception. This does not mean women cannot be competitive, just that they're not competing on the same level.

You can name all the good female pool players you want, it means nothing until they get rid of the female league and they are forced to play against men from the very start - no female league to fall back on. That's what get to me. I know Fisher and Corr (especially), are good players who can beat a lot of guys out there. So what? They have their own league to fall back on when the going gets tough.

If they had to play in a genderless league from the start - and no tv commercial spots due to their gender - if they had to do that, you can bet none of them would be making money strictly from playing tournament pool. They'd have to get a day-time job or go out to scummy dives to hustle pool - like a lot of really good male players have to do. This topic annoys be - mainly because I know it resolves nothing - and I also know that most, maybe all, of the those involved in it's discussion have already made up their minds about the topic. I know I have.

Tommy Joe
 
The truth is Tommy Joe that you don't know what the gender roles have been since "the beginning of time."

The women having a league of their own has zero bearing on why women in general are not as strong as men on average when it comes to pool playing.

In fact, you made the argument for me. You named the two top women players and held them up against the hundreds of top male players. What are the odds that the best female player is going to be on par with the best male player when there are so many more male players? Let's see what it looks like when there are eqaul numbers of women playing as seriously as men.

Show me that scenario and then you can prove that women are inferior to men. Until then it boils down to numbers and opportunity. Now, there is plenty of opportunity to play and learn for women so the only thing left is to admit that for every 100 male A players there is a woman who plays that speed. I am sure Tommy, that you would bet getting a 100/1 odds every time.

Sure Allison and Co. probably wouldn't be able to sustain the earnings they need to play pool full time if they had to compete only with men. But, they might surprise you and get that much better as well. I certainly think that Allison, Karen and Kelly are better than a lot of players who make a living despite not being consistent enough to be in the elite.

You're right though about one thing. These conversations resolve nothing. You cling to your opinion which you offer in a thread that you admit is pointless. I post the same thing I have posted a 1000 times before.

Meanwhile the women you disparage are out there playing their hearts out knowing that sexist people will never understand the hills they have to climb for even a little of the recognition that a player with far less accomplishments gets.

John
 
tedkaufman said:
You haven't in any way explained how a woman's breasts could interfer with her pool stroke. I am not talking about a woman who just picked up a pool stick for the first time and faces the cueball square on as if she were pitching horseshoes.
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Clearly we're talking from different points of views. And, because you are on a different page, then this forum will never be a proper medium for you and I to discuss this in any decent fashion. If we're going to talk about "women," then I think it's proper to discuss all women and how they interact with pool, how they become better, and why the numbers of great women are so low. It's an entire story that needs to be examined from the beginning.

I gave a very comprehensive single reason how breast can affect how a woman learns the game. That's just one reason. "Affecting how one learns" doesn't mean that someone can't learn, excel, and overcome.

We're not talking average. We are talking exceptional--a woman who could compeat with men.
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No, we're not. We can't be. IMO, to examine only the top women doesn't paint the full picture. If the question was "how can women help themselves to compete more equally against men," then I think it's worth it to really examine the Karen's and Allison's, which I believe is the absolute best thing to do if I were a woman trying to learn to be a great player at this game. But, that wasn't the question. So, that wasn't my answer.

Cornerman said:
Let's not make this discussin something that it's not, please.
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You make outrageous claims, then when they are challenged you don't want a discussion? Whatever. I guess if I weren't able to substantiate my claims I would head for the exit too.
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Why do you have to make it some kind of personal thing??? When have I ever said anything on this forum that was unsubstantiated such that I'd say it then duck and run??? Never.

Someone (whom I quoted and answered) suggested physical differences in men and women as it pertains to sports, and I mentioned three. How or why or what had no bearing on my answer. Let's not make this discussion something that it's not, as I said.

The study of men vs. women in sports is a long one, not one that could possibly be examined on a forum. I feel I've given the subject many views over the past 10 years. Today, I'll only point out several differences in men and women, and keep it at that. Anyone can draw their own conclusions. I've drawn mine.


Fred
 
On male hand-eye coordination.

RiverCity said:
There are no facts to substantiate any of these type of statements .
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If there were good theories (which there are), would you or anyone seriously entertain them?

Fred
 
onepocketchump said:
The ONLY reason women don't play as well as men ON AVERAGE is purely and only because of the numbers of men who are able to devote signifigant time to pool is FAR greater than the number of women who are able to do so. Consequently there are far more men playing than there are women.
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This is definitely what I believe, John, though I'll put a 1% on the subtle physical difference. You and I can discuss that somewhere over beers. And I'll only talk about the center of gravity.

I do carry it further by saying that of the women who play, even those small numbers will decrease at a greater rate, further lessening the overall "pool" of potentially good/great playing women.

Fred
 
Cameron Smith said:
Anyways...what was I talking about? Oh yeah... girls and pool. I think a more interesting question is, why are women less likely to take up the game? I wouldn't mind discussing that.
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I like this question much better, as well as the question "Why do they drop away?"


Fred
 
I pedict the day will come when there is a woman who plays as good or better than any man. And it will probably happen in Pool sooner than any other competitive sport (i.e Golf or Tennis).
 
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